Bard?
If he is going to this PrC from sorcerer and it's doing that for gaining the ability to do something in melee tell him that this isn't going to happen and it's better being a human sorcerer who can take an extra new spell per level instead of the hit point.
Now if your player wants to gimp his character for no reason than be a dragon disciple for roleplaying (i almost did that one time but decided to make a ranger because the party didn't had a full BAB) then simply warn him and let him do it if he so insists.
Swapping in a new character at level 7, and the player wants to try a sorceror 5 / Dragon disciple 2.We've rolled and arranged stats, and he has a 12 Str (will go up to 14 with the DD Str boost), 14 Dex, and 18 Cha.
Reading over the dragon disciple, at this level it looks like you're swapping one level of spellcasting ability for being a backup melee fighter. Unbuffed, this PC would get claw/claw/bite at +5 for d4+2/d4+2/ d6+3. That's not horrible, but against CR 7+ opponents it's not usually going to do much.
I'm a little worried that the player will be disappointed, so I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on the build. I can see two routes here: go as a straight spellcaster who very occasionally jumps into melee when the stars are just right (i.e., fighting a bunch of goblins or something), or take a lot of buff spells and use them to make the character plausible in melee.
Thoughts?
Doug M.
Good dragon disciple builds for melee are not going to be straight sorcerer and they don't have 14 str. If the player wants to melee he needs to have a high starting str, 16 minimum. 5 bard/10 dragon disciple is a nice option. vanilla bard or arcane duelist come to mind. then he can at least wear armor and probably buff the group quite well.
4 paladin/1 sorc/10 dragon disciple can be fun for a metallic dragon disciple. Barbarian/fighter is another nice entry. 14 str no armor does not belong in melee on purpose.
I`m not sure why so many people want to go from straight Sorceror into Dragon Disciple. It just doesn`t synergize well.
As mentioned, Bard is a good option, especially with APG and now UC archetypes.
Otherwise, you can take just ONE level or Sorceror, and 4 more levels of a Full BAB class.
Paladin will leverage any CHA for great Saves, Fighter has Feats and various abilities depending on Archetype,
Barbarian has Rage Powers (and inconvenience if you want to alternate melee and casting round to round, due to Rage). Ranger too, I guess.
With either the 1 level of Sorceror + 4 levels Full BAB approach, or the Bard, realize that you don`t really need/want a super high CHA score, at least in point-buy, since that takes away from your physical stats you need to be an effective combatant. You will want a CHA high enough to cast spells as you gain them, but you can account for headbands and the like so starting out you shouldn`t need more than a 13 or 14. A high casting stat doesn`t actually affect many spells, i.e. those that don`t force an enemy to make a Save, so it`s better focusing elsewhere. Do note that it will be very tempting to dip back into your base `martial` class (or others) as you level up, since their Class abilities may be just as compelling as what Dragon Disciple grants. This is OK, though like many multi-classing options, you should look for the `tiers` which really make a difference, and make sure you reach one of those if you can`t reach them for both classes. Lots of people don`t find the final 2 levels of Dragon Disciple So compelling, and even if you do finish it, you will be finishing off your levels (if you go to 20) with other classes: either melee, or pure Sorceror, or Eldritch Knight.
EDIT: grasshopper said the same thing, but shorter :-)
DD isn't a caster class that can melee, its a melee class that can cast.
You don't need an 18 charisma. You're unlikely to play to the point that you're casting level 8 spells. 14 cha will do fine. 12 is ok for dex , 18 would be sweet for strength. You can do a LOT of damage with this class.
Post all six stats, I'll see what i can whip up, and we'll see if it'll make your player happier than what he has.
DD isn't a caster class that can melee, its a melee class that can cast.
That.
Can you swap the Str with charisma? If it's a fighter who casts then you need to build him with str in mind if its a caster who fights then you need to put char as you main stat.
If you choose to go Barbarian -> Sorcerer -> DD, then the rage power "Moment of Clarity" is good. You can effectively drop out of rage for one round, cast a spell, and resume rage.
That sounds awful.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/toMakeAVillian&page=1#13
I made a sorc1/fighter4/dd10/ek5. Fairly solid character. Paladin also works well. Ranger has some synergy too with the natural weapon combat style. I found it to be very fun to play.
|
If you choose to go Barbarian -> Sorcerer -> DD, then the rage power "Moment of Clarity" is good. You can effectively drop out of rage for one round, cast a spell, and resume rage.That sounds awful.
Do you have a reason why this perfectly valid tactic is awful, or did you just want to be part of the discussion?
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Your player needs 5 levels before changing to DD.
I agree with the others here in this thread, that with the goal of going DD you do melee/weapon damage and cast for buffs/are a secondary caster.
If he is dead set on Sorc, suggest to him taking at least one level of ranger/barbarian/fighter - fits better fluff wise (for me at least - where I'm GM, paladin and multiclassing is an absolute no-go, from a min-max paladin is perfect).
For DD - have you considered going ranged combat?
With sorc1/ ranger3/ sorc1 / DD10 /restX ranger would give you a first combat feat (for which you do not have to fulfill prereqs), fav enemy+terrain, mart weapon prof.
With fighter you would get two more combat feats - here I would actually go for sorc1/ fighter4/ DD10 /restX for weapon specialization.
Highest stat into Str, second highest into Dex or Cha with stat increases going into either one.
As dragon I would suggest black/green or copper - acid is one where fewer monsters have resist.
Ruyan.
Always have to give a shout out to the Battle Sorcerer.
The real synergy here is for Sorcerer/Fighter (or other full base attack classes). They get better at spell casting and melee which is what those classes are about.
|
If you choose to go Barbarian -> Sorcerer -> DD, then the rage power "Moment of Clarity" is good. You can effectively drop out of rage for one round, cast a spell, and resume rage.That sounds awful.
Please, I am curious about why this is awful. If there is a good reason to avoid this, I would like to know. The whole point of MoC is the ability to do something like this. If the barbarian ended his rage to cast a spell, he would be fatigued for a number of rounds and so unable to rage again.
I made this character to go DD for the PBP im in. A level of fighter means better weapons. And mage armor is a good substitute for armor. Other advice would be to focus on self buffs much more than I did and take shield and bulls strength. Even a squishy caster is tough to hit if you stack all the low level buffs together. Also, toughness, get it, love it.
I think people don`t like Moment of Clarity because you`re paying for a Rage Power that doesn`t do anything per se, and you`re still paying the Rage Rounds to get no benefit... All to use other abilities you already have, presumably. I does do that job well, and (depending how it works re: Rage Powers) may also be useful for Superstitious (dropping your very-high Saves that you must make vs. ALL spells while Raging).
On the other hand, with the same Rage Power opportunity cost you can take the 1/day Rage Power giving you immunity to Fatigue once/day that increases to Exhaustion when you drop out of the 2nd Rage - And that is useful in more situations, such as when the enemy drops you into Fatigue before you can even Rage. Human Alt-Racial Ability also gives you 1/day Fatigue Immunity, and there are other options as well: Horizon Walker I believe, allied Casters/Familars removing Fatigue from you, and eventually at high levels you gain Endless Rage (or something) which makes it so Rage no longer Fatigues you and prevents immediate re-Raging.
I tend to avoid Moment of Clarity unless it`s requires (it is for the Rage Prophet PrC), and try to just Cast before Rage/combat starts, and have some of the Fatigue immunities available for the few times when pre-combat casting doesn`t cut it for whatever reason. Again, Fatigue immunities are nice for more than just re-starting Rage after dropping it to Cast a spell... Besides being able to enter Rage when you`re Fatigued, it also allows `Rage cycling` tactics to get off more than 1 1/Rage Rage Powers per battle... While Moment of Clarity does... nothing, except let you spend a Rage Round to get no benefits (or penalties).
Anyhow, that`s probably way too many words than somebody who wrote 3 words `that sounds awful` deserves in response.
|
|
... stuff ...
Anyhow, that`s probably way too many words than somebody who wrote 3 words `that sounds awful` deserves in response.
I would like to think that I deserve as many words as you wrote.
I did not start this thread, but I probably gleaned more than the original poster.
This character was created as a barbarian with the intent to become a barbarian/sorcerer. But I scuttled that plan with the release of the magus class, which is what I wanted in the first place. I would either abandon the character or plan a different future.
I think your post refers to the rage power "Roused Anger", which allows the barbarian to rage while fatigued. Either option would allow the barb. to cast a spell "while raging" but at a cost. In one case, the price is a wasted round of rage. In the other case, the cost is 10 minutes of exhaustion rather than 2 rounds of fatigue (per round of rage).