Arcane Trickster ray build?


Advice


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What I'm wanting to do is create an Arcane Trickster that uses ray attacks to deal sneak attack damage. It seems like a relatively natural progression, but I'm just curious about a few things.

1)Is sorcerer or Wizard going to be better?

2)Will vanish/invisibility allow the sneak attack die to hit?

3)how would you split the levels or rogue/(sorcerer or wizard)?

4) can you use steal in combat at range?

5) what feats would you get to improve rays/ and do combat feats affect rays?

Thanks for your time in advance.


1)Is sorcerer or Wizard going to be better?
Wizard.

2)Will vanish/invisibility allow the sneak attack die to hit?
Yes

3)how would you split the levels or rogue/(sorcerer or wizard)?
3 levels rogue/x Wizard

4) can you use steal in combat at range?
You would definitely recieve some negative modifiers.

5) what feats would you get to improve rays/ and do combat feats affect rays?
There used to be a feat called Dual Wand wielder that made this build amazing...not sure if anything out there now...

I would definitely consider craft wand and the feat that allows you to add your int to your wands DC. This will allow you to have an endless supply of Ray of X.


Questions answered, but I'll add that wizard is better for a couple of reasons. More variety of utility spells and scroll-scribing for having them handy, and...

A high int. bonus gives you more and stronger spells AND more skill points. A high cha bonus helps a sorcerer's spells and cha-related skills, but that's not as good as straight up skill points per level for most characters. You can never have too many skills going for you.


Feat= Reach spell. Turns any damaging spell into a ray


Ctuchik wrote:

What I'm wanting to do is create an Arcane Trickster that uses ray attacks to deal sneak attack damage. It seems like a relatively natural progression, but I'm just curious about a few things.

Generally (and I'm aware some others disagree): playing Arcane Trickster for damage is a trap. It takes well into the midlevels to really even get going, and so, so many stars have to align for the ray/sneak thing to A) work very effectively and B) be a better idea than a hundred other options you have in combat.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Ctuchik wrote:

What I'm wanting to do is create an Arcane Trickster that uses ray attacks to deal sneak attack damage. It seems like a relatively natural progression, but I'm just curious about a few things.

Generally (and I'm aware some others disagree): playing Arcane Trickster for damage is a trap. It takes well into the midlevels to really even get going, and so, so many stars have to align for the ray/sneak thing to A) work very effectively and B) be a better idea than a hundred other options you have in combat.

I know it's not an optimal combat build. The character would be for flavor, and is the best way I can figure to do a skill monkey rogue and still be combat effective. I figure using touch attacks every round will help with the 2 lost levels of BAB.

also with vanish, invis, and greater invis, i think I will be able to get sneak attacks no problem. Also nondetection i think? will aid in this.

ALSO Thank you all for the insight, they were all great points.

And especially thanks lostpike for answering each and every point I had. I figured the range steal would be a large negative, but if it's something I'm going to do I will enhance it with feats.

Sczarni

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Feat= Reach spell. Turns any damaging spell into a ray

There's also Arcane Blast, which I believe works with ANY spell, but only deals (I think) a d6 for each spell level-- Reach Spell would likely do more damage depending on the spell used, but Arcane Blast basically lets you spontaneously cast damaging rays.

Grand Lodge

Arcane trickster is a poor choice, but that is up to you.

1) Vanish/Invisibility will only provide SA for the first ray of multiple ray spells like scorching ray.

2) You're going to be feat starved - Improved Initative, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot are all necessary.

3) You have to be able to cast a 2nd level arcane spell, so you qualify for the class with only 3 levels of wizard.

I would suggest that you take a look at the Witch class because I suspect that there are some good opportunities to use the new base classes instead of the old core ones in prestige classes/builds.


Silent Saturn wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Feat= Reach spell. Turns any damaging spell into a ray
There's also Arcane Blast, which I believe works with ANY spell, but only deals (I think) a d6 for each spell level-- Reach Spell would likely do more damage depending on the spell used, but Arcane Blast basically lets you spontaneously cast damaging rays.

That's actually pretty awesome and something I hadn't considered. Arcane Blast is on par with scorching ray and rays of the same level until you get the second ray from the spell. It would also allow me to have more utility spells that can be converted into offense firepower if they were unneeded.


sieylianna wrote:

Arcane trickster is a poor choice, but that is up to you.

1) Vanish/Invisibility will only provide SA for the first ray of multiple ray spells like scorching ray.

2) You're going to be feat starved - Improved Initative, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot are all necessary.

3) You have to be able to cast a 2nd level arcane spell, so you qualify for the class with only 3 levels of wizard.

I would suggest that you take a look at the Witch class because I suspect that there are some good opportunities to use the new base classes instead of the old core ones in prestige classes/builds.

The witch seems interesting, but I don't see her as being as powerful offensively as the levels of wizard. I would only get 2 hex's until I finished my levels of Arcane Trickster. Also her spell list isn't anywhere near the wizards, and there are less spells where sneak attack would apply. I would almost be using arcane blast exclusively for ranged damage.

On the other hand, she has a lot more utility than anticipated and likely beats a wizard out on this if you are multiclassing.

As of right now though, I would maintain wizard unless you can show me how to make her spells work effectively with sneak attack.


Another thought would be going 3 levels of Ninja instead of rogue and then taking the Ninja trick Vanishing Trick (gives invisibility as a swift action).

You could also go Bard(sandman) or Alchemist (Vivisectionist) for the sneak attack.


sieylianna wrote:

Arcane trickster is a poor choice, but that is up to you.

1) Vanish/Invisibility will only provide SA for the first ray of multiple ray spells like scorching ray.

2) You're going to be feat starved - Improved Initative, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot are all necessary.

3) You have to be able to cast a 2nd level arcane spell, so you qualify for the class with only 3 levels of wizard.

I would suggest that you take a look at the Witch class because I suspect that there are some good opportunities to use the new base classes instead of the old core ones in prestige classes/builds.

A Dex focused ranged character trying to hit flat-footed touch AC doesn't remotely need Precise Shot, or any other hit boosting feats. Enemy ACs won't make it past 14.

You're much better off taking feats to make others lose their Dex, like Greater Feint or Dazzling Display. A wand of Grease works well, too.

Imp Init is good, though.


Ctuchik wrote:
The character would be for flavor, and is the best way I can figure to do a skill monkey rogue and still be combat effective.

No, no, no, no, NO, goddamn it. Why do people think this?

I find the rogue can more than hold his own, and it makes me very, very sad to see people see the arcane trickster (quite possibly the least effective class in play) as a viable alternative. If you really must turn your nose up at the rogue, play a bard (for they are awesome), for christ's sake. Or a straight sorcerer, if you're set on a ray build.

Apologies if I'm being snippy, but it's late, and I've seen far too much rogue bashing of late...

_____________

At risk of stinking up this thread, though... I will actually contribute. I'm gonna go against the grain here and propose you use sorcerer class levels. A crossblooded sorcerer stacking the (primal) elemental and draconic bloodlines gains a +2 on damage per die on his damage spells of any one element. (Perhaps as a pyromaniac gnome as icing on the cake, but that's a matter of taste.

You're now looking at 8d6+16 on your scorching rays at level 6 as a straight sorcerer... which outclasses anything an arcane trickster will achieve with his situational sneak attack dice. (Ranged sneak attack is a b%$#& to pull off at the best of times.) I can see it working, just seems to me you lose more than you gain when you multiclass.

As for a straight rogue... well, I can sense they're not welcome here, but I can assure you with a little strength, some extra attacks (boots of haste and/or two weapon fighting) and you'll definately be pulling your weight. Food for thought.

_____________

Hope this is helpful despite my blatant fantaicism. :)


Going with my idea of also using lots of wands. Dont forget to consider the feat Wand Dancer which lets you move before and after item triggers.

Grand Lodge

Quantum Steve wrote:
A Dex focused ranged character trying to hit flat-footed touch AC doesn't remotely need Precise Shot, or any other hit boosting feats. Enemy ACs won't make it past 14.

If you have billed yourself as a specialist in ranged touch spells, you absolutely have to have Point Blank and Precise Shot. An enemy with cover, in combat, means you effectively are attacking AC 22, not AC 14 (without point blank and precise). A 20 Dexterity and low BAB is going to miss more often than not under these circumstances.


sieylianna wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
A Dex focused ranged character trying to hit flat-footed touch AC doesn't remotely need Precise Shot, or any other hit boosting feats. Enemy ACs won't make it past 14.
If you have billed yourself as a specialist in ranged touch spells, you absolutely have to have Point Blank and Precise Shot. An enemy with cover, in combat, means you effectively are attacking AC 22, not AC 14 (without point blank and precise). A 20 Dexterity and low BAB is going to miss more often than not under these circumstances.

I disagree. I think these are overkill. You are always going against touch AC so on average max you will have to hit is 14-16 AC. On rare occassions that you have to hit something higher true strike it.


sieylianna wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
A Dex focused ranged character trying to hit flat-footed touch AC doesn't remotely need Precise Shot, or any other hit boosting feats. Enemy ACs won't make it past 14.
If you have billed yourself as a specialist in ranged touch spells, you absolutely have to have Point Blank and Precise Shot. An enemy with cover, in combat, means you effectively are attacking AC 22, not AC 14 (without point blank and precise). A 20 Dexterity and low BAB is going to miss more often than not under these circumstances.

Very few enemies will have ACs above 10 and even then not until high levels. Many of the tougher monsters in the bestiary are large or larger, reducing touch AC even further. Enemy have cover? Take a step out from behind the Fighter; it's usually not that hard to find a clear line of sight, archers do it all the time.

Anyway, even with low Bab, till level 11 you'll never be more than 2 points behind a straight Rogue. Add +4 for melee and even another +4 for cover if you can't avoid it. Most monsters lose more than 10 points of AC if you deny them armour, nat amour and Dex. If they don't, they probably had less than 20AC to begin with.

Edit: Almost forgot. Large enemies almost never benefit from being in melee or soft cover. That's the majority of monsters in the Bestiary over CR 8.


lostpike wrote:

Another thought would be going 3 levels of Ninja instead of rogue and then taking the Ninja trick Vanishing Trick (gives invisibility as a swift action).

You could also go Bard(sandman) or Alchemist (Vivisectionist) for the sneak attack.

Unfortunately the Sandman only gets a sneak attack di every 5th level which is too slow to go arcane trickster early. Vivisectionist gets it quick enough, but the alchemist is such a niche class, it's really only made to multiclass with master chemist.

I'm not finding the spell selection with him that I would like. They are mostly self buffs and poisons. I thought the sneak attack and bombs would be cool but one replaces the other...so no go. Otherwise I would just roll vivisectionist and instead of rays use bombs.

Oh well, looks like rogue/wizard is still what I'm doing. I don't have ultimate combat yet, but if Ninja is promising then I shall sub that in for the levels of rogue.


Any advice for getting more than one ranged sneak attack in a round? (besides two wands)


powerdemon wrote:
Any advice for getting more than one ranged sneak attack in a round? (besides two wands)

As far as I know, there is no method to activate two wands in a single round using Paizo Material.

According to FAQ spells only deal sneak attack damage once per round if they are "instantaneous". Which is pretty vague. Generally speaking just assume you wont be getting sneak attack more than once with the casting of a single spell. So, the only way I can think of to get more than 1 sneak attack with spells is to cast a spell and a quickened spell.

Otherwise...be a 10th level ninja with greater invisibility and start chucking shurikens or firing a bow.

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