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The problem with coding it as feats is that Feats are additive. whereas the Archetypes are substitute-oriented in that they take away as they grant. And some make over a character a lot more than others. (the geisha comes to mind)
And one really has to ask do you really need to add these shinies to the MUSH?, will game play suffer if the new toys aren't added? Will it be worth the downtime necessary? Those are questions that should be put to the community at large as well. If it's only a small group that wants the new shinies they're asking a lot of the majorority to put up with what will need to be done to implement it. And even if it is a majority decision they're asking a lot of the coders as well especially if it's as I suspect a free and volounteer run effort.
Not necessary at all, which is why it's no big loss if this can't be done. Nevertheless, it doesn't hurt to have a look to see if options do exist.
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How very judgemental of you (plural). Asking for help about the game on the message boards of the publisher, and saying it's the "wrong crowd". Shame, UR. Shame. Is this group so super secret that only certain members are allowed to invite people? Until the quoted statement, I was fine.
Don't bother responding, I'm not reading.
*shrug* Some communities/games are not open to invites. Perhaps it's made quite clear that whoever runs the MUSH feels this way, and therefore UR is simply following the rules of the people in charge by not naming or linking it here on these boards.
I'd disagree with placing the onus on UR.
One should also understand that archetypes are a very new and different mechanic for the game. Overhauling a MUSH to do them is going to be a formidable body of work, especially if you're going to be fair and try to put in the whole system. I can understand why the Wizards of that MUSH would be very reluctant to implement the system.
Your best bet at this point would be to go for a scaled down implementation say one or two archetypes per class pick what's going to be used and go from there.
This is likely some good advice. Though depending on the system they have, my solution of a feat that replaces a score of class features with other ones and grants a free bonus feat may be a possibility. In NWN I could replace most class features this way, though you'd still lose a feat.
Impossible to know for sure without knowing the technicals of your specific Mush though.
I would say that if you can implement a few as PRCs to see how well received they are, that is your best bet. Otherwise, the only real option sounds like a feat here or there.
I was hesitant to mention the MUSH as I'm not supposed to advertise it here (the people that run the game think the Paizo forum crowd is generally of the wrong demeanour to let into the game).How very judgemental of you (plural). Asking for help about the game on the message boards of the publisher, and saying it's the "wrong crowd". Shame, UR. Shame. Is this group so super secret that only certain members are allowed to invite people? Until the quoted statement, I was fine.
Don't bother responding, I'm not reading.
It's not like Pathfinder-based MU*'s are terrible hard to locate if one was so inclined. But there's a far cry from having the occasional new face pop in and have a look about, and actively advertise in public. If the game isn't ready for, or interested in, the latter, then that's their decision. No need to get all huffy about it. :)
I would like to give this idea a whirl. Some of the archetypes could be made into PrCs and some into feats... Ok, give me a list of priorities, which archetypes you want first, and I'll see what I can do. BUT, but, I'll admit I'm flakey and have a tendency of starting a project and then lose focus, or writing on paper but being very lazy about typing it up on the PC, so give me a list of what you want and I'll see what I can do before losing interest.
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It's not like Pathfinder-based MU*'s are terrible hard to locate if one was so inclined. But there's a far cry from having the occasional new face pop in and have a look about, and actively advertise in public. If the game isn't ready for, or interested in, the latter, then that's their decision. No need to get all huffy about it. :)
I think some people are getting the feeling that there is an attitude of "You're not good enough to join, but your good enough to do the work to fix things for us" I don't think that was UR's intent, but I can see how that attitude could be interpreted, I know I got that sense. Its some of the wording choices she used. I will repeat however, that even though I get that feeling through her posts, that she actually believes that. She was trying to get help while respecting the wishes of the community she plays in. So while I don't have an issue with UR, I do kind of take offense to being labeled as unfit for this community by people who don't know me, not that I have any interesting in joining.
On topic here, asking on how to implement software fixes when you don't know how the underlying code works is not likely to get a lot of results. I understand and respect your desire to keep the project under wraps, however I just don't think you will get a lot of usable ideas. Its hard to fix something if you don't know how it works on the inside. And with code, its hard to come up with a way to fix the code if you dont know how its written.
Furthermore, it just doesn't sound POSSIBLE to implement these archetypes as feats, not if you want to replicate the entire archetype. The problem is, as has been stated, that archetypes REPLACE certain features, which then leave your feats open to use for other things. With this system, you wouldn't be replacing the normal features, and you'd be losing feats you need to make your character to work to add what should be base features of a class. Unless of course this is what you wanted, but I think a lot of the features aren't worth having as feats, compared with the opportunity cost of feats you are NOT able to take. My 2 coppers.
It's hard to use most of the Archetypes with what you are describing, are you looking for a generic system to add everything or what?
It looks like I'm not going to get any advice here. What I'm trying to do this for is a community of over 100 players that uses this program.
#1 - You seem to want Archetypes, but your computer software cannot handle it. You have not told as anything about the software, so you are not going to get any specific troubleshooting tips from the forums. If you want those specific tips, try telling people what program you're using in the first place.
#2 - You have gotten plenty of advice, but you have shot it all down. You got "play somewhere else," which is always a fair enough suggestion when you are unhappy with your gaming environment. You also got "update your computer software," which you presumably shot down because of community reasons. Again, we don't know what you're using, so we can't help you with that. #3, you could add new class profiles, like someone else suggested. It seems to me like you want an instant, one-click and presto solution, which you will not get without being more specific.
Can you add arcane schools, cleric domains, rage powers, sorcerer bloodlines and rogue talents? That would take care of sorcerers clerics and wizards as far as the APG goes. Most of the rogue archetypes could be made into feats and talents.
Umbral Reaver:
I have a lot of experience playing text-based games and helped run a few. I have also tried starting a couple up, and MUSH being one of them, I will say this: coding is not -that- hard, though it is definitely work. If your coder isn't up to the challenge, s/he shouldn't be your coder. That, or get more people you can trust that can read a few guides online.
This isn't an answer to the question you asked, but it's a solution to the problem you have.
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I think some people are getting the feeling that there is an attitude of "You're not good enough to join, but your good enough to do the work to fix things for us" I don't think that was UR's intent, but I can see how that attitude could be interpreted, I know I got that sense. Its some of the wording choices she used. I will repeat however, that even though I get that feeling through her posts, that she actually believes that. She was trying to get help while respecting the wishes of the community she plays in. So while I don't have an issue with UR, I do kind of take offense to being labeled as unfit for this community by people who don't know me, not that I have any interesting in joining.
This, +1.
Absolutely. These kids crap all over home brew ideas in the home brew forum. Why on Earth would you invite them to game with you.
It looked like irony to me at first, but then I thought I remembered you from a take on an E6 Wizard or sorcerer. I repeat and clarify : asking for an E6 class working eratically, well outside the normal powers of a classic wizard and with a totally independent format... on a Pathfinder forum.
When you are on a Windows forum, post something looking like linux code and are asking for advice which you probably won't get because people don't even know where to start or why you're asking here, maybe you'd better ask yourself why no one helped you efficiently instead of playing the lordly man. Just sayin'.
So, what do you do if you're playing in a game that does not allow archetypes and never will? It is not even up for debate. The game cannot abide archetypes on the most fundamental level (i.e. limited character sheet code).
This is not a question of altering the code. How would you go about dismantling the archetypes and turning them into feats and/or prestige classes instead? Has anyone already done this?
The solution is blatantly obvious. Either get a new program or switch to the old fashioned pencil & paper method.
You can't dismantle archetypes into feats... archetypes change fundamental class abilities. Also, if your software is so rigid that you can't easily add the archetypes, I hardly see why it would allow you to just pick up random bonus feats.
As far as prestige classes go... if you can easily add prestige classes but you can't add regular classes, then just add it as a new prestige class with 1-2 base requirements of a level 1 character of the associated class. I don't think there are any archetypes that modify level 1 abilities (I could be wrong though...), so just do that. Your software will probably make you lose your favored class bonuses, but hey, that's just the price you'll pay for not changing software...
Geez, aren't you people working hard at being plotholes, huh? The OP made a specific request with a specific set of parameters, if your best solution is 'change your software' then what in blazes are you even doing in a homebrew forum? "I hardly see why it would allow you to just pick up random bonus feats." No, she asked for new feats to add to the list of feats that you would normally choose, not bonus feats. "archetypes change fundamental class abilities" Again, no, archetypes usually substitute some abilities.
Gah, now I'm angry. Alright, just prove it CAN be done I'll come back friday with several feats and ideas for PrCs based on the Archetypes.
Prestige classes don't seem the way to go. You'd need to make a different one for every combination of applicable archetypes, and, contrary to what AerynTahlro said, many many many archetypes replace 1st-level abilities. So that seems a bit cumbersome.
What I've got here is also cumbersome... but does it "work" ?
This is three feats which would replace the first few alterations done by the cad fighter archetype (ultimate combat). Basically, you take one, it does some ability swapping, and then it gives you a new feat slot.
Cad 1 (Combat)
Prerequisite Fighter level 1
Benefit You lose proficiency with medium and heavy armor and tower shields, unless you receive those proficiencies from feats or a class other than fighter. You treat Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth as class skills. You gain a bonus feat when you take this feat.
Cad 2 (Combat)
Prerequisite Fighter level 2, bravery class feature
Benefit You lose the bravery class ability. You receive a +1 bonus on disarm, dirty trick, and steal combat maneuver checks. You also gain a +1 bonus to CMD against those maneuvers. These bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels after 2nd. You gain a bonus combat feat when you take this feat.
Cad 3 (Combat)
Prerequisite Fighter level 3, armor training 1 class feature
Benefit You lose the armor training 1 class ability. You gain Catch Off-Guard as a bonus feat. In additional, you gain a bonus feat when you take this feat.
P.S. if it's impossible to give commands to the code along the lines of "remove ability x" in a feat, you can just create "negative abilities" which negate the swapped-out feature. For instance, with the Cad 2 feat, you could have it decrease the fighter's will save against fear effects by the same amount bravery usually boosts it—thus negating, and 'swapping out,' bravery.
If what you want instead is archetype abilities made available to all classes, as more general feats, that would also be doable. Someone earlier in this thread had a hissy fit about the idea of uncanny dodge being equivalent to a feat, but really, it is. Just give it a bunch of prerequisites (ability scores, class features, whatever). With the proper parameters, pretty much any class feature can be provided as a feat in my opinion.
Good luck to the OP!
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Just a thought; if the system won't let you chain additional bonus feats as Flak proposes I think to have it play right (depending on the limitations of the system) Flak's notion of penalties to the "replaced" ability and the bonuses of the alternate ability would need to be attached to new versions of previously existing feats.
You would basically need archetype permutations of feats.
A version of whatever feat that in addition adds and subtracts the abilities detailed from the archetype. That would lead to a *lot* of extra feats though...
On a separate note I recall that WOTC's old Unearthed Arcana book (I think) had some rules and notes about simplified classes and gave some thought on basically breaking down class abilities into feats by tiering them and so on. Not a solution per se but might be worth reviewing. I used to think it was helpful, many years later it may not be. Rose colored glasses and all.
Just because the abilities USED to be substitutive doesn't mean they HAVE to be. If you're burning a feat on something you don't want to lose an abilitie. You've already used a feat slot.
The APG Barbarian:
Rage Powers: (Umbral Reaver hasn't answered yet, so I made them rage powers, if the system can't take that I will make them into feats later)
Destructive: When raging, whenever the barbarian makes a melee attack that targets an unattended object or makes a sunder combat maneuver, she adds half her barbarian level (minimum +1) on the damage roll.
Raging Drunk: While raging, the barbarian can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A potion has its normal effect, while an alcoholic drink allows the barbarian to maintain her rage that round without expending a round of rage for the day (instead of the alcohol’s normal effects). For each alcoholic drink consumed while raging, the barbarian is nauseated for 1 round when her rage expires, in addition the normal fatigue that follows a rage. Tireless rage does not negate this nauseated condition but the internal fortitude rage power does.
Feats:
Savage Grapple:
Prereq: Improved |Grapple, Dex15
Benefit: You take only half the normal penalties to Dexterity, attack rolls, and combat maneuver checks when she has the grappled condition. She can make an attack of opportunity against creatures trying to grapple her even if they possess the Improved Grapple feat or the grab special attack. If she hits with this attack of opportunity, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her CMD against the grapple attempt. She cannot make these attacks of opportunity once a grapple has succeeded.
Pit Fighter:
You have learned combat tricks from fighting in pit brawls and gladiatorial arenas.
Prereq: CMB+6, the Improved feat with the selected maneuver
Benefits: Select one combat maneuver. You gain a +2 insight bonus on her CMB and to your CMD against that maneuver. This bonus increases to +4 if you are wearing no armor (shields are allowed). This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time this feat is taken it applies to a different maneuver.
The Invulnerable Rager, Superstitious and Mounted Fury could be made into PrCs. I'm focusing on what can be turned on feats first so I'll come back to those later. I think Mounted Fury's idea could be expanded into a multiclass PrC for Barbarian/any class with mount or animal companion.
The abilities from Elemental Kin, Hurler and Savage Barbarian don't fit in as either feats or rage powers, and there isn't enough to make PrCs either. There's nothing can be done with Elemental Kin, but I think I can save the abilities from the other two to combine with abilities from other archetypes to make either feats or PrCs if that's okay with UR.
Umbral Reaver? Hello? Not even a single comment? Okay... Hope this has solved your problems...