|
If you're charging your fellow players as a roleplay thing, I'm fine with that. But, that's not what is being said above. In your real world example, you specifically said 'I quote an outrageous sum, or I only do it for close friends'.Now, I would hope the PCs are close friends, but if they aren't, and the above posters who say 'I is losing my down time' are honest about it, then they will do the same thing. "Sure, I'll make a +1 sword for you. 10,000 gold please!". Nobody will do so, and then it's end of them asking for you to craft.
Even in fiction an adventuring party is not necessarily made by "best friends", I see even less reasons why the characters should be best friends.
They are comrades, they work well together, but that don't make them friends, especially in a game where you can have parties with people with opposite alignments or world-views.Celaxian LN monk: "Slavery is the natural state for halflings"
CG cleric of Cayden: "Everyone should be free."
Party leader: "There is an invasion of spawns of Rovagug, let's go kill them"
Both guys: "Fine"
After killing the spawns: LN Monk "Dammit, a amulet of mighty fists would have been handy."
Cleric: "I could make one and give you a deal, I will make it a 75% of market price."
Friends? No
Offering better than normal conditions as you have worked together and you will benefit directly (extra gold) and indirectly (a more efficient comrade) from the sale? Yes.
You start from an assumption "The guys are friends" and then build from there without ever explaining that you are taking that assumption from granted so you get to a conclusion that is valid only if you take that assumption as your starting point.
I have seen characters gifting stuff, paying the money and xp to make them, because the other guys was a friend in game and characters tranquilly ripping each other off because the other guys wasn't a friend in game. The important thing is that both things are done in game and related to the characters.
If the players are friends, lovers or only acquaintances that meet only to play together should not be reflected on the characters.
What is really being done is the wizard is siphoning all the gold up into his own pockets and then crafting himself 3 or 6 or 9 times more equipment. Artificially inflating his own WBL at the expense of his friends. People can cloak that in any sort of rationalization they want, it's still powergaming and ruining the balance of the party for their own aggrandizement. Especially as the tediousness you have to live through is a 30 second 'roll your die' interlude in the game.
And we return to roll-playing.
The 30 days spent enchanting stuff for the other party members are rolled away with a few spellcraft rolls.
The other guys are doing .... what? Nothing, frozen dices.
If that is the logic of the game, fine. Downtime is only some dice roll then it is worth nothing.
But even subscribing to the logic "downtime is only a few dice rolls" why the other guys aren't rolling theirs?
Rogue/Bard/Face: "I want to expand my contacts. I will roll diplomacy a few times and try to get a few friends in the local merchant guilds." Roll, success.
To the other characters: "Hey guys, I have made a deal with Fonzo the weapon dealer, if we sell weapons only to him and not to Bargo he will pay us 10% over standard purchase price and sell stuff to us at a 10% discount. As I have made the agreement with him you have to pass through me to do the sales and purchases. I will keep half of the extra money and of the discount."
Other guys: "An extra 5% for us. Why not?"
Druid/Ranger: "Hey [insert character name] you have that new axebeak mount. I can train if as a combat mount. It will cost me 6 weeks of work and I will do it for X money. No one can do that in this city. Deal?" "Yes/No/make it 75% of X."
If the deal is made, roll a few Handle animal checks.
No one is forced in accepting a deal but no one is forced to spend his time for no reward.
Sure, some classes will have a easier time making money from those dice rolls and some will get more money from them, but everyone could find a way to make extra money with a few dice rolls if he wish.
And as it has been often repeated, any character class and NPC class can take a some of the item construction feat. So if the fighter want his beautiful sword at a lower cost he can take the feat and make it on specs.
He could even get money from the spellcaster making weapons for him while the splellcaster go and take craft wand, something that a fighter can't do.
Better life for everyone. I will trade you this wondrous item worth 10K for that weapon worth 10k. We are both happy as we have spent only 5K and we have the item we want.
Also, crafting totally horks up WBL in a way that the GM has to deal with in the end... leaving it in the hands of the players will likely not end well unless they share a common goal.
Crafting always destroys WBL guidelines, unless one takes the approach some advocate, that no matter how much you craft, you will only ever receive enough treasure to be in the appropiate WBL.
The only other way I have found so far to semi-balance it, is by limiting the players time to craft, via "plot moves forward" methods, or to prohibit magic item crafting completely, when the aforementioned method is not doable, as in Kingmaker.
As a GM, if I find WBL is getting out of whack, I tend to fix it via item breakage/theft if one party is way ahead of the curve, or tailored treasure if the rest of the group is way behind. If a 8th level party had all gotten nothing but GP wealth, and ended up buying all items at a 25% discount from the wizard, you'd be looking at this:
Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue each have 33,000 gp to spend.
Wizard crafts himself 66,000 gp worth of items.
Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue each pay the wizard 33,000 gp. Instead of getting 66,000 gp worth of items each, they instead get 49,500 gp of items each. The Wizard takes the 24,750 profit and crafts ANOTHER 49,500 gp worth of goods for himself.
In the first adventure post-crafting, the Wizard is sitting at 115,500gp of gear and spells. Well over DOUBLE any individual part member. He's got the WBL of a 12th level character, while the rest of the party is just over level 9.
Given that wizards are already powerhouses, unless the party is incredibly laid back about things and don't mind one character being even more grossly overpowered, this is going to cause fits for the GM. The GM is already, in a balanced WBL campaign, trying to make sure martials aren't overshadowed by full casters. Throw this huge WBL disparity on top of the mix, and you have to hope the Wizard is incredibly inept and unoptimized while the rest are hardcore CharOp guys...
So roleplaying Wizards of Abadar aside, accusations of mercenary or greedy or selfish behavior... this is an actual game issue that the GM will need to deal with.
Beware Marshall, I've already posted this argument above. I am apparently a WrongBadFun GM because I care about game balance, and taking away toys from the wizard make you (and me) WrongBadFun GMs because we don't RightThink the way we should. The Wizard spent a feat, so obviously he get's to win the game, since he get's so few of them, and the rest of the characters can just suck it up that they are loooooosers.
Sorry Marshall, just very jaded after reading all that garbage above (not your post, the garbage up thread).
Also, crafting totally horks up WBL in a way that the GM has to deal with in the end... leaving it in the hands of the players will likely not end well unless they share a common goal.Crafting always destroys WBL guidelines, unless one takes the approach some advocate, that no matter how much you craft, you will only ever receive enough treasure to be in the appropiate WBL.
The only other way I have found so far to semi-balance it, is by limiting the players time to craft, via "plot moves forward" methods, or to prohibit magic item crafting completely, when the aforementioned method is not doable, as in Kingmaker.
So, because it breaks WBL, we should just hand wave and say 'Oh well, no way to fix it, everyone go forward at maximum full steam ahead and let's see how many bajillion pieces we can get when the cart comes off the track and slams into the hill at 1/3rd the speed of light!'?
Better life for everyone. I will trade you this wondrous item worth 10K for that weapon worth 10k. We are both happy as we have spent only 5K and we have the item we want.
Oddly enough, this one we actually agree on.
I prefer doing stuff like this in game, rather than buy/sell/craft. In a previous game, everyone was from a major city (small country in one city) that had been under martial law for a thousand years. The economy was fixed by decree. Things were buyable/sellable at a specific amount. The result was that most people in the city didn't buy or sell things at high expense, instead they traded items back and forth, based on inherent value. So you'd get someone trading a family heirloom +2 Flaming Lance to someone else who had a +3 Elven Chain and a +1 Axe, for example (and no, I didn't calculate if those two were 'equal', it's an example).
In my current game, when the PCs walk in with some oddity that's worth a lot of money, quite often shop keepers will trade with them. They brought in a +1 lance and traded it for a +1 Breastplate. Not perfectly even trade, but, there's less demand for a +1 lance (especially in the area they were in, where only Paladins really use them) than there is for a +1 breastplate. So they got about 75-85% value for the trade.
|
|
Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue each have 33,000 gp to spend.Wizard crafts himself 66,000 gp worth of items.
Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue each pay the wizard 33,000 gp. Instead of getting 66,000 gp worth of items each, they instead get 49,500 gp of items each. The Wizard takes the 24,750 profit and crafts ANOTHER 49,500 gp worth of goods for himself.
In the first adventure post-crafting, the Wizard is sitting at 115,500gp of gear and spells. Well over DOUBLE any individual part member. He's got the WBL of a 12th level character, while the rest of the party is just over level 9.
Given that wizards are already powerhouses, unless the party is incredibly laid back about things and don't mind one character being even more grossly overpowered, this is going to cause fits for the GM. The GM is already, in a balanced WBL campaign,...
The wizard has spent the last 260 day crafting.
The party had 260 days of downtime?There was something forcing the other members of the party to wait for the wizard (cleric, oracle, sorcerer, druid, fighter with the relevant feats, whatever) to finish?
If the only barrier was the metagaming "We should wait for the player", there is some reason why the player couldn't roll up a extra character or use a cohort and play with that while his "crafter" character was busy?
"But the crafter character will lose xp"
Apparently the problem is him becoming too powerful with his accumulated gear. Instead of taking away the feat you give him the choice between staying behind in xp and ahead in gear or getting a small advantage in gear but being available to go on missions on the spot.
He could do his enchanting while on the march. Perfect: he will need 1.040 days to make that gear.
After 1.040 days of game time the group will probably have gained several levels and the difference in gear will be way less relevant.
The problem is not the feat or item production, is reducing it to "a few dice rolls during downtime" and giving apparently unlimited downtime.
I should probably point out that given the non-linear costs of magical items, someone with double WBL, while being more powerful, is not far and away more powerful to the point of utter dominance. Twice the money does not equal twice the power, and the majority of a spellcaster's power is going to come from spellcasting, thanks to action economy. It's those darn Rods of Quicken Spell that might present a problem, though.
Beware Marshall, I've already posted this argument above. I am apparently a WrongBadFun GM because I care about game balance, and taking away toys from the wizard make you (and me) WrongBadFun GMs because we don't RightThink the way we should. The Wizard spent a feat, so obviously he get's to win the game, since he get's so few of them, and the rest of the characters can just suck it up that they are loooooosers....
No worries. Also, I'll actually answer the subject of the thread:
In the last game I ran, I didn't allow crafting. Period. I also didn't hand out any magic treasure beyond something you'd roll on the 'minor' table for standard combats, AND there wasn't a magic item economy in the game.
If you wanted a specific item better than a +1 weapon/armor/ring/cloak, you researched it, talked to bards, pored through libraries, listened to rumors, and went and QUESTED for it. It was a very sandboxy campaign, and completely avoided the 'big six'.
In the game I'm currently planning, the PCs are all enslaved gladiators (regardless of character class), and they get whatever weapons, items, and armor the arena masters think is appropriate for the upcoming match... if they're lucky, they'll become known for a stylistic piece of armor or a specific weapon that the crowd will expect to see, but otherwise, they have no real expectations of what will be available any given fight.
I find that allowing crafting makes for a very cookie-cutter game experience. It's fun now and then, but I prefer items to have some character to them, rather than being a list of bonuses. For every crafter that makes interesting custom items with a backstory and flavor, there's 10 who say 'I craft a headband, half off, WOO HOO my save DC's just went up and I got some more bonus spells!' There's only so often I can stomach that before I, as a GM or player, want to do something different.
The wizard has spent the last 260 day crafting.
The party had 260 days of downtime?
The assumption here is that the characters have downtime, yes.
If there is no downtime, then no one is getting the benefit of crafting. I, as GM, can declare that you don't even get travel crafting because you're not in a safe area.
People generally play roleplaying games to play a hero, and if one person is crafting, the others are likely to be waiting on him. You could let each person have a stable of characters, of course, so the Wizard player can have a 2nd character to go off on adventures while he crafts. But then, so could everyone else.
And also, my issue isn't so much with 'the character will become too powerful'... WBL is a guideline, and you can break it if you like. My issue is with 'I spend 65 days crafting! I got an extra 33,000 gold of gear!' and the fighter saying 'I spent 65 days on caravan duty. I got an extra 500 gold'.
The power disparity is the issue, and the more permissive crafting is, the worse it becomes. As such, I dislike allowing crafting in games where the party isn't taking significant steps between each other to ensure power-parity.
Am I reading this right that there are PCs who charge their fellow PCs for item creation for more than what it just costs to make?
No, if you read the OP from the start it is:
Warrior type: - Caster player, you should take the craft weapon and armor feat and make my weapons at production cost.
Caster type: - No way I will ask for compensation, 75% of market price.
Warrior type: - no, production cost.
Caster type: - I will take craft wands.
I see, I was trying to follow the thread but was having trouble. Thanks for the clarification.
I've got no further comment except that this sounds more like a player issue in the guise of a rules issue. I hope it works out okay.
So, because it breaks WBL, we should just hand wave and say 'Oh well, no way to fix it, everyone go forward at maximum full steam ahead and let's see how many bajillion pieces we can get when the cart comes off the track and slams into the hill at 1/3rd the speed of light!'?
I am just pointing out that crafting always presents a problem for WBL. Unless you take the route of simply diminishing the total treasure to adjust for that ( something I am personally loathe to do, since I am using AP's and don't want to deal with the hassle of re-calculating treasure values ), you can either speed up the campaign or prohibit crafting completely.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if most players end up with 125% WBL and the Wizard with 225%, the whole system is broken anyway. Outside of getting a +5 Book and a Rod of Quickening, to be honest I can't think of many items which make the Wizard/Sorcerer so much better by having them. They benefit much less from good weapons and getting defensive stuff just makes them less likely to die... something Wizards/Sorcerers are already really good at.
To take my own example, my Sorcerer has been profiting a good bit from crafting for his group. The thing he is shooting for at the moment? A Cape of the Mountebank, since I greatly fear for him being grappled. That's not exactly a super-powerful item, but rather more of a gimmick. The next thing he'll get for his "extra" money is probably a Rod of Lesser Extend, for utility stuff.
|
|
In the end, it doesn't really matter if most players end up with 125% WBL and the Wizard with 225%, the whole system is broken anyway.
If the crafting feats are a quick road to excessive WBl, why the other guys aren't taking them?
Anyone can take master craftsman and then craft weapon and armor or craft wondrous items. Master craftsman is a bit restrictive but 1 guy maximizing the weaponsmith or armorsmith craft and taking the feat can supply all the party and don't need to know any spell.In alternative it is possible to take skills as jeweller and construct a large number of wondrous items.
Even better "partial" spellcaster can take all the enchanting feats without the need for master craftsman and they will even have at least some spell, so less problems with the increase in DC for missing spells.
"The wizard will take the enchanting feats" is a form of laziness. Any class with spell progression up to level 6th spells can take the feats at the same level of a wizard.
The classes with spells up to level 4th can take it 3 level after the wizard and have a Cl 3 lower, but for a good number of items even that isn't a big problem.
So there is not a big conspiracy where the wizard has the monopoly of crafting items. It is simple mental laziness: wizard = magic item crafter, without much willingness to explore other options.
|
My conclusions, both from this thread and from playing the game:
Crafting rules are broken. Also, WBL rules are broken. And to make things even more fun, even attempting a sane economy where adventurers are involved is completely unpossible.
My possible solution:
WBL tables should be ignored. The GM should decide how much money the PCs should be able to gain access to at whatever point in their careers. And sometimes accidents, both lucky and unlucky, occur. Maybe the first level party finds a massive forgotten treasure with nothing substantial guarding it. Maybe the 16th level fighter cares not for money or shiny toys, and lets the rest of the party have his share as long as they provide him with a place to sleep and his daily mutton.
Eliminate magical item creation feats, otehr than scrolls. All other magic items are the relics of a time when magic was stronger...but the secrets of how they were created is lost to the mists of time. This will actually make characters look at items they find as treasure as more than just crap to trade in at the next Mega-Magi-Mart.
|
|
Eliminate magical item creation feats, otehr than scrolls. All other magic items are the relics of a time when magic was stronger...but the secrets of how they were created is lost to the mists of time. This will actually make characters look at items they find as treasure as more than just crap to trade in at the next Mega-Magi-Mart.
No potions or wands production? Remove all the easily produced expendable items and you will completely change the balance of the game.
Clerics and Oracles will be squeezed in the healbot role and a lot of classes will see a reduction in versatility (beside the question of what would happen to the Alchemist).
It would be feasible but vastly different from Pathfinder.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if most players end up with 125% WBL and the Wizard with 225%, the whole system is broken anyway.If the crafting feats are a quick road to excessive WBl, why the other guys aren't taking them?
Anyone can take master craftsman and then craft weapon and armor or craft wondrous items. Master craftsman is a bit restrictive but 1 guy maximizing the weaponsmith or armorsmith craft and taking the feat can supply all the party and don't need to know any spell.
The only class with enough feats to be able to drop two feats and craft without ruining their builds is the fighter. Most fighters don't have the skill points to crank Craft up high enough to make the DC's (Since they will always be at least 5 higher than the caster, sometimes 10 or even 15, depending on how many pre-reqs they can't meet). This applies to most classes other than rogue (skill point wise).
Also, the explosive WBL to the craft only really becomes problematic when he's siphoning off his travelling companions wealth as well. If he's making items at cost, then the entire party is over WBL by roughly the same amount. A GM can compensate for that relatively easily (it's a flat bonus to effective character level, thus evenly affecting encounter levels). However, if he's charging 75 or 80 or 90 percent of market value to his friends, his personal WBL increases dramatically, and his friends is reduced in relation to his, since part of theirs is going to the wizard. This is VERY hard for the GM to compensate for, if the wizard (who at mid to high levels is already a major force on the battlefield) and he's got now metamagic rods, staves, bracers of armor, robes of magi, a dozen wands in his belt (one for each occasion), permanent spells, etc.
Also, the explosive WBL to the craft only really becomes problematic when he's siphoning off his travelling companions wealth as well. If he's making items at cost, then the entire party is over WBL by roughly the same amount. A GM can compensate for that relatively easily (it's a flat bonus to effective character level, thus evenly affecting encounter levels). However, if he's charging 75 or 80 or 90 percent of market value to his friends, his personal WBL increases dramatically, and his friends is reduced in relation to his, since part of theirs is going to the wizard. This is VERY hard for the GM to compensate for, if the wizard (who at mid to high levels is already a major force on the battlefield) and he's got now metamagic rods, staves, bracers of armor, robes of magi, a dozen wands in his belt (one for each occasion), permanent spells, etc.
No, the WBL of his friends still is at up to 125% of normal WBL, if we go by the 75% of market price. So they are "only" somewhat overpowered and the Wizard is the one who is just leading the pack on that account.
And adjusting for an inflated WBL is quite difficult on pre-written modules, like AP's. I hope you are not going to suggest next that we all stop using them.
No, the WBL of his friends still is at up to 125% of normal WBL, if we go by the 75% of market price. So they are "only" somewhat overpowered and the Wizard is the one who is just leading the pack on that account.And adjusting for an inflated WBL is quite difficult on pre-written modules, like AP's. I hope you are not going to suggest next that we all stop using them.
Let's look at the numbers. Let's look at level 10. At level 10, the WBL should be around 62,000 gp. Let's assume that all his friends have given him 75% of their wealth to make items (the rest was stuff they found and kept or purchased).
So, each gives him 46,000 gp to make items (over several levels). This 46,000 gp get's them about 61,000gp of equipment (their normal WBL in other words). So each of his friends has 77,000gp of equipment. This is almost exactly 125% WBL.
Now, let's look at our Wizard. He's received a bonus of 46,000 gp total amongst his 3 friends (1/3 of 46,000 per friend as a charge for his services). He now has 62,000 + 46,000 = 110,000 gp prior to crafting. Let's assume he also crafts 75% of his starting WBL. So that's 46,000 for him, plus his bonus 46,000. He get's to do this at a 50%, so he's got 92,000 gp for crafting, and he ends up with 186,000 gp of equipment after crafting. Adding in the 16,000 gp in items he kept from treasure, his total WBL at level 10 is 202,000gp. This is 2.75 times what each of his friends has, and almost the same as all 3 put together.
That puts our little wizard four whole class levels above his friends in WBL, and his friends are not even an entire level up on WBL (they're about 10.5). And this is a level 10, if we go up to level 15, for example, then our numbers become :
Friends : They are still within WBL for 15 (but just barely)
240,000 * 0.75 = 180,000 in crafting
180,000 crafting = 240,000 in items
WBL = 240,000 + 60,000 = 300,000
Wizard : Beyond 20th level in WBL
240,000 + 240,000 (from friends)
180,000 in crafting + 240,000 in crafting
420,000 in crafting = 840,000 in crafted goods
840,000 + 60,000 = 900,000 WBL
So as you can see, the wizard is now carrying more than any character in the world should have by WBL. Still think this is not going to be game breaking? A 15th level wizard with more equipment than a 20th level rogue? Oh, and he's got exactly as much equipment as all his companions combined.
Also, the explosive WBL to the craft only really becomes problematic when he's siphoning off his travelling companions wealth as well. If he's making items at cost, then the entire party is over WBL by roughly the same amount. A GM can compensate for that relatively easily (it's a flat bonus to effective character level, thus evenly affecting encounter levels). However, if he's charging 75 or 80 or 90 percent of market value to his friends, his personal WBL increases dramatically, and his friends is reduced in relation to his, since part of theirs is going to the wizard. This is VERY hard for the GM to compensate for, if the wizard (who at mid to high levels is already a major force on the battlefield) and he's got now metamagic rods, staves, bracers of armor, robes of magi, a dozen wands in his belt (one for each occasion), permanent spells, etc.No, the WBL of his friends still is at up to 125% of normal WBL, if we go by the 75% of market price. So they are "only" somewhat overpowered and the Wizard is the one who is just leading the pack on that account.
And adjusting for an inflated WBL is quite difficult on pre-written modules, like AP's. I hope you are not going to suggest next that we all stop using them.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, being up by 125% of your wealth by level is actually less than one level off the curve.
(example. Level 10 WBL is 62K. Add 25% and you get 77.5K. This is still less than level 11 wealth.) This isn't broken broken. It's just slightly ahead of the curve.If you take as an example a wizard who has saved every gold piece he ever had, and had 62K of cash at level 10 who then parlayed his feat into a 50% discount on his items, he would end up with 124K in wealth. (Probably impossible to do, so this is an extreme example). This would put him about 2.5 levels ahead of the curve, in terms of magic items.
The question then becomes, what is the gold piece value of a feat? How much would you expect to pay for an item that granted you Spell Focus, or Improved Initiative, or Selective Channel? Does the value of any particular feat "scale" with level? (Is it always worth a couple of levels worth of cash?)
A character has several assets. There's money, or course. But assets also include class features and feats. If you wanted to buy a class feature like Improved Evasion, what would you expect to pay? Or if you want an item that grants you Improved Trip, or Improved Dirty Trick, or even Weapon Proficiency, what is a fair market price?
I'm saying this because we are arguing about whether or not Create X is broken. But it's really only broken if it is worth significantly more in cash than what you give up to get the item. So if you are giving up a feat in order to take this feat, we have to assess what other feats are worth.
So. What is or what should be the Gold Piece value of a feat?
The question then becomes, what is the gold piece value of a feat?
3,600 gp
Skill Focus gives a maximum bonus of +6 to a skill (if you have 10 ranks). 6*6*100 = 3,600
:)
|
|
The only class with enough feats to be able to drop two feats and craft without ruining their builds is the fighter. Most fighters don't have the skill points to crank Craft up high enough to make the DC's (Since they will always be at least 5 higher than the caster, sometimes 10 or even 15, depending on how many pre-reqs they can't meet). This applies to most classes other than rogue (skill point wise).
The feat alone give a +2, craft is a class skill for everyone, so another +3, the bonus from +1 to +5 have no prerequisite beside the CL, and the skill in the crafting skill count as your CL.
The CL listed in the powers descriptions is only a guideline, but the minimum caster level (and the derivative value of the spellcrat check to make the item) can be set as low as the minimum level to cast the spell needed to make the item. That mean that for most items the DC of the check is extremely low.
"The [basic] DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item."
Holy weapon? CL 7 DC 12, 17 if you don't have the spell.
You need at least 7 ranks and you have a +5 from feat and class bonus. total +12
Take 10 and you constantly beat the DC with a result of 22.
Bane? It require Summon moster 1! minimum CL 1, DC to give the property 6, 11 if you don't have the spell.
Brilliant energy? minimum CL 5. DC10, 15 for a fighter.
Disruption? it require heal, so CL 11, DC 16, 21 for a fighter. But our fighter need to have a skill rank of 11, with the usual 5 for feat and craft skill, so a total of +16, and a result, taking 10, of 26.
From what I see a non spellcaster will not have any problem adding special abilities to a weapon or armor and will have problems with wondrous items only if he is crafting items with 3+ prerequisites (like a belt increasing 3 different characteristics).
Even in the belt example he only need to enchant it in multiple steps. first strength, (and he will only miss bull strength), then dexterity (and he will be missing only cat's grace), then constitution (and he will be missing only bear's endurance).
while adding powers to a pre existing item he don't need to have the other prerequisites, only those for the power he is adding.
The question then becomes, what is the gold piece value of a feat?3,600 gp
Skill Focus gives a maximum bonus of +6 to a skill (if you have 10 ranks). 6*6*100 = 3,600
:)
Hmm. Care to venture on something that isn't one of the weakest feats in the book?
How about Leadership? (Admittedly one of the stronger feats.)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency?
Improved Initiative?
Selective Channel?
The question then becomes, what is the gold piece value of a feat?3,600 gp
Skill Focus gives a maximum bonus of +6 to a skill (if you have 10 ranks). 6*6*100 = 3,600
:)
Hmm. Care to venture on something that isn't one of the weakest feats in the book?
If you can point out a feat that's not weak that's easily buildable via the rules in the magic item creation section.
How about Leadership? (Admittedly one of the stronger feats.)
Trained Hireling : 3sp / day
365 * 3sp = 109.5 gp per year109.5 * 10 years = 1,095 gp.
Add in 2 dozen untrained hirelings as followers
365 * 1sp = 36.5 gp per year per hireling
36.5 * 10 years = 365gp per hireling
24 * 365 = 8760
Total : 10,000 gp
Exotic Weapon Proficiency?
5,000gp (Bracers of Archer, Lesser EWP = 1 feat, WP = 1 feat)
Improved Initiative?
Permanent spell (I can't remember the one that boosts init)
|
|
No potions or wands production? Remove all the easily produced expendable items and you will completely change the balance of the game.
Well, on potions I blame a brain-fart. For wands, I would allow for existing wands to be recharged (although the rules for doing that would probably be more involved than the existing wand creation rules), but I think the system could easily withstand wands being a lot more rare.
It would be feasible but vastly different from Pathfinder.
Pathfinder PRG is a generic fantasy system. It might be vastly different from Golarion, but Golarion is not the end-all and be-all of the Pathfinder RPG.
Such a strawman, I have never in my 15 years of gaming, been in a game where all loot is gold. Most of the time you can at most convert 25% of the loot into gold. Yeah if there are GMs out there that hands out only gold or trade goods as loot then yeah I would ban all crafting feats too.
Do the math for something more realistic, like 25% of loot is convertible to gold and instantly you'll see that whether the crafter sells at costs or charges doesn't amount to much. It will not like break WBL. Because WBL is only a rough guideline for the group and variances between party members are expected and can be tolerated.
If you wish to be rude, go ahead. Doesn't change things. But let's go ahead and use your 25% (which is not realistic, but let's go with it) and sell things.
62,000 * 0.5 = 32,000. So sell 32,000 of WBL to get 25% in cash. That gives the allies 16,000 in cash. They give this to the Wizard, he get's 1/3 as a fee. They get 20K in items. So their WBl is 32,000 + 20,000 = 52,000 in WBL (So now they are 83% of WBL).
The wizard sells 32,000 to get his 16,000 gp. He also get's 16,000 gp from his friends. He then turns his 32,000 gp into 64,000 gp of items. That's 100,000gp of WBL.
So yes, the Wizard is ok at WBL with your numbers, but his friends are hosed at 80% (They're a level behind).
At 15th...
Friends :
240,000 * 0.5 = 120,000 to get 60,000 in GP
60,000 crafting = 80,000 in items
WBL = 80,000 + 120,000 = 200,000
Wizard :
240,000 + 60,000 from friends
60,000 in crafting + 60,000 from friends
120,000 in crafting = 240,000 in crafted goods
240,000 + 120,000 = 360,000 WBL
So, yeah, if you assume they get nothing in cash and have to sell half their found equipment for cash to enchant, then the party members are hosed and behind on the curve, while the wizard's ahead. Of course, maybe you don't mind the wizard having 2x more things than everyone else.
*shrug*
So as you can see, the wizard is now carrying more than any character in the world should have by WBL. Still think this is not going to be game breaking? A 15th level wizard with more equipment than a 20th level rogue? Oh, and he's got exactly as much equipment as all his companions combined.
I never said it is not gamebreaking. It is just a bit more gamebreaking than item crafting alone is. If we go by your preferred method of the crafters doing their work for free, the whole group is at up to double WBL. That doesn't make the whole thing much better in my mind, especially as I personally think melees benefit much more from having higher than normal WBL than Wizards.
The question then becomes, what is the gold piece value of a feat?3,600 gp
Skill Focus gives a maximum bonus of +6 to a skill (if you have 10 ranks). 6*6*100 = 3,600
:)
Hmm. Care to venture on something that isn't one of the weakest feats in the book?
If you can point out a feat that's not weak that's easily buildable via the rules in the magic item creation section.
How about Leadership? (Admittedly one of the stronger feats.)
Trained Hireling : 3sp / day
365 * 3sp = 109.5 gp per year
109.5 * 10 years = 1,095 gp.Add in 2 dozen untrained hirelings as followers
365 * 1sp = 36.5 gp per year per hireling
36.5 * 10 years = 365gp per hireling
24 * 365 = 8760Total : 10,000 gp
Exotic Weapon Proficiency?
5,000gp (Bracers of Archer, Lesser EWP = 1 feat, WP = 1 feat)
Improved Initiative?
Permanent spell (I can't remember the one that boosts init)
Bracers of Archery don't actually grant proficiency. They allow you to use the weapon as though you were proficient. It's an important distinction, as it does not allow passage through feat chains or anything else requiring proficiency.
Also, remember to multiply by 2 on the price, because you are not using a body slot.
And it (the feat) cannot be dispelled through anti-magic fields, or other means.
Hirelings - I think using Hireling rules might work for followers, but full time services of a spellcaster two levels lower than you? That's most probably worth a great deal more than your quote.
I can't address a non-specified permanent spell (that I don't see on the list.)
No potions or wands production? Remove all the easily produced expendable items and you will completely change the balance of the game.Clerics and Oracles will be squeezed in the healbot role and a lot of classes will see a reduction in versatility (beside the question of what would happen to the Alchemist).
It would be feasible but vastly different from Pathfinder.
I call shenanigans. Item creation feats are *not* what makes Pathfinder 'Pathfinder'.
For one, the inability to craft potions and wands does not mean that potions and wands do not exist. Or even that they aren't able to be purchased. In that case, the inability for a *PC* to make them has a negligible change on the game.
But even if wands and potions were not available to be purchased or crafted, it doesn't mean that divine casters are forced to healbot. And if a GM is changing the game such that cheap, consumable healing isn't available in stick/drink form, then it's almost plausible they have a plan to deal with that by:
improving the heal skill
reskinning healing potions as herbal medicine
declaring that all damage except the hit that takes away your last hitpoint is 'superficial' and goes away on it's own shortly
that divine casters can use 'lesser channel energy' an unlimited number of times per day (5 round-action, heals 1d8+level to target touched, must maintain contact for the entire casting)
that arcane casters can perform ritual circle magic and create a circle of healing (20 minute creation time, all creatures inside the circle gain fast healing 1, any vigorous motion inside the circle ruins it)
etc etc...
In each of these cases, the GM is merely transposing flavor without disrupting the 'we must have cheap healing or the game is no longer the game'.
But even then, I've never felt that cheap healing was *critical* to the 'Pathfinder Experience', and without it I was playing a different game.
So as you can see, the wizard is now carrying more than any character in the world should have by WBL. Still think this is not going to be game breaking? A 15th level wizard with more equipment than a 20th level rogue? Oh, and he's got exactly as much equipment as all his companions combined.I never said it is not gamebreaking. It is just a bit more gamebreaking than item crafting alone is. If we go by your preferred method of the crafters doing their work for free, the whole group is at up to double WBL. That doesn't make the whole thing much better in my mind, especially as I personally think melees benefit much more from having higher than normal WBL than Wizards.
Not quite. The assumption of 75% spent on crafting would result in :
0.25X + 2(0.75X) = 0.25X + 1.5X = 1.75X (Where X is WBL)
WBL ranges from 3 to 1.28 as a difference multiple as level increases. So, at most, at any given level, you are going to be 2.25 levels ahead across the board on WBL (this is at level 18, where the group has a WBL of 927,500, putting them a little over 20th level WBL).
The basic idea is that if the team is overpowered by roughly the same amount, it's easier to compensate. For an APL, if they are over level by 2 levels, you just subtract 1 from the encounter level for them, to balance it out (for example, if the encounter level is 10, and they are 2 over on wealth, then you consider it a level 9 encounter for them). This means they may be behind on actual level by the end of the AP by a level, but they will be on curve for power level and it will still be challenging in the next AP.
If it's a homebrew campaign, it's even easier. You either reduce the CR rating of the encounter by 1 to compensate, or you boost the CR of the enemies to compensate.
Stuff
I think you are missing the point. Even if you triple the costs I listed. In no way is one feat worth 50K in WBL.
Question: Can we retire the word "strawman"? How about we replace it with "wickerman"? or "scarecrow"?
Gignere, In my 23 years of gaming experience, I have played in plenty of games where the PCs get to town and sell their loots for the gee-pees. All of their loots. That's why there are guidelines for how much liquid wealth a town of given size has. I think MDTs post is better described as hyperbole, rather than ... that other ... word.
But you are right. WBL is not a rule. Its not a hard cap on player wealth (though some like to use it that way). Its just as you say, a guideline. Its there to let the GM know when they might need to scale back or at least when they might need to buff up the CR of the next encounter. If one player starts getting a larger share of the total wealth, it CAN lead to balance problems, where one player is having it easy or is getting too much of the glory because his gear is much more awesome than everyone else's. Its not guaranteed to happen, but it does happen occasionally.
From my experience, If one player starts taking orders for magic items and charges 75% market value, and the other players agree to that, you will likely see a slow shift towards the crafter having more WBL. At some point they may have quite a lot more wealth than the other players. Those other players might notice, and the disparity will either correct itself or lead to party arguments. If I were GMing at a table and a priest of Abadar want to charge gold for crafted items I would ask them to limit it to like 5% profit over cost. That IMHO is low enough that most players will see the RP component and won't balk at it. But in a long campaign, I would also watch the Priest of Abadar's finances and see if he starts scaling past the rest of the group.
So as you can see, the wizard is now carrying more than any character in the world should have by WBL. Still think this is not going to be game breaking? A 15th level wizard with more equipment than a 20th level rogue? Oh, and he's got exactly as much equipment as all his companions combined.I never said it is not gamebreaking. It is just a bit more gamebreaking than item crafting alone is. If we go by your preferred method of the crafters doing their work for free, the whole group is at up to double WBL. That doesn't make the whole thing much better in my mind, especially as I personally think melees benefit much more from having higher than normal WBL than Wizards.Not quite. The assumption of 75% spent on crafting would result in :
0.25X + 2(0.75X) = 0.25X + 1.5X = 1.75X (Where X is WBL)
WBL ranges from 3 to 1.28 as a difference multiple as level increases. So, at most, at any given level, you are going to be 2.25 levels ahead across the board on WBL (this is at level 18, where the group has a WBL of 927,500, putting them a little over 20th level WBL).
The basic idea is that if the team is overpowered by roughly the same amount, it's easier to compensate. For an APL, if they are over level by 2 levels, you just subtract 1 from the encounter level for them, to balance it out (for example, if the encounter level is 10, and they are 2 over on wealth, then you consider it a level 9 encounter for them). This means they may be behind on actual level by the end of the AP by a level, but they will be on curve for power level and it will still be challenging in the next AP.
If it's a homebrew campaign, it's even easier. You either reduce the CR rating of the encounter by 1 to compensate, or you boost the CR of the enemies to compensate.
Not really. Having to rejigger all encounters in an AP means extensive work. I buy AP's because I don't have that time anymore.
StuffI think you are missing the point. Even if you triple the costs I listed. In no way is one feat worth 50K in WBL.
And you are apparently missing mine. None of what you provided for costing provides for the full benefit of the feat.
A feat is a slotless, non-magical effect that a magic item can only partially replace.
It would be like saying, "How much money is your child worth?"
and having someone answer: "I can hire a worker at $8/hour."
B does not replace A. B is only one aspect of A.
Question: Can we retire the word "strawman"? How about we replace it with "wickerman"? or "scarecrow"?
Gignere, In my 23 years of gaming experience, I have played in plenty of games where the PCs get to town and sell their loots for the gee-pees. All of their loots. That's why there are guidelines for how much liquid wealth a town of given size has. I think MDTs post is better described as hyperbole, rather than ... that other ... word.
It's neither a strawman nor hyperbole.
There are only a fixed number of ways to follow WBL.
A) WBL is based on what you give out, and if the PCs sell the gear, they have less in actual WBL due to losing 50% on sales. This is the method Gignere espoused in his post. The entire party will be under-equipped under this scenario unless the GM is asking them exactly what they want and dropping this as gear.
B) WBL is based off what the PCs actually have as equipment. If this is used, then there will be more equipment and wealth found, as the PCs will be assumed to sell it for 1/2 value. Thus if you want them at WBL, you need to hand them 1.75x WBL in equipment to even out the loss of equipment due to sale of found items. This is the type of game I've only ever dealt with, both as a player and a GM. That is, WBL is based on what you have, not what you give. Under this scenario, a significant amount of items are converted into cash to buy other items or is used to craft other items. By significant, I mean about 3/4 of treasure is either cash or converted to cash. That's why I used 75% to demonstrate how powerful a wizard can get if he's being paid by the party a 25% boost.
StuffI think you are missing the point. Even if you triple the costs I listed. In no way is one feat worth 50K in WBL.And you are apparently missing mine. None of what you provided for costing provides for the full benefit of the feat.
A feat is a slotless, non-magical effect that a magic item can only partially replace.
Which does nothing to further the argument one way or the other.
Let me try a different track with you before I give up.
Which would you rather have, one feat that gave you A, or one feat that over 10 levels gave you 1/2A, 1/4B, 2C, 1/2D, 3/4E, 9/10F and all of G? Because if you let item creation feats get out of hand, that's what they do. They can be game breaking if not watched, which is all I have been saying. It can ruin a game OOC if the Wiz is not only making all his own items, but getting more cash from the other PCs to make even more items for him. I've seen people yelling at each other when someone was perceived to have been getting more than their fair share in a game. I don't give a flying damn if you or anyone else considers it metagamey or socialism (which, by the way, what are we? Back in time and this is the red menace of communism time? Seriuosly? People win arguments now by calling other people communists or socialists and we put them in dungeons for it?), game balance contributes to a stable game everyone enjoys. Lack of balance, especially in favor of one PC over another, will send your game crashing into flames like no other. So I'm willing to give up on versimillitude for the sake of game balance on certain things, and this is one of them.
StuffI think you are missing the point. Even if you triple the costs I listed. In no way is one feat worth 50K in WBL.And you are apparently missing mine. None of what you provided for costing provides for the full benefit of the feat.
A feat is a slotless, non-magical effect that a magic item can only partially replace.
Which does nothing to further the argument one way or the other.
Let me try a different track with you before I give up.
Which would you rather have, one feat that gave you A, or one feat that over 10 levels gave you 1/2A, 1/4B, 2C, 1/2D, 3/4E, 9/10F and all of G? Because if you let item creation feats get out of hand, that's what they do. They can be game breaking if not watched, which is all I have been saying. It can ruin a game OOC if the Wiz is not only making all his own items, but getting more cash from the other PCs to make even more items for him. I've seen people yelling at each other when someone was perceived to have been getting more than their fair share in a game. I don't give a flying damn if you or anyone else considers it metagamey or socialism (which, by the way, what are we? Back in time and this is the red menace of communism time? Seriuosly? People win arguments now by calling other people communists or socialists and we put them in dungeons for it?), game balance contributes to a stable game everyone enjoys. Lack of balance, especially in favor of one PC over another, will send your game crashing into flames like no other. So I'm willing to give up on versimillitude for the sake of game balance on certain things, and this is one of them.
Would I rather have a scalable feat or a non-scalable feat? I think the answer to that is obvious.
Communism and socialism are not the same thing, and I did not use the term communism. By changing my words thus, you have created a strawman argument, and then knocked it down. Congratulations.
I really think your problem is not with party dynamics, but the feats themselves. Banning them entirely in your game would probably work better for you than trying to force players into actions that they don't want to be forced into.
Everyone seeks balance for their own game. Some DM's hate Leadership. Some hate item crafting. Some hate things like Magical Lineage.
The world is big. Opinions vary. Enjoy your game.
Would I rather have a scalable feat or a non-scalable feat? I think the answer to that is obvious.
No, not a scalable feat. A feat that gives you from 1/4 to 9/10ths of 13 different OTHER feats.
Communism and socialism are not the same thing, and I did not use the term communism. By changing my words thus, you have created a strawman argument, and then knocked it down....
Nah? Really? They aren't the same? Well shoot, maybe I should have went to school... oh wait, I did. Since I didn't say they were, I'm on solid ground. Yay! By saying I did, you mister fuzzy wuzzy, have made a strawman! Let me burn it down with a flame thrower.
I said that throwing out socialism was like being back in the McCarthy era, where people tried to win arguments by calling the other person a communist. You do know who McCarthy was, right? I mean, if you haven't any knowledge of US history, then I'm wasting my breath (although it would explain why you don't know what you're talking about on this bit right here).
As to the rest of your post, I don't hate crafting. I'm perfectly fine with crafting, and with leadership. I simply keep an eye on it in game and talk to the crafter if I think the game is getting off it's wheels. I think, personally, that trying to reign in things that break the game is much better than ignoring or banning them. I seem to be in the minority on that though, as so far it seems (much like in our current political system) only the extremes are considered, not the middle of the road approaches.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow. Talk about your mass overreaction. It's threads like this that will ultimately ruin roleplaying and turn Pathfinder into 4E.
The game is NOT broken by the item creation feats. The game only breaks down when nobody is having fun. Has this happened in your game? If so, it's not because of the feats, it's because of bad GMing or immature players.
If someone can't handle something as simple as the disparity between one character having 3 or 4 more items than another, than maybe they need to stop whining about it, find a new hobby, and quit ruining everyone's fun with their incessant negative attitude.
Would I rather have a scalable feat or a non-scalable feat? I think the answer to that is obvious.
No, not a scalable feat. A feat that gives you from 1/4 to 9/10ths of 13 different OTHER feats.
Communism and socialism are not the same thing, and I did not use the term communism. By changing my words thus, you have created a strawman argument, and then knocked it down....Nah? Really? They aren't the same? Well shoot, maybe I should have went to school... oh wait, I did. Since I didn't say they were, I'm on solid ground. Yay! By saying I did, you mister fuzzy wuzzy, have made a strawman! Let me burn it down with a flame thrower.
I said that throwing out socialism was like being back in the McCarthy era, where people tried to win arguments by calling the other person a communist. You do know who McCarthy was, right? I mean, if you haven't any knowledge of US history, then I'm wasting my breath (although it would explain why you don't know what you're talking about on this bit right here).
As to the rest of your post, I don't hate crafting. I'm perfectly fine with crafting, and with leadership. I simply keep an eye on it in game and talk to the crafter if I think the game is getting off it's wheels. I think, personally, that trying to reign in things that break the game is much better than ignoring or banning them. I seem to be in the minority on that though, as so far it seems (much like in our current political system) only the extremes are considered, not the middle of the road approaches.
At this point, it seems to me that you are either unwilling, or unable to discuss this topic with any degree of civility. Thus, I will concede the thread to you sir. You win.
Enjoy your game.
The game is NOT broken by the item creation feats. The game only breaks down when nobody is having fun. Has this happened in your game? If so, it's not because of the feats, it's because of bad GMing or immature players.
This we actually agree on. The feats are not broken. Leadership is not broken. It's only when a player (or GM) twists them six ways from sunday that they can break the game. As long as everyone uses them as intended, and not as cheesily as possible, then they're fine.
If someone can't handle something as simple as the disparity between one character having 3 or 4 more items than another, than maybe they need to stop whining about it, find a new hobby, and quit ruining everyone's fun with their incessant negative attitude.
This we disagree on, at least, as you've stated it. If someone is not having fun because another person is cheesing the system as hard as they can, and stealing the spot light in every game, that is not the fault of the GM, and not the fault of the person who is upset, it's the fault of the player doing the cheesing.
As an example, I was playing a rogue in a game. Another person was playing an artificer from Ebberron. They wanted to do all the rogue things, searching for devices, disabling them, etc. I sighed, and let them, and started focusing on the other rogue type stuff, like diplomacy and etc.
Then the person tried to get their little brother in the game too. They made their character for them, and made a rogue maxed out on Charisma and diplomacy things for them.
Now, who's the person who needs to be slapped by the GM (who by the way, never said anything)? The person who went out of his way to not make waves, or the person who stepped all over someone else's concept at every turn for their own enjoyment and their brother's enjoyment?
It's not always the person who get's upset that is the problem. At least half the time, it's the jerk who's getting people upset that's at fault.
As an example, I was playing a rogue in a game. Another person was playing an artificer from Ebberron. They wanted to do all the rogue things, searching for devices, disabling them, etc. I sighed, and let them, and started focusing on the other rogue type stuff, like diplomacy and etc.Then the person tried to get their little brother in the game too. They made their character for them, and made a rogue maxed out on Charisma and diplomacy things for them.
Now, who's the person who needs to be slapped by the GM (who by the way, never said anything)? The person who went out of his way to not make waves, or the person who stepped all over someone else's concept at every turn for their own enjoyment and their brother's enjoyment?
It's not always the person who get's upset that is the problem. At least half the time, it's the jerk who's getting people upset...
The little brother, you should have talked with him that you wished to be Party face. And see if he can't do something else with his rogue. After all, he came after you.
In the case of Artificer, you arrived at same time in game so you don't have shotgun of role.
The little brother, you should have talked with him that you wished to be Party face. And see if he can't do something else with his rogue. After all, he came after you.
In the case of Artificer, you arrived at same time in game so you don't have shotgun of role.
I was going to talk to him and the GM, but he ended up dropping out after the first couple of games. Turns out, he didn't like trying to pretend to be someone else and talk to people as if they were someone else. The big brother was the one that wanted that.
As to the artificer, he decided to start doing rogue things at level 2, he was happy making weapons and casting spells at level 1. So when we built our characters, his stated focus was being an artificer, enchanting weapons, and building items. Which was why I picked rogue, since someone else wanted to fight, and my wife wanted to be the healer.
If someone can't handle something as simple as the disparity between one character having 3 or 4 more items than another, than maybe they need to stop whining about it, find a new hobby, and quit ruining everyone's fun with their incessant negative attitude.This we disagree on, at least, as you've stated it. If someone is not having fun because another person is cheesing the system as hard as they can, and stealing the spot light in every game, that is not the fault of the GM, and not the fault of the person who is upset, it's the fault of the player doing the cheesing.
As an example, I was playing a rogue in a game. Another person was playing an artificer from Ebberron. They wanted to do all the rogue things, searching for devices, disabling them, etc. I sighed, and let them, and started focusing on the other rogue type stuff, like diplomacy and etc.
Then the person tried to get their little brother in the game too. They made their character for them, and made a rogue maxed out on Charisma and diplomacy things for them.
Now, who's the person who needs to be slapped by the GM (who by the way, never said anything)? The person who went out of his way to not make waves, or the person who stepped all over someone else's concept at every turn for their own enjoyment and their brother's enjoyment?
It's not always the person who get's upset that is the problem. At least half the time, it's the jerk who's getting people upset...
Sounds to me like you are describing an entirely different problem then the one I was referring to. I'm not talking spotlights. I'm talking about one character having +1 attack/AC/damage/saves than the next guy because he has slightly more gear. No two characters will ever be perfectly balanced, and anyone complaining about small differences is just out looking for trouble.
The fact of the matter is both characters have a great deal of value and would likely die horrific deaths if they didn't consistently work together.
Sounds to me like you are describing an entirely different problem then the one I was referring to. I'm not talking spotlights. I'm talking about one character having +1 attack/AC/damage/saves than the next guy because he has slightly more gear. No two characters will ever be perfectly balanced, and anyone complaining about small differences is just out looking for trouble.The fact of the matter is both characters have a great deal of value and would likely die horrific deaths if they didn't consistently...
Yes, but you're talking about small differences. I've never been talking about small differences. I'm talking about big differences. For example, Player A's character has 10,000 GP in equipment, and Player B's character has 20,000 GP in equipment. That's not a small difference, that's a huge difference.