This is one of the reasons I kept xp penalties for crafting permanent magic items (I dumped it for one use items like potions and scrolls). I didn't want my PCs spending all their time crafting and whining about the costs and who charged what...
And you still have them in the game? Because they don't make sense.
What will a wizard get out of a magic sword? He can't use it, and he's giving up his power for it. Does he do it for selling? Probably not, because that's idiotic. When you go and gain enough XP to make that sword, you'll probably gain more wealth/power than by selling the weapon.
XP as a resource was one of the stupidest things 3e did. Getting rid of that forever was one of the best changes Pathfinder introduced.
A lot of people were house-ruling it, anyway.
And if you need to keep them from casting all the time, introduce time constraints. Will the villain wait for them for months so they can make just the sword they want?
I don't think so.
And you still have them in the game? Because they don't make sense.
XP costs? They make perfect sense really. A lot of players don't like them for obvious reasons. The concept of sacrificing part of yourself to create magic is well represented in fantasy fiction. At it's extreme you get the One Ring for example. My game is not as magic intensive as a lot of campaigns either.
What will a wizard get out of a magic sword? He can't use it, and he's giving up his power for it. Does he do it for selling? Probably not, because that's idiotic. When you go and gain enough XP to make that sword, you'll probably gain more wealth/power than by selling the weapon.
That's the point. It's reduced the amount of crafting that would go on significantly, reduced the presence of magic, made what magic they do find more valuable and caused them to "think before they do".
XP as a resource was one of the stupidest things 3e did. Getting rid of that forever was one of the best changes Pathfinder introduced.A lot of people were house-ruling it, anyway.
That's a matter of opinion. The ability to craft magic items at all was considered pretty cool at the start of 3E. A system in which you could pretty much make what you wanted was all shiney and new. Judging by these forums, a lot of people spend a lot of their time worrying about what the players are crafting, the overabundance of items and the Christmas tree effect too. I don't.
People house rule a lot of things. Sometimes I agree, sometimes not. As a DM, running the game I do, I did not agree with the elimination of xp costs. Said so at the time. I did loosen up by allowing disposable one use items (scrolls and potions) to be crafted without xp, but the utility / value of permanent magic items is such that I decided there should be a cost besides gp. Time alone didn't seem enough. So xp.
And if you need to keep them from casting all the time, introduce time constraints. Will the villain wait for them for months so they can make just the sword they want?I don't think so.
I assume you mean crafting, not casting? Time constraints are another factor. My game is a bit of a dinosaur in some ways. It's a sand box game that originated with editions (original D&D) in which magic was much scarcer than 3.x and damn near impossible to craft. Xp costs or no, it's far easier to do now. The xp have been spent before but only on items that were "must haves" and the sacrifice involved from the PC was something everyone realized and no one demanded. Anyway, I haven't had complaints from my players on it. The current Wizard in the group pretty much agrees with my reasoning (and the fluff associated with it).
And I'm not asking you to change :)
If you are going to use the 3.5 xp cost for creating magic items then you should also use the 3.5 xp reward system and at that time i really hope that Ravingdork will come and tell us how that system was a joke and actually makes you more powerfull.
If you are going to use the 3.5 xp cost for creating magic items then you should also use the 3.5 xp reward system and at that time i really hope that Ravingdork will come and tell us how that system was a joke and actually makes you more powerfull.
It was. As I mentioned in my post, I got more exp since you choose to level (not automatic), so I could craft even more for 1/2 price market value items making my self have a lot of bling (and the others who agreed to pay 75% market cost).
Our group doesn't like the item creation feats as well. We solved the bonus cash problem by banning them! All that is allowed in the consumable item creation feats (potion, scroll, and wand).
If you want an item, you have to find it! We do allow the selling and buying of items as per the rulebook.
We also use a "wish list" technique and the DM seeds the adventures with some items that a character wants so he doesn't have to sell everything.
I just love the idea of banning item creation options. /sarcasm
Which came first, the +1 sword or the crafter?
The game doesn't suffer for banning the item creation feats. After all items are items, where they come from really doesn't matter.I just love the idea of banning item creation options. /sarcasm
Which came first, the +1 sword or the crafter?
Game doesn't suffer. The story does.
Unless you consider the story important.
Oh, wait...
"Dear Santa, please bring me a +1 Flaming Long Sword, a Helm of Brilliance, and a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone - Love Jason"
[some time later]
"You kill the band of kobolds, what do you do?"
"We rummage through their stuff to see if they've anything interesting."
"You find a +1 flaming long sword, a Helm that seems magical and a clear stone that looks spindly while sparkling in the twilight."
Jason - "Holy carp! The Kobolds killed Santa!!!"
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The game doesn't suffer for banning the item creation feats. After all items are items, where they come from really doesn't matter.I just love the idea of banning item creation options. /sarcasm
Which came first, the +1 sword or the crafter?Game doesn't suffer. The story does.
Unless you consider the story important.
So you're saying the story suffers unless the hero makes his own magic items? Gee someone forgot to tell Moorcock, the creators of the Arthurian tales, the writers of the Greek myths and every other story where the hero doesn't make his items but is granted by some one else.
And the game is sooo much improved by "And I crafted my +1, thundering, flaming, frost. shocking burst, longsword"
The game doesn't suffer for banning the item creation feats. After all items are items, where they come from really doesn't matter.I just love the idea of banning item creation options. /sarcasm
Which came first, the +1 sword or the crafter?Game doesn't suffer. The story does.
Unless you consider the story important.
So you're saying the story suffers unless the hero makes his own magic items? Gee someone forgot to tell Moorcock, the creators of the Arthurian tales, the writers of the Greek myths and every other story where the hero doesn't make his items but is granted by some one else.
And the game is sooo much improved by "And I crafted my +1, thundering, flaming, frost. shocking burst, longsword"
I personally think that placing specific magic items in dungeons solely because a player wished them to be there makes the story suffer.
And yes, I think "My good friend Hugh Laurie of the House Fox crafted this armor for me using the skin of a dragon that we slew together." has more story to it than "Yep, found this +1 dragonhide armor in some random treasure pile after I told the GM I wanted it."
It is vastly different to go in search of a specific item of legend, traveling the world to eventually find, than it is to simply give the GM a list of treasure that you want, and then expect to find it in random places in random dungeons that you are crawling through. Heck, I even think that selling random loot to save up to purchase that +1 dragonhide armor has more story than simply wishing it into existence.
YMMV.
The following was taken from a character sheet in a game I was participating in.
Omessa's Bladed Gauntlet +1
This masterwork adamantine gauntlet has serrated blades extending from the knuckles a few inches long, like a series of small daggers. The fingers of the gauntlet are carefully crafted and plated so the daggers can't accidentally cause damage to the hand. The gauntlet extends up the forarm for maximum protection with minimal reduction of motion. The gauntlet has a been empowered with psionic energy which courses through it, granting it a +1 enhancement bonus.The gauntlet is further enhanced through psionic energy to amplify the wearer's strength through faint but noticeable tactile telekinesis, which increases the force generated by the wielder's body. The gauntlet grants a +1 enhancement bonus to strength much like a gauntlet of ogre strength.
Omessa's Crushing Gauntlet +1
This masterwork adamantine gauntlet has a thick metal plate across knuckles creating a hard blunt surfaces perfect for punches or backswings. The gauntlet is enhanced with psionic energy providing a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapon.The gauntlet is further enhanced through psionic energy to amplify the wearer's stamina by strengthenign their lifeforce through advanced biofeedback signals which are guided by the auric awareness. The gauntlet grants a +1 enhancement bonus to constitution much like an amulet of health.
Omessa's "Astral Spike" +1 Adamantite Longspear
This longspear appears to be formed of raw astral essence bound into a semi-solid form. While it has an appearance similar to a glossy glass, the weapon is incredibly hard and capable of punching through solid steel like a knife through paper. The weapon has been further enhanced with psionic energy, granting it a +1 enhancement bonus.Omessa's Shimmering Scales +1
This masterwork mithril chain shirt is a light and flexible mesh of mithril and leather armor, donned over the head and strapped in place with several mithril-lined leather belts and straps. The suit covers the front and back of the torso, the arms, and most of the legs equally. It extends down past the belt in a skirt-like shape, splitting slightly along the midsection to allow for free movement of the legs. The armored areas are made of a combination of chain and scale.In addition to being a masterfully crafted piece of armor, it has been further enhanced with latent psionic power, granting a +1 enhancement bonus to the armor's AC bonus, and it magnifies the personal power of the wearer, granting a +1 enhancement bonus to the wearer's charisma as well.
Omessa's "Fateweave" Cloak of Resistance +1
This masterwork cloak while simple in appearance, grants a +2 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks, worn tightly around the wearer's shoulders, with an optional strap which allows one to anchor it to their torso to reduce the chance it gets snagged or pulled. It's been enhanced psionically to protect its wearer and twist the random factors of time and space in the wearer's favor, granting a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws like a cloak of resistance.Omessa's Circlet of Mental Celerity +1
This masterwork circlet grants a +2 equipment bonus to Perception checks, as well as functioning as a headband of intellect +1. It is crafted from a mithril and steel alloy. It also grants a +2 competence bonus to Perception and Spellcraft (this stacks with the +2 circumstance bonus to Perception).Omessa's Boots of Celerity +2
These masterwork boots grant a +2 circumstance bonus to acrobatics checks, and appear to be incredibly tough and rugged boots with lots of small straps and thick latches for securing them snugly. They're actually quite soft and supple inside, and very comfortable. They've been psionically empowered to create small distortions in space-time via faint cronokinesis combined with psychokinetic enhancements to the wearer's actual movement speed by 10 ft.Omessa's Astral Deflector +1
This masterwork collar is studded with quartz crystals and worn around the neck. The collar provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy checks, and has been psionically enhanced to generate a protective field of force which deflects incoming attacks away from the wearer. This item grants a +1 deflection bonus similar to a ring of protection.
I won't say it adds to everyone's game, but if something exists someone made it. If someone can make it, why not PCs? In the end, all of the above items - while being mechanically fine - were custom made, and I do believe our game was better for it, and the items were appreciated more because they were personally crafted.
I personally think that placing specific magic items in dungeons solely because a player wished them to be there makes the story suffer.
And yes, I think "My good friend Hugh Laurie of the House Fox crafted this armor for me using the skin of a dragon that we slew together." has more story to it than "Yep, found this +1 dragonhide armor in some random treasure pile after I told the GM I wanted it."
It is vastly different to go in search of a specific item of legend, traveling the world to eventually find, than it is to simply give the GM a list of treasure that you want, and then expect to find it in random places in random dungeons that you are crawling through. Heck, I even think that selling random loot to save up to purchase that +1 dragonhide armor has more story than simply wishing it into existence.
YMMV.
Pretty much this.
Or you tell the gm you want a +1 flaming sword and +1 dragon hide armor.
In the next adventure, the bbeg is wielding a +1 flaming sword, the adventure after that, a retired veteran whose child you saved bequeaths his +1 dragon hide armor to you as thanks.
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This is one of the reasons I kept xp penalties for crafting permanent magic items (I dumped it for one use items like potions and scrolls). I didn't want my PCs spending all their time crafting and whining about the costs and who charged what...
So you are heavily penalizing who use them, as Pathfinder, differently from the 3.0 and 3.5 editions, don't have ways to recover the XP gap.
If you are going to use the 3.5 xp cost for creating magic items then you should also use the 3.5 xp reward system and at that time i really hope that Ravingdork will come and tell us how that system was a joke and actually makes you more powerfull.
You don't need to place the whole 3.0-3.5 system in Pathfuinder, but you need to give back some of the XP to the guy burning them for the party or you will force the party to depend on the NPC for the stuff they need.
Gee someone forgot to tell Moorcock, the creators of the Arthurian tales, the writers of the Greek myths and every other story where the hero doesn't make his items but is granted by some one else.
Elric has at least Brew potions as he was preparing the potion strength he used when not wielding Stormbringer.
Hephaestus was the crafter for the Greeks gods and a few items were done by the heroes themselves (Heracles made an armor with the the hide of the lion of Cithaeron).The Arthurian knights where the epitome of big, dumb fighters. Morgan le Fay did crafted healing ointments.
If you read the Simarillion there is plenty of guys crafting their own magic items.
So you are heavily penalizing who use them, as Pathfinder, differently from the 3.0 and 3.5 editions, don't have ways to recover the XP gap.This is one of the reasons I kept xp penalties for crafting permanent magic items (I dumped it for one use items like potions and scrolls). I didn't want my PCs spending all their time crafting and whining about the costs and who charged what...
My PCs are not all at the same level. Currently they run from 9th to 11th level (and run with several NPCs on and off of 8-12th level). Experience is not all they are about. Fatalities (at lower levels) and other commitments / resposibilities than adventuring (in game, not rl) will do that for you. It's not an AP where they have a schedule and are moving from point A to B. The items generally make up for the penalty in a game in which magic items are rarer than normal. They tend to find items (and occasionally end up trading items with NPCs), adventure to find specific items and make do with what they have. They have recieved several items from patrons as well. And disposable items don't cost xp, just permanent ones. I don't have adventures that require super specific items and my PCs aren't forced to go where they don't think they can handle it. I've got a ton of content created over 35+ years for them to do as well as standard dungeon crawl / wilderness adventures. They're a pretty canny bunch at that. They have managed stuff I would have avoided and sometimes backed out of things they might be able to handle. Good judgement overall though. In short, it's a different game than a lot out there. They enjoy playing in it and I enjoy running it. In the end that's what matters.
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For a couple of Wizards that I've played: if the Fighter started to walk away from a fight because he wanted to teach the Wizard a lesson for not being his willing craft slave, he would find him-self on the recieving end of a Hold Person spell as the Wizard walked/flew/teleported away.
Except while the Wizard is wasting time being butthurt over the Fighter, the monster he just began ignoring rips his throat out.
Then they both die because they weren't working together and I don't pull any punches. Congratulations, time to re-roll characters. Everybody loses.
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Suppose the fighter "orders" a magic item and the wizard creates it (successfully). How do you split the "generated" financial advantage?
Rule Number One: The Characters Are In It Together, Versus The Rest Of The World. As soon as they forget that, they're screwed. (I'm not talking about adversarial DMing, here, I'm talking about the facts of life from a character;s point of view.) The "generated financial advantage?" With more, and/or more powerful magic items in the group, YOU BOTH LIVE LONGER! Every emperor of Rome who forgot to take care of his armies well lived a very short life.
If a character wants to make money from his feat, split the time between making things for the companions and making things for NPC customers, which a good DM should provide during down time. (If a DM doesn't do this, talk to your DM, and tell 'em ENHenry says they suck. :D) Now, you won't have all the down-time you want, and if the PC fighter wonders why you can't make items for him 24-7, then tell him why, and tell him if he wants you to make items for him full-time, he needs to pay you full price. You're still offering him items at cost, giving a heck of a lot of your time, and ensuring your group survives longer -- but you're still your own person, and not a sucker.
I'd expect similar recompense if you had a rare spell ingredient and needed muscle to defend you when you went to get it on a side quest, or if your NPC hirelings needed training, and the fighter could train them, or similar.
In our last Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign, half the characters owned businesses, and we horse-traded all the time during down-time.
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In the game I play in, the casters don't charge extra for their crafting services to other party members. Item crafting is something that is generally viewed as a thing we can do to make the whole party more effective, and that's a more important goal than getting one's own PC more individual wealth than the next guy has.
The other party members, in turn, don't b%@&* at the crafters if they don't spend every last minute crafting for them, and understand that such crafting comes when the crafters have spare time, and is not on-demand.
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I personally think that placing specific magic items in dungeons solely because a player wished them to be there makes the story suffer.
And yes, I think "My good friend Hugh Laurie of the House Fox crafted this armor for me using the skin of a dragon that we slew together." has more story to it than "Yep, found this +1 dragonhide armor in some random treasure pile after I told the GM I wanted it."
It is vastly different to go in search of a specific item of legend, traveling the world to eventually find, than it is to simply give the GM a list of treasure that you want, and then expect to find it in random places in random dungeons that you are crawling through. Heck, I even think that selling random loot to save up to purchase that +1 dragonhide armor has more story than simply wishing it into existence.
YMMV.
I don't generally take wish lists from players. I do get a sense like any observant GM should what items if any the group should have in thier posession. Arthur's Excalibur was granted to him by the Lady of the Lake; Is it so diminished in story value because he did not hammer it out himself?
I don't generally take wish lists from players. I do get a sense like any observant GM should what items if any the group should have in thier posession. Arthur's Excalibur was granted to him by the Lady of the Lake; Is it so diminished in story value because he did not hammer it out himself?I personally think that placing specific magic items in dungeons solely because a player wished them to be there makes the story suffer.
And yes, I think "My good friend Hugh Laurie of the House Fox crafted this armor for me using the skin of a dragon that we slew together." has more story to it than "Yep, found this +1 dragonhide armor in some random treasure pile after I told the GM I wanted it."
It is vastly different to go in search of a specific item of legend, traveling the world to eventually find, than it is to simply give the GM a list of treasure that you want, and then expect to find it in random places in random dungeons that you are crawling through. Heck, I even think that selling random loot to save up to purchase that +1 dragonhide armor has more story than simply wishing it into existence.
YMMV.
I think you are still mixing apples and oranges.
Excalibur was a legendary blade granted to Arthur by a supernatural being.
It wasn't found in a random pile of other carp found while killing giant rats because Arthur had made a wishlist of gear he wanted.
I'm seeing a major difference here, that apparently you aren't seeing.
Really, if your game is happy with your play style, then I'm happy for you. Everyone plays the game differently. One of the things that I personally didn't like about 4e was the wishlist style of treasure handouts. It's a preference thing for me, and there's no way that I can tell you that my preference is inherently better than yours. (Okay, I could, but I won't. <g>)
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Frankly, the only difference between finding something in *a pile of crap* or being handed it by a supernatural being is how good you are as a dm at coming up with ideas.
If the only way you can consider adding in items like that is to drop them as random loot in a flavorless, storyless fight against a bland bbeg, then really it's not the items you should be looking at, but rather your ability to craft an interesting story.
"Dear Santa, please bring me a +1 Flaming Long Sword, a Helm of Brilliance, and a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone - Love Jason"
[some time later]
"You kill the band of kobolds, what do you do?"
"We rummage through their stuff to see if they've anything interesting."
"You find a +1 flaming long sword, a Helm that seems magical and a clear stone that looks spindly while sparkling in the twilight."
Jason - "Holy carp! The Kobolds killed Santa!!!"
LOL
For our system, you give a wish list but there is no guarentee you will get it. The DM divides the treasure into crap magic (must be sold, so half value for wealth determination) and good stuff (worth full value, if you sell it, your loss).
Not much different then going to magic mart.
Our problem with item creation feats is that it breaks WBL. And that is because if the DM over compensates to help the fighter, then the rest of the part still demands thier "fair share" of the loot. So the fighter is still paying.
No matter what system u use, there is a break in the tradition of fantasy literature. I feel banning item creation feats (aside scroll, potion, and wand) puts things in the DM's capabile hands.
I was in a similar position, as the item creator. I chose to sell at-cost (50%). The 25% cost that I missed out on would have just been a transfer among party members, not increasing the total pool of party funds. Wanting to control a bigger portion of the party funds seems like a douche move for a party member. I'd rather pay the full 100% to a stranger than 75% to reward the selfishness of someone that's supposed to be on the same side as me.
The whole "I want compensation beyond cost for helping out a teammate" seems absurd, doesn't it? I could understand if they weren't teammates, just random adventurers negotiating a sale.
It's like the dude who wants to hold all the loot until it's distributed. You're just being a greedy bell-end. The fact that the confrontation ended with the Wizard picking up his toys and choosing another feat tells you everything about his priorities. Guess what, wizard? You've got all the bargaining power. When the fighter leaves, you're still a wizard. You could leave and screw over the party. Using leverage against a party member? So that you have more of the party's money? How is this a difficult question?
That would be correct if the OP was using crafting feats like mdt (and some other poeple) does, that means that the DM hammers the crafter player's or the party's wealth. Now from what i have understood the OP isn't of that mindset, and the one crafting simply gets more money (you sell your feats for money mindset), now if i am correct about the OP deals with crafting feats then your post doesn't apply to this situation because the wizard player simply wants to get money for his feat instead of letting the fighter get money for the wizard's feat.
I was in a similar position, as the item creator. I chose to sell at-cost (50%). The 25% cost that I missed out on would have just been a transfer among party members, not increasing the total pool of party funds. Wanting to control a bigger portion of the party funds seems like a douche move for a party member. I'd rather pay the full 100% to a stranger than 75% to reward the selfishness of someone that's supposed to be on the same side as me.
The whole "I want compensation beyond cost for helping out a teammate" seems absurd, doesn't it? I could understand if they weren't teammates, just random adventurers negotiating a sale.
It's like the dude who wants to hold all the loot until it's distributed. You're just being a greedy bell-end. The fact that the confrontation ended with the Wizard picking up his toys and choosing another feat tells you everything about his priorities. Guess what, wizard? You've got all the bargaining power. When the fighter leaves, you're still a wizard. You could leave and screw over the party. Using leverage against a party member? So that you have more of the party's money? How is this a difficult question?
So, basically you want anyone who takes a magic item crafting feat to become the craft-slave of the party. Although the crafter already saves party members 25% of their magic items costs, you want to force the character into being your slave and not get anything out of it at all, and to boot he will have no free time anymore. Thanks a bunch.
So, basically you want anyone who takes a magic item crafting feat to become the craft-slave of the party. Although the crafter already saves party members 25% of their magic items costs, you want to force the character into being your slave and not get anything out of it at all, and to boot he will have no free time anymore. Thanks a bunch.I was in a similar position, as the item creator. I chose to sell at-cost (50%). The 25% cost that I missed out on would have just been a transfer among party members, not increasing the total pool of party funds. Wanting to control a bigger portion of the party funds seems like a douche move for a party member. I'd rather pay the full 100% to a stranger than 75% to reward the selfishness of someone that's supposed to be on the same side as me.
The whole "I want compensation beyond cost for helping out a teammate" seems absurd, doesn't it? I could understand if they weren't teammates, just random adventurers negotiating a sale.
It's like the dude who wants to hold all the loot until it's distributed. You're just being a greedy bell-end. The fact that the confrontation ended with the Wizard picking up his toys and choosing another feat tells you everything about his priorities. Guess what, wizard? You've got all the bargaining power. When the fighter leaves, you're still a wizard. You could leave and screw over the party. Using leverage against a party member? So that you have more of the party's money? How is this a difficult question?
A smart crafter will make things at no profit for the party, favors and good will are far more valuable than gold.
A smart crafter will make things at no profit for the party, favors and good will are far more valuable than gold.
On that i can agree, also it's a good way to control IC a stupid player, for example:
"No my friend 12th level barbarian i will not make you a magic greataxe for cost, i will make you a magic (keen) falchion or (keen) nodachi for cost, if you really want a magic greataxe i will make it for you for 80% market value."That way i can control stupid and/or stubborn players players, and if they really continue to be stupid/stubborn i will get more money in order to prepare better for the more difficult challenges ahead.
Which one is "right"?
Both are right and neither are. They need to make a deal, RP wise, between their characters and stick to it. There is no 'Game Rule' that states the fighter gets to pay anything other than what the item creator wants to charge for the item.
Craftsmen have sold their wares for what the market will bear since the creation of the concept of economies. Pathfinder RPG is no different.
But the CRAFTER is the one doing the work. If he doesn't like the fighters offer for what he made he is always free to sell the item to another party member or to an NPC, though NPC's will only pay 50% of the items value for it as per the rules (there ARE rules for that) and he won't make a profit doing that.
Frankly it boils down to how altruistic the crafter is (or isn't), how friendly the characters in this situation are (or aren't) and other social/RP reasons.
Hello there,
since the release of the Corerulebook, item creation costs only 50% of the market price and no xp.
Suppose the fighter "orders" a magic item and the wizard creates it (successfully). How do you split the "generated" financial advantage?
In our current group we have two points of view:
The player who nearly always plays warriors states, that he wants the items for 50%, because item creation is not meant to be a "money-generating-machine" for spellcasters. Also, he says, that his fighter doesn´t take money, when he uses his abilities to defend the spellcaster.
The guy who always plays spellcasters wants 75% of market price. He says that he effectively "looses" a feat when he takes an item creation feat. He could use this extra feat for things like Dodge or Toughness, which would improve his chance of survival in combat. So he wants to use the profit to invest in better magic equipment to compensate for the "lost" feat.
Which one is "right"? What methods do you use to split the item creation-profits?
Thank you for posting your most appreciated opinions! :-)
He isn't gaining all the much considering he could be fighting things for drops and exp.
A smart crafter will make things at no profit for the party, favors and good will are far more valuable than gold.Having more effective companions is its own reward. Unless you think your wizard can solo the adventure.
The better equipped the fighter the better he can keep enemies from going after you.
If your crafting lets the fighter get an extra +1 on his weapon one damage off of every hit he makes and all the damage on any hit he makes by 1 is your damage just like the damage increase if you cast haste on him. If your crafting lets him afford an extra +1 on his armor all the damage he does when he would have been unconscious if he hadn't had that +1 is your damage. If he can afford a +1 higher cloak of resistance and makes a save by 1 that would have taken him out of the battle had he failed it every hit he makes for the rest of the battle is your damage.
Crafting for the gear dependent is like casting haste instead of fireball or casting greater magic weapon on the fighter's sword instead of your crossbow.
Are you saying this to counter my statement or support it? I can see it going either way...
Generally I charge between 55% and 75% for interparty item crafting, depending on how my character feels about the asking party member, how long it takes to makes the item (I'll crank out +1 sword all you want for cheap, but a Robe of the Archmagi, that's going to cost you.), and the nature of the item versus my character's nature. Additionally I include any secondary costs, such as having to scribe a new spell into my book.
I have several crafting feats with my current illusionist, I've also purchased a ton of scrolls so I have a vast library of spells at my disposal. For some other characters, I do stuff at cost, some I charge a varying rate (50% to 75% of list), and some I just won't help. There is a disparity in alignments and goals within our group and I won't help certain folks unless it is a life-or-death situation. Others, I perform tasks for free, because I like their attitude. (Including identification, storage of special items, even free items that help them.)
I'd oppose any set costs for other player characters on crafted items. This should be role played IMO. Selling to NPCs is another matter. I'd agree with some of the other posts regarding a Profession(Merchant) or a Diplomacy check (or two) if the player was trying to make a living out of crafting magic items and selling for a profit.
The barbarian in our party had five separate buffs placed on her by the team during our last battle. Her rage, those buffs, and other magic items made her a juggernaut in that battle. (Displacement and Shield Other is a great combo on a barbarian.) Might seem off-topic but in battle we work well as a team, but when it comes to expenses and personal gain, we are very mercenary.
Generally I charge between 55% and 75% for interparty item crafting, depending on how my character feels about the asking party member, how long it takes to makes the item (I'll crank out +1 sword all you want for cheap, but a Robe of the Archmagi, that's going to cost you.), and the nature of the item versus my character's nature. Additionally I include any secondary costs, such as having to scribe a new spell into my book.I have several crafting feats with my current illusionist, I've also purchased a ton of scrolls so I have a vast library of spells at my disposal. For some other characters, I do stuff at cost, some I charge a varying rate (50% to 75% of list), and some I just won't help. There is a disparity in alignments and goals within our group and I won't help certain folks unless it is a life-or-death situation. Others, I perform tasks for free, because I like their attitude. (Including identification, storage of special items, even free items that help them.)
I'd oppose any set costs for other player characters on crafted items. This should be role played IMO. Selling to NPCs is another matter. I'd agree with some of the other posts regarding a Profession(Merchant) or a Diplomacy check (or two) if the player was trying to make a living out of crafting magic items and selling for a profit.
The barbarian in our party had five separate buffs placed on her by the team during our last battle. Her rage, those buffs, and other magic items made her a juggernaut in that battle. (Displacement and Shield Other is a great combo on a barbarian.) Might seem off-topic but in battle we work well as a team, but when it comes to expenses and personal gain, we are very mercenary.
You mean they didn't shackle you to a desk and force you to become their "crafting slave?" What are the odds!?
A smart crafter will make things at no profit for the party, favors and good will are far more valuable than gold.
You are already doing them a favor by crafting everything 25% cheaper than they'd get it by buying it from someone else. Since you ( as a player character ) will have almost no free time at all anymore, I think it is a reasonable thing that you at least get compensated.
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Service for service. The fighter wants a magic item at cost, he should be able to provide an equivalent service - in terms of time required and/or scarcity. A +2 Longsword is what, 9 days construction time (8000gp + masterwork/etc)?
Fantastic. Train my horse. Forge me some equipment for my lab. Make yourself useful, because I could be spending those 9 days copying spells or making scrolls, potions and wands, all of which contribute to party survival as much as your shiny new sword might.
When a spellcaster takes a magic item creation feat, he's already being a team player. He can make stuff for the party to-order. That's a HUGE benefit to the entire party. Even if he's making stuff just for himself (like Craft Rod when he's the only spellcaster), him being better benefits everyone else in the party. Fantastic. Beats the hell out of trying to find a Wizard that's available for hire (depending on the campaign, of course).
But the idea that they should be making stuff at cost...is ruinously unfair. It's smart to discount, sure, for any number of reasons already mentioned, but 'free' labor is like anything else 'free'...it turns people into greedy jerks (the 'free MacDonalds coffee' thing recently comes to mind).
Now, can the fighter make magic items for the spellcaster? No? (Possible but unlikely). That's an inequality. So the fighter should make it up to the spellcaster in another manner. It doesn't have to be about gold - but it CAN be.
So the item crafter should get something for his time and effort. Non-spellcasters should make an effort to HAVE something other than gold to make up for this - because, yes, it IS smart to make things at cost for the party. It's also smart to make the spellcaster not feel like he's being used like a chump. Some stuff takes weeks to make. That's why NPCs charge full price, after all - their time is valuable. The same is no less true of Player Characters.
Personally, I think 10% of market value is 'fair'. That works out to 100gp per day of work, which is a fat wad of gold by normal person's standards, while still being relative chump change by adventurer's standards. It won't create a huge wealth imbalance, gives the spellcaster some extra gold to throw around on his expendables like scrolls and potions, and the fightery types still get lots of magical goodies made.
I'd still rather have a commensurate service, though.
I've yet to see a caster charge more than cost. I hadn't even heard the idea of charging more ever mentioned...!
You don't make a profit FROM the party, you make your profit WITH the party.
A smart crafter will make things at no profit for the party, favors and good will are far more valuable than gold.You are already doing them a favor by crafting everything 25% cheaper than they'd get it by buying it from someone else. Since you ( as a player character ) will have almost no free time at all anymore, I think it is a reasonable thing that you at least get compensated.
Most of the campaigns I PC in the only time you get free time is when someone is crafting. We are always knee deep in one thing or another. Besides, 25% makes some players happy and the others angry, and makes you look greedy (even though you really aren't). "At cost" puts the party in your pocket. I'd have it no other way.
I've yet to see a caster charge more than cost. I hadn't even heard the idea of charging more ever mentioned...!
You don't make a profit FROM the party, you make your profit WITH the party.
You are asking them to reward you from wasting your time to make them stuff. You aren't asking more than shop keepers (after all).
So you aren't really profitting but making a free market.
You are asking them to reward you from wasting your time to make them stuff.
It's a two way street. They are operating as part of a team, and by ensuring that team is well equipped the Crafter is contributing to his own success.
The better equipped THEY are, the more they can achieve, the more profit he makes... and lets face it he's investing the massive effort of a few afternoons in the studio.
If he just wanted to play shopkeeper and go make money selling gear then there's nothing stopping him going and setting up shop somewhere.
It's part of the give and take, but profiting from your fellows directly and turning the relationship into a transactional one should lead to theWizard in turn having to pay for the rest of the services of the party, and start paying for things like captured spellbooks (hey its only 4/5th's price - 80% is a BARGAIN!) rather than be handed them by default.
Clerics can start charging for heals, warriors compensation for wear & tear and pain and suffering, the Rogue might want his expenses covered too...
It gets out of hand quite fast when the party agrees with the Wizard and start following his lead.
It simply stops being a 'party'.
His job in the party is to be a nuker/craftsman, he shouldn't be getting extra money for simply doing his job.
You are asking them to reward you from wasting your time to make them stuff.It's a two way street. They are operating as part of a team, and by ensuring that team is well equipped the Crafter is contributing to his own success.
The better equipped THEY are, the more they can achieve, the more profit he makes... and lets face it he's investing the massive effort of a few afternoons in the studio.
If he just wanted to play shopkeeper and go make money selling gear then there's nothing stopping him going and setting up shop somewhere.
It's part of the give and take, but profiting from your fellows directly and turning the relationship into a transactional one should lead to theWizard in turn having to pay for the rest of the services of the party, and start paying for things like captured spellbooks (hey its only 4/5th's price - 80% is a BARGAIN!) rather than be handed them by default.
Clerics can start charging for heals, warriors compensation for wear & tear and pain and suffering, the Rogue might want his expenses covered too...It gets out of hand quite fast when the party agrees with the Wizard and start following his lead.
It simply stops being a 'party'.
His job in the party is to be a nuker/craftsman, he shouldn't be getting extra money for simply doing his job.
I don't understand the captured spellbook example, if the party finds a spellbook (let's say from a dead enemy mage) then the spellbook is loot, which means that any party member is entitled a portion of it's value, thus if the wizard wants to keep it must offer to the rest of the party a value of gold equal to the amount of their share.
For example let's say a party of 4 poeple finds a spellbook with a selling value of 1000 gp, now each party member's share of the spellbook is 250 gp if the wizard wants to keep the spellbook for himself he must give to the party 750 gp (their share).How does having crafting feats or not affects loot share?
I don't understand the captured spellbook example, if the party finds a spellbook (let's say from a dead enemy mage) then the spellbook is loot, which means that any party member is entitled a portion of it's value, thus if the wizard wants to keep it must offer to the rest of the party a value of gold equal to the amount of their share.
For example let's say a party of 4 poeple finds a spellbook with a selling value of 1000 gp, now each party member's share of the spellbook is 250 gp if the wizard wants to keep the spellbook for himself he must give to the party 750 gp (their share).
How does having crafting feats or not affects loot share?
Apparently, Shifty's groups have a agreement that regardless of fairness of loot, you get stuff that fits your character first.
While most people, use Shared loot claims, you have to give up equal value to get more than your fair share (like spellbook) like you just mentioned.
I follow second belief.
In this case, the wizard could say, "I'll craft each of you an item at cost in exchange for book".
See, that works too as a bargaining chip.
Maybe it's a cultural thing?
I have gamed with quite a few groups in the last nigh on thirty years, and its pretty much been:
Loot is 'CAWU', and 'Need before Greed'.
If a spellbook or wand drops, it goes to the Wizard.
If a suit of mail drops, its is probably going to the fighter.
Trash/unallocated/redundant loot gets sold off and split amongst the party.
Now as to crafting, there has always been a split between 'crafting wizards' and pure blasters. Whilst it is nice to have a crafter on hand, I don't ever recall a party expecting any given character to go the crafter route, and it has always been up to that player. Same way as the Fighter can pick and choose the route to his own development.
The crafter isn't 'wasting' a Feat, as he can happily craft his own kit at half price, and similarly the party doesn't complain he is now LESS of a capable wizard for making the choice he made.
As I say, I have come across umpteen numbers of groups (games cons to homegame tables) and have never seen anyone suggest differently.
My PET HATE though, is when crafting comes up at the game table... save the longwinded conversations and rules checking for offline time - facebook/email/etc :) 'Can I make X?' 'how long will Y take?''How much would Z cost'?
You are asking them to reward you from wasting your time to make them stuff.It's a two way street. They are operating as part of a team, and by ensuring that team is well equipped the Crafter is contributing to his own success.
It's a two-way street, all right. The crafter contributes his time, the other member contributes...what again?
The better equipped THEY are, the more they can achieve, the more profit he makes... and lets face it he's investing the massive effort of a few afternoons in the studio.
By the same logic, the more time he spends crafting, the less time they are adventuring, so the less profit he makes.
As for dismissing 'massive effort of a few afternoons', that's only true for the low end stuff. Anything decent takes a week or more, and plenty of magic items can require an entire month or more dedicated to their construction. A month that could have been spent adventuring, making a HELL of a lot of money.
It's part of the give and take, but profiting from your fellows directly and turning the relationship into a transactional one should lead to theWizard in turn having to pay for the rest of the services of the party, and start paying for things like captured spellbooks (hey its only 4/5th's price - 80% is a BARGAIN!) rather than be handed them by default.
Clerics can start charging for heals, warriors compensation for wear & tear and pain and suffering, the Rogue might want his expenses covered too...
This ignores the fact that spellcasters contribute fully to adventures (and a large segment of the forum agrees they are dominant over the melee classes in terms of power) already. Wizards don't charge to teleport the party. Clerics don't charge to heal the party. Fighters don't charge to stick their swords in things. Oh, and spellbooks can always be sold as loot - after the wizard makes his own copy of the spells (which he has to do anyways, really).
But item crafting uses up the crafter's downtime, which the other members contribute nothing to. Crafting IS NOT adventuring. Maybe from a pure gamist perspective that downtime seems like nothing. From a roleplaying perspective, it's another matter. Crafters have relationships and obligations and even a need to relax. They also have goals and projects of their own. Wizards and Witches (and Magi and Alchemists too, I suppose) all have large demands on their time already. Crafting in the field is even worse. Adventure all day, craft 4 hours, sleep 8 hours, 1 hour prep spells...talk about a grind!
Not to mention expenses incurred by crafting items. Prerequisites can often require a character to acquire a spell - which isn't cheap. Sure, he benefits from acquiring that spell from there on, BUT, if it's a spell he wasn't interested in, or he's low on funds, that's a bad investment he's forced into. And what about lodging costs for that time? Inns aren't free either, but you've just saddled him with days or weeks of bills so you can get a sword upgrade. Never mind the time spent acquiring the ingredients? I don't know about you, but our GM doesn't just let us pour a big bag of money in a pot and out pops a magic item. Masterwork armor doesn't pop out of nowhere, after all.
Sure Helic,
But thats his job.
You don't get extra pay for doing what you are supposed to be doing anyway.
Perhaps the party should charge him a daily rate for making them sit around losing income while he makes HIS items?
Anyhow, different at different tables I suppose... but I don't think it would be a the sort of conversation at most tables that would see the player not invited back.
What a 'loot-w**re' would probably be the consensus.
Along with Clerics who ask for money for healing the party.
You make a point about buying certain spells and the like, well thats where some negotiation comes in - one offs and consumables are usually drawn from a party pot, as some of the wealth share gets put aside for general funds. Similarly, distribution over time (wealth) is also tracked so that if someone is getting dudded they can be allocated a better share of the sold loot later to even things up.
It all works quite well if you take a long term view.
Masterwork armor doesn't pop out of nowhere, after all.
It sure does now! in less than one hour! Thanks UM!
Masterwork armor doesn't pop out of nowhere, after all.It sure does now! in less than one hour! Thanks UM!
Masterwork armor can pop out of thin air in core. For the bargain cost of about 50 gp actually, and a couple of spells. Admittedly you'll actually have to pay for the materials for anything not made out of iron or stone, but hey, it's worked for years. ^-^
@ the OP:
I tell them we aren't playing lawyers and accountants.
(bonus points for those that can find where the reference is from)
Masterwork armor can pop out of thin air in core.
I love the new Insta-M/W spell.
It's a shame though that crafting as it stands is so broken that I am happy to bypass it.
The idea that it is based off the price of the item hits silly sauce really fast. Gold is harder and takes longer to craft with than Iron? Really?
One day we will get a decent crafting system in place.
Wanna know how to make an infinite amount of money out of thin air in core? Wall of Stone + Fabricate + Take 10 on a craft (sculpting) check to make an art objects instantly. As trade goods, art objects can be traded as gold.
EDIT: For the record, this is merely one of many tricks. Eventually the PCs are going to become very powerful, and at that point raw monetary gain takes a backseat to class features and caster level (or effective caster level) to craft their own items. The sky is the limit on how PCs can harvest raw materials, trade goods, and whatever to make money.
If you really want to limit PC power at high levels, enforce the magic item purchase rules. Anything above X is not easily available, and the only way to assuredly get the magic items they want is to craft them or to have them crafted by an appropriately leveled NPC (which may come with questing or game participation, as anyone powerful enough to make these probably has no need for money either).