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This discussion has probably come up before, but I couldn't find it.
The question is, exactly what are you options with standing from prone? Since it's not actually a move action it looks like Acrobatics, by RAW, cannot be used to avoid the AoO. Is this correct?
If so, is there any way to avoid the AoO from standing?
It seems to me that an acrobatic character should be able to find a way to at least get a check to avoid the AoO without too much effort.
The only way I've found is to use a rogue talent to 5-ft crawl away then stand, but even this is only good if the opponent does not have reach (which is relatively common). This bothers me on two levels. One, it doesn't really prevent the AoO from standing, it just gets you out of the way first. Two, it can only be done by a rogue and several other classes (such as Monk) seem like they should be able to do such a thing as well.
If so, is there any way to avoid the AoO from standing?
Yes. Crawl away that way you avoid the AoO from standing (you provoke one from crawling but you can't have everything).
The surest method is to wild shape into a snake and just slither away.
I posted a list of ideas elsewhere.
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If so, is there any way to avoid the AoO from standing?Yes. Crawl away that way you avoid the AoO from standing (you provoke one from crawling but you can't have everything).
The surest method is to wild shape into a snake and just slither away.
I posted a list of ideas elsewhere.
So the short and skinny of it is that there is absolutely no way to simply stand-up from prone without provoking in a simple fashion. You have to get creative. Your elite acrobatics skills are useless here, young padawan, move along.
This disappoints me. It seems hard to imagine a character that can reliably double-backflip over a high level fighter without leaving themselves open, but can't get off their butt next to a puppy without doing so.
Well, it looks like it's house rule time. I'll probably propose an "Acro against CMD + 5" type rule to my group.
I've seen this somewhere before, not sure how 'official' it is ...
Move 5' while prone (requires a FULL MOVE ACTION) -- Opponent's CMD +5
Acrobat check to avoid AoO.
Edit: To clarify the unclear ... Using that example, I'd say standing would require a much higher DC to avoid AoC's.
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This has happened often in my campaign and, barring any official ruling, I've been using the DC for tumbling past an opponent (DC=CMD.) The character may not move from the square it is when standing in this manner but may use another move action to go somewhere else or even use it's standard action to attack, cast a spell, etc.
There is a rule for it in one of the 3.5 books (Complete Adventurer or Scoundrel I think,) but I don't remember which and I think the DC was something like 35, which is pretty freakin' high for a low level character to pull off.
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This has happened often in my campaign and, barring any official ruling, I've been using the DC for tumbling past an opponent (DC=CMD.) The character may not move from the square it is when standing in this manner but may use another move action to go somewhere else or even use it's standard action to attack, cast a spell, etc.
There is a rule for it in one of the 3.5 books (Complete Adventurer or Scoundrel I think,) but I don't remember which and I think the DC was something like 35, which is pretty freakin' high for a low level character to pull off.
IIRC that DC was not for standing up without provoking, but for standing up as a free action.
I'm going to leave my house-rule suggestion as CMD+5, because it is certainly harder to get off your butt without leaving yourself open than it is to move past someone without leaving yourself open.
@Noah, the DC for moving right through the opponent is only CMD+5, I can hardly expect to ask for a higher result for standing up next to them.
For what it's worth, I try to make house rules with existing feats and abilities specifically in mind, so as to not make them useless.
For example, the Rogue Talent, Rogue Crawl ...
Rogue Crawl (Ex): While prone, a rogue with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A rogue with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.
With this, you can take a 5' step, then stand up, quite possibly avoiding the threat of AoO's altogether.
That being said, if acrobatics makes it too easy to stand and avoid AoO's, it will obsolete this talent. You also run the risk of reducing the effectiveness of trip as well here.
I'd say the old 3.5 rule of 35, as loosely recollected by Velcro Zipper above, would be closer to what I feel appropriate so as to not obsolete Rogue Crawl.
More appropriately, Opponent's CMD + 10, +2 per additional attacker, to reflect the combat prowess of the enemy.
Taking a full move action to accomplish this stand may even provide a +5 to the skill check, if you're inclined to go so far.
I'd much prefer being able to defend myself than lying prone or taking multiple 'free' shots from the enemy.
@ StabbittyDoom - You're not moving right through your enemy, but through the square occupied by the enemy at 1/2 speed. You hardly have the same level of agility and quickness while lying flat on your back. Lest we also not forget that 1/2 speed reflects timing, which is crucial when moving past enemies.
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I wasn't referring to avoiding an AoO when crawling, only when standing. You can already try when crawling without provoking (you can always move at 5' as a full-round action even if hampered, so you can always 5'-acro-crawl).
And I don't believe this obsoletes the talent at all. Sure, rogue crawl lets you move away 5' before standing, but also lets you effectively move behind short cover (like a low wall) to make it total cover, or move between ranged attacks or even do a shot-on-the-run from under the bushes. Remember that you get a bonus to AC against ranged attacks when prone, so approaching a defensive location filled with archers while prone would be a great idea, except it's slow. This fixes that. Take it with fast stealth and ledge walker and you can be where you want to be completely unnoticed.
In short, I always thought of it is a stealth/guerrilla warfare talent, not a "get out of prone free" card, though it certainly performs that function. And it does so without a check or risk, which my proposal requires.
And again, the DC35 acro check from 3.5 was NOT to avoid the AoO, it was to stand as a free action (which still provoked). Move->Free is more worthwhile than provoke->safe.
You can house rule whatever you want, but keep in mind, by RAW, no one can crawl without provoking AoO ...
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
There's a reason standing up provokes, and there are a few creative ways around it and one Rogue Talent. I just think it should be left at that. You may not think it renders Rogue Crawl useless, but it definitely hinders its usefulness, as well as affecting trip BIG TIME.
And again, I know what the DC 35 was from and for, I merely suggested it would be closer to the DC for standing without provoking, as it should be very difficult to avoid.
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You forget that acrobatics is done as part of *any* movement, including crawl. At worst they have to take the -10 "moving at full speed" penalty to do this without needing Rogue Crawl.
And trip would not be rendered useless. It still forces the opponent to spend an action on standing, and even with an acro check they can potentially fail and still get an AoO against them. On top of that, greater trip makes you provoke when you fall, not just when standing, so a trip specialist would be at the same point against an acro specialist as a normal fighter is against a normal opponent (i.e. one AoO per trip).
Maybe your team only plays the simple "flat ground, start at 10 paces" type of combat, but mine certainly does not. Rogue Talents are, by and large, most effective when you avoid that type of situation, and Rogue Crawl is no exception.
CMD+5 IS very difficult to avoid. A well-trained acro character would have about a +10 at first level, against CMDs of about 14-15 (or higher). This means that they only have a 50-60% chance to avoid the AoO. Less against good fighters. At very high levels they won't be able to succeed at all against some creatures (such as the tarrasque) as the CMD is simply too high.
To sum up: I want an option that's simple, not one that feels stupid and cheesy. I don't want to make my character learn to slither like a snake just to get off their butt without being hit for it, or to pick up a tower shield or some such to do the same. The least cheesy idea I've heard was to use dirty trick to do a 1-round blind before standing.
You forget that acrobatics is done as part of *any* movement, including crawl. At worst they have to take the -10 "moving at full speed" penalty to do this without needing Rogue Crawl.
And trip would not be rendered useless. It still forces the opponent to spend an action on standing, and even with an acro check they can potentially fail and still get an AoO against them. On top of that, greater trip makes you provoke when you fall, not just when standing, so a trip specialist would be at the same point against an acro specialist as a normal fighter is against a normal opponent (i.e. one AoO per trip).
Maybe your team only plays the simple "flat ground, start at 10 paces" type of combat, but mine certainly does not. Rogue Talents are, by and large, most effective when you avoid that type of situation, and Rogue Crawl is no exception.
CMD+5 IS very difficult to avoid. A well-trained acro character would have about a +10 at first level, against CMDs of about 14-15 (or higher). This means that they only have a 50-60% chance to avoid the AoO. Less against good fighters. At very high levels they won't be able to succeed at all against some creatures (such as the tarrasque) as the CMD is simply too high.
To sum up: I want an option that's simple, not one that feels stupid and cheesy. I don't want to make my character learn to slither like a snake just to get off their butt without being hit for it, or to pick up a tower shield or some such to do the same. The least cheesy idea I've heard was to use dirty trick to do a 1-round blind before standing.
Why is it when people ask for help, ideas, and suggestions, many of them get all defensive and insulting?
Acrobatics is indeed done as *any* part of movement, but please point me in the direction of anywhere in the RAW you move 5' when you stand. It's a move action, and not part of movement, therefore, Acrobatics is entirely useless when standing.
Like I said, do what you want. It appears you were looking more for justification, not assistance.
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@InVinoVeritas: That isn't a terrible ruling either. I probably wouldn't use it (I don't want to make Combat Reflexers and Trippers cry by presenting them with a Get-out-of-AoO-Free Card,) but it isn't a terrible ruling.
I try to make house rules with existing feats and abilities specifically in mind, so as to not make them useless.
That's a good way to do things. I don't think my houserule is removing the value of Rogue Crawl but, then, none of the rogues have ever taken that talent so maybe it is (note to self: punish rogues for not taking Rogue Crawl.)
@StabbittyDoom: If you're going to go with DC=CMD+5 to stand for free, howabout using DC=CMD to stand as a move? That way, characters have an option if they suspect their Acro score isn't up to snuff.
Way I figure it, Rogue Crawl lets a creature crawl and stand as two moves without a roll or an AoO (unless the opponent has reach.) Rolling Acrobatics would give the creature a chance to stand, crawl or both with a chance of failure provoking an AoO. The gamble seems to be the creature is betting it can jump to its feet fast enough to avoid the attack rather than taking the two moves to completely avoid the attack. If the creature loses the bet, he's could wind up paying for it. Whether or not that steals Rogue Crawl's thunder, I'm not sure.
This discussion has probably come up before, but I couldn't find it.
The question is, exactly what are you options with standing from prone? Since it's not actually a move action it looks like Acrobatics, by RAW, cannot be used to avoid the AoO. Is this correct?
Well, standing up from prone IS a move action--but if I'm reading the post right, that's the problem, because it's a full action to use Acrobatics to safely tumble away 5 feet, so you can't do both at the same time.
Per RAW, the best thing to do would be to indeed use Acrobatics to use that full action, and make sure your buddies step in so that your attacker does not follow you, and then you can take a move action on your next turn to stand. The nice thing is the Acrobatics check to move at least is NOT an actual five foot step, so your enemy cannot use Step Up to follow.
D20 Modern had a "kip-up" maneuver, which is simply to be able to stand from prone as a free action---combine this with the Acro-5-foot-crawl, and you're up in one turn. One possibility is to turn that into a feat.
The other way I might allow it as a house rule is make the Acro-5-foot-crawl end with you standing up--still a full action, but you're on your feet without AOO by the end of the turn. Yes, the difficulty is still high, but it SHOULD be difficult to be flat on your face and a few seconds later backflipping back onto your feet.
I have no idea what's actually in there, but it's always possible Ultimate Combat will introduce other options as well.
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Another option:
From Acrobatics: You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.
So, if you replace "move 5 feet" with "stand up," you've got:
You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to stand up, and the DC is increased by 5.
and you're basically at CMD+5 to stand as a full round action with no AoO.
It's a house rule and a Full Round, but it definitely doesn't stomp on Rogue Crawl's toes.
By "realistic" means, it should be somewhat possible - I mean, shaolin monks and the lot have special training just for that (friend of mine is able to stand up extremely fast from lieing prone and he only had some years of martial art practise, tough he would've some problems if armed guys would attack him while he's doing that I guess - but nonetheless, this is one thing martial artists train)
There already is a means to kip-up, or 'instant stand' ...
Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.
The issue here is avoiding AoO's, which, IMO, can't be done when standing from prone in the same spot with one or more enemies threatening you.
IMO, it can't be done without moving out of that square by RAW or realism.
Imagine, if you will, this scenario happening IRL. You're down, and in serious trouble. Chances are the best means of escaping unharmed would have your friends distract those threatening you, i.e. drawing the AoO's away, so you can stand freely. Only those with Combat Reflexes would then be a threat. The only other option I see is getting the heck out of the position you're in by first moving away, then standing.
I think I'll stop there. That's all I really have to say on this matter.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Helpful summary, since there is getting to be an accumulation of houserule suggestions and "what's realistic" discussions:
What you can do by RAW:
• Leave a threatened square while not prone, making an Acrobatics check to avoid provoking (DC=CMD if moving half speed, or CMD+10 for full speed, and +2 DC per enemy you avoid past the first, and +5 DC to move through the enemy's actual space). You can only do this while unencumbered (light armor/load only, unless an ability allows you to move at full speed while encumbered). This is a move action.
• Move 5 feet while prone, making an Acro check to avoid provoking, using the above DCs plus 5. This is a full-round action.
What you can NOT do by RAW (would need a houserule):
• Stand up from prone (regardless of type of action) while making any kind of Acrobatics check (whatever the DC) to avoid provoking. By RAW, standing provokes, period.
Lots of interesting houserule suggestions. Just wanted to clarify RAW for any potentially-bewildered newcomers to the thread. :)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Players handbook under acrobatics pg 88"You can use Acrobatics in this way while
prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move
5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5."This is the only way the rules let you stand without a specific ability or feat and avoid the AoO.
The rule you cited has nothing to do with standing up.
You move 5 feat from the threatened area (if possible) and stand up as a move action, without provoking AoO, in the next round.
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Prepare to have your minds blown. In the Complete Scoundrel, page 88.
Nimble Stand [Movement]
You can rely on your acrobatic talent to stand up from prone safely.
Prerequisite: Tumble 8 ranks
Benefit: you can stand up from prone without provoking attacks of opportunity.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5
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I've played in systems where being trained in Acrobatics allowed you to make a set-DC check to reduce standing to a swift action. It still provokes, though.
Would love to see this become part of the rules. It would still require something special to avoid provoking.
Maybe it could be a basic part of Acrobatics, but require a certain number of ranks.
The feat tax of Improved Unarmed Strike to get Monkey Style really is quite minor when you consider how much Monkey Style actually gives. If you really are worried about vulnerability while prone then why not take it? Really adding redundant feats seems like a bit of a waste to me. If you do opt to house rule something then simply relaxing the requirements for Monkey Style seems more than adequate.