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The rules say that "Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp." I guess what I'm asking is whether spell completion or spell trigger items used to meet creation requirements qualify as "magic supplies."
No, they're an additional cost.
Second, I know that there was a recent erratum on this point, but I'm still a little confused. The rules say that requirements for creating an item (except for the item creation feat) can be ignored if the Spellcraft DC to complete the item is raised by +5. The new erratum states that the requirements for "potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item" cannot be ignored, but it says nothing about wondrous items. So, could the invisibility-lacking elven wizard above forgo the 900 gp purchase of potions and instead make an item for which he doesn't know the spell just by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC?
If that's the only prerequisite he fails to meet, yes. The update alters the rule only to add potions to the list of items for which the spell requirement can't be bypassed.
Also i don't think that potions can be used that way since potions are use-activated and not spell completion.
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Yes, you can add +5 to the Spellcraft DC to create a Cloak of Elvenkind without an invisibility spell. You could also add +5 to the DC to create if your character isn't an elf.
So, a Sorcerer or Wizard can create Amulets of Natural Armor without access to the barkskin spell, for example, just by adding +5 to the DC.
A character with Craft Rod can create metamagic rods without having any metamagic feats, again just by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC.
An evil necromancer with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor can create a Holy Avenger, without access to holy aura, and without being of good alignment, by adding +10 to the Spellcraft DC. That is sort of nutty.
The magic item creation rules are kind of borked that way.
An evil necromancer with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor can create a Holy Avenger, without access to holy aura, and without being of good alignment, by adding +10 to the Spellcraft DC. That is sort of nutty.
Yes he can surely create it (assuming he can manage the +10 DC) but he must carefull not to touch it after creation.
Remember that the prices are guidelines. Especially for wondrous items and rings new items should be compared against existing items and the higher cost between the one derived from the rules or the existing item should be used as a baseline for the cost of the item.
I think that the OP is trying to make magic items that are already in the books and not create new ones.
Ok first of all caster level isn't a requirement for wondrous items and rings, it is a requirement for potions, scrolls, wands and staves and it can't be ignored with a +5 DC, it is requirement for weapon and armors and it's debatable whether it can be ignored or not*.
Now money isn't the only restrain to crafting, time is as well and that's because on almost** all adventures there are at least some time constraints.
*The devs have said to us (the last time we asked) that they are thinking about it.
**Kingmker is maybe the only canon adventure that has virtually unlimited time and in that game crafting feats should be banned.
Also i don't think that potions can be used that way since potions are use-activated and not spell completion.
Potions... probably not.
Oils on the other hand... I'd allow those. So a vial of Oil of Magic Weapon, for example, I'd allow to count as a casting of Magic Weapon when enchanting an item (if that spell was the prereq). Oils are designed to be used on items, not people, so I think those could be used as part of the enchantment.
Ok first of all caster level isn't a requirement for wondrous items and rings...This is my point. Doesn't it seem like caster level should be an unavoidable requirement for any magic item? On the other hand, maybe this change was intended to make crafting loads easier in Pathfinder. Glad to hear the devs are working on it.
No, no, no.
You misunderstood me, i said that they were thinking about the caster level requirement of weapons and armors and not caster level in general.Caster level was a requirement for creating magic items in the 1st printing of the core, then it was errata'd out (i think that they just over copied from 3.5), then it was put again by mistake in the 1st printing of APG, then at the first errata they removed (more bad copy paste).
Anyway i personally think it's kinda stupid for rings and wondrous items to have caster level requirements so i think that the PF rules are on the right side on this one.
If you don't want to ban them you have to manage with how much you give to the party and how much time you give them.
Also about the DCs, yes they might seem quite easy when you are viewing them from a wizard/magus/witch side, if you view them from the point of view of anyone else who doesn't has INT as a primary stat, try running your calculations with a +0 or -1 INT mod on spellcraft.
Because some times there isn't an INT based caster on the group or because the wizard and the cleric (for example) decide to each take one crafting feat, so that they don't gimp their builds too much.
A 9th level character with max ranks in spellcraft and no INT mod has a total mod of 12. That means that he can safely create anything with a DC of 22 or lower, that is not much for 9th level.
And to what feats, items or circumstantial bonuses are you thinking?
A 9th level character with max ranks in spellcraft and no INT mod has a total mod of 12. That means that he can safely create anything with a DC of 22 or lower, that is not much for 9th level./QUOTE]
And yet he can still craft an item with a CL 3 levels higher than his actual level. Without rolling.Again, if that's how Paizo wants Pathfinder to be, that's fine. It just means I have to be more on my toes as a DM to make sure my players don't go too crazy - and get too powerful - while crafting items.
And to what feats, items or circumstantial bonuses are you thinking?How about Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Headband of Vast Intelligence, scarlet and blue ioun stone, Aid Another... just off the top of my head.Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus (spellcraft) aren't good feat choices, so there isn't much chance of happening.
Headband of Vast Intelligence isn't a choice since those casters want a headband that increases their casting stat and if you want to have two stats in the same item the cost goes up way high fast.
On the ioun stone you have a point but iirc the cost is 8000, not a cost one will pay even at 9 level only for a +1 at crafting and one skill at maximum.
I don't think that you can aid another in crafting magic items without a specific feat but even if you can i am sure that you must also have the appropriate craft feat, also not seeing this happening.
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Ok first of all caster level isn't a requirement for wondrous items and rings...This is my point. Doesn't it seem like caster level should be an unavoidable requirement for any magic item? On the other hand, maybe this change was intended to make crafting loads easier in Pathfinder. Glad to hear the devs are working on it.No, no, no.
You misunderstood me, i said that they were thinking about the caster level requirement of weapons and armors and not caster level in general.
Caster level was a requirement for creating magic items in the 1st printing of the core, then it was errata'd out (i think that they just over copied from 3.5), then it was put again by mistake in the 1st printing of APG, then at the first errata they removed (more bad copy paste).
Anyway i personally think it's kinda stupid for rings and wondrous items to have caster level requirements so i think that the PF rules are on the right side on this one.If you don't want to ban them you have to manage with how much you give to the party and how much time you give them.
Also about the DCs, yes they might seem quite easy when you are viewing them from a wizard/magus/witch side, if you view them from the point of view of anyone else who doesn't has INT as a primary stat, try running your calculations with a +0 or -1 INT mod on spellcraft.
Nothing force you to use spellcraft.
You can use the appropriate crafting skill, benefit from the +3 of it being a class skill and +2 from masterwork tools. Instant +5 to the skill.To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Sure, using a craft skill instead of spellcraft limit you somewhat. Craft Magic Arms and Armor require 3 craft skills to cover all the options (melee weapons , bows and armor) instead of one, but as soon as you have enough cash there is a easy solution for that.
You will buy multiple headband of vast intelligence +2, each one with a different crafting skills that interest you (you can even make them if you have craft wondrous items, it only require paying for the help from someone with the skill [apparently at what level is indifferent] and you would be capable to construct a headband with the needed skill in two days).
Don the right headband and after 24 hours you will have the skill at your character level. And you will even enjoy a increase in intelligence, with the concurrent +1 in your crafting ability.
Using the craft skills the DC become trivial unless the items has 3+ prerequisites you are lacking.
About the items CL, from the FAQ:
What is the caster level required to create a pearl of power?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
From that quote and other comments, you can set the CL of a item you craft (and so his DC) to whatever level you want, as long it is high enough to cast the spell(s) required to make the item.
The only exception are the enhancement bonus of weapon and armors (the + to hit, damage and AC). For them there is a special prerequisite: you must have x3 the enhancement bonus to make the item.
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Also about the DCs, yes they might seem quite easy when you are viewing them from a wizard/magus/witch side, if you view them from the point of view of anyone else who doesn't has INT as a primary stat, try running your calculations with a +0 or -1 INT mod on spellcraft.Why?
Why would anyone with a -1 modifier in Intelligence take item creation feats as opposed to any other feat that would actually do them good?
Put another way, why wouldn't a character who plans to craft items also plan on making their Spellcraft skill as high as possible? They know they're going to need it.
But just for the sake of argument, let's consider a 9th level druid who has a 10 (+0) Int, full ranks in Spellcraft (9) and trained bonus (+3). She can still create any CL 12 wondrous item without rolling, assuming she meets all the other requirements. And that's before any items, feats or other circumstantial bonuses (to which a 9th level character would probably have access) that would add to her Spellcraft check.
I wasn't aware that the rules had actually been altered to allow this. It seems that the devs really do want item crafting to be a lot easier in Pathfinder than in 3.5. Which is fine, I just didn't realize it until now.
Then again in 3.5 the Druid could Dump IQ, avoid spellcraft and still automatically craft anythign up to there appropriate level.
15th level Druid in 3.5 with a 7 int and 0 ransk in spellcraft decides she wants a +5 Scimitar. You got the feat? cool make it automatic success.
Same druid in Pathfinder.. "You got the feat?" Cool now go hire someone with skill to make it for you don't you feel stupid buying that feat? Though if they had the skill despite being only 7 int they would be able to make it simply.
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.
So a druid with 7 intelligence but that has taken a skill in spellcraft at every level, at level 15 has (minimum level to make a +5 scimitar):
+15 skill, -2 int modifier, +3 class skill = +16
DC of the spellcraft skill = 5+15= 20
The druid will beat it 100% of the time, as he can take 10 and get a result of 26 without any problem.
If he get a headband with a +2 bonus in intelligence and the spellcraft skill he will not even need to train the spellcraft skill and he will get a +1 to his skill total.
No, the spellcraft/craft skills isn't a problem.
Headband of Vast Intelligence isn't a choice since those casters want a headband that increases their casting stat and if you want to have two stats in the same item the cost goes up way high fast.
The cost is increased only for the secondary abilitie, a headband with +6 wisdom and +2 intelligence cost only 8.000 gp more than a plain +6 wisdom headband.
[6.000 gp, Paizo not only use the x2 increase (no slot) but the x75% (similar ability) discount too.]
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Just to note, any group of adventurers that wants to do their crafting of items should invest in a handful of +2 headbands of Int. Each one with a different skill. Spellcraft, Craft(Type), etc.
More than likely, the wizard is going to have his spellcraft maxed out, but the cleric, druid and sorcerer probably won't. If you're going to do enchanting, get everyone together and rent a lab and go to work. Wear the bands for 24 hours prior to starting, and you have maxed out ranks in the appropriate skills for whatever you are making. Even the fighter can get in on it, although he has to invest at least 5 skill points in a craft skill (although once he does that, he can get the feat and use a headband to max out his skill at crafting time).
Honestly, a haversack full of +2 bands of INT with different skills on each one should be part of the toolbox of any adventuring group after about level 8 or 9. It's just too useful to be able to switch out the skills if you have 24 hours notice you need it (for example, if you know you're group is going to be going to a ball the king is throwing, either diplomacy or Knowledge (royalty) is a no brainer, especially for the 7 cha barbarian that normally drools in the punch bowl).
@Diego Rossi
I haven't thought of having multiple heandbands of INT in order to have different crafting skills and then to get +2 from masterwork. But don't think that 4000gp (2000 crafted) in order to get +2 is a bit too much? (assuming you have maxed spellcraft)
If you don't have maxed spellcraft i can understand this to be a very good way for non INT based characters.
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@Diego Rossi
I haven't thought of having multiple heandbands of INT in order to have different crafting skills and then to get +2 from masterwork. But don't think that 4000gp (2000 crafted) in order to get +2 is a bit too much? (assuming you have maxed spellcraft)If you don't have maxed spellcraft i can understand this to be a very good way for non INT based characters.
It is mostly for character without maxed spellcraft or the Master Craftsman that don't want to take more than 5 ranks in the skill.
If you want to have mutiple exchangeable skills but don't want to remove your headband of wisdom/charisma when enchanting you can even constructs earrings of vast intelligence +2 with the desired skills.
They would cost 8.000 gp (x2 the basic cost as they are slotless) instead of 4.000, but especially if they are a group buy as mdt suggested they are a very good investment.
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As an aside, I dislike this "skill in the headband" mechanic. Paizo has chosen it as it allow for easier bookkeeping, but I, in my campaign, require the characters to actually select and train the skills they will get from a item that increase intelligence.
When they lose that increase in intelligence they will lose access to the skills, when they don a item increasing their intelligence again (the same item or a different item) they get the access back up to the level granted by the item.
The idea that an ancient Azantli intellect headband with Knowledge (royalty) will grant knowledge of today rulers and court etiquette but not of ancient Azantli rulers and court etiquette as that would be Knowledge (history) don't sit well with me.
The idea that an ancient Azantli intellect headband with Knowledge (royalty) will grant knowledge of today rulers and court etiquette but not of ancient Azantli rulers and court etiquette as that would be Knowledge (history) don't sit well with me.
See, to me, the Ancient Azantli Knowledge(Royalty) would, after a hundred years, become Knowledge (History : Azantli Royalty) and would be very useful to a scholar studying them, but useless to everyone else. :)
It is mostly for character without maxed spellcraft or the Master Craftsman that don't want to take more than 5 ranks in the skill.
Yes those too.
If you want to have mutiple exchangeable skills but don't want to remove your headband of wisdom/charisma when enchanting you can even constructs earrings of vast intelligence +2 with the desired skills.
They would cost 8.000 gp (x2 the basic cost as they are slotless) instead of 4.000, but especially if they are a group buy as mdt suggested they are a very good investment.
Now you are getting to custom items, i know that the formula to calculate that is pretty simple but since there isn't a headband with +4 WIS (or any stat) and +2 INT (or any stat) and all canon headbands have the same number for both stats, then what you are suggesting is a custom item. And if you go to custom items why don't you craft yourself let's say gloves of spellcraft +5.
As an aside, I strongly dislike this "skill in the headband" mechanic. Paizo has chosen it as it allow for easier bookkeeping, but I, in my campaign, require the characters to actually select and train the skills they will get from a item that increase intelligence.
It's not only for less bookeeping, is also for not having players removing it and re-donning it to get other skills every 24 hours.
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See, to me, the Ancient Azantli Knowledge(Royalty) would, after a hundred years, become Knowledge (History : Azantli Royalty) and would be very useful to a scholar studying them, but useless to everyone else. :)
The idea that an ancient Azantli intellect headband with Knowledge (royalty) will grant knowledge of today rulers and court etiquette but not of ancient Azantli rulers and court etiquette as that would be Knowledge (history) don't sit well with me.
A reasonable option, but "skill on demand" can penalize the skill intensive classes. It is a matter of taste.
You approach will work very well for an intelligent item.
A item with high ranks in Knowledge (Arcana: Azantli) or Knowledge (arcana: Thassalon) would be worth millions in today Golarion.
It's not only for less bookeeping, is also for not having players removing it and re-donning it to get other skills every 24 hours.
My system get the same result, the players use the extra intelligence point to "buy" permanent skills that are accessible only when they wear the headband.
For me it get the added bonus that they can't get several headbands with different skills and swap when needed.