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1) Making an attack with an improvised weapon, like a bottle or a shovel, imparts a -4 penalty.
2) Attacking with a weapon you're not proficient with also imparts a -4 penalty. The Core Rulebook seems to imply that the two are similar, either outright calling a nonproficient attack improvised or an improvised attack nonproficient.
3) When determining the damage dealt by a non-weapon object used to make an improvised attack, the GM is encouraged to find the closest match on the weapon table and use its damage dice and crit multiplier.
My question therefore is, do the Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything feats effectively double as Weapon Proficiency: Basically All Of Them? If a 1st level rogue with Catch Off Guard as his only feat disarms his opponent's spiked chain and tries to attack the guy with it, does the Catch Off-Guard feat effectively let him wield it with no penalties for 2d4 plus sneak attack dice?
No. Throw anything and catch off guard make you proficient with improvised weapons. Short swords are not improvised.
In direct answer to your specific question, no he cannot wield it with no penalties for 2d4 plus sneak attack dice.
An improvised weapon does not use a similar weapons crit, it gets a threat of 20 and a multiplier of x2. They also don't grant any special attributes like trip, disarm or monk. Improvised thrown weapons have a range of 10'.
Using a weapon as it's meant to be used would not grant any help from Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything since it would not be considered an improvised weapon.
There has been discussion previously on this board that using a weapon in an unusual manner such as hitting someone with the hilt instead of the blade would make it an improvised weapon but that would change it's damage, crit info and range as stated for an improvised weapon. In this manner those feats could work.
So it's a trade off of using the weapon as it's meant to be used, retaining all of it's stats and requiring proficiency or take a -4 att
or
using it as an improvised weapon with generic stats and requiring Catch Off-Guard/Throw Anything or take a -4 att.
Attacking with a weapon you're not proficient with also imparts a -4 penalty. The Core Rulebook seems to imply that the two are similar, either outright calling a nonproficient attack improvised or an improvised attack nonproficient.
All characters except those with caught off guard or throw anything are non-proficient with improvised weapons. Non-proficient attacks are not improvised; they're just non-proficient.
If a 1st level rogue with Catch Off Guard as his only feat disarms his opponent's spiked chain and tries to attack the guy with it, does the Catch Off-Guard feat effectively let him wield it with no penalties for 2d4 plus sneak attack dice?
No. He can use it as an improvised weapon.
I would never allow any weapon to be used as 'improvised weapon' without penalty. Improvised means your not using it how it supposed to be used, so it will never be effective as if you used it properly. So, no special qualities, critical is reduced to 20/x2, and damage less than normal.
Spiked Chain 2d4 20/x2 disarm, trip with -4 to hit
or
improvised weapon 1d6 20/x2 no special qualities
Rogue's choice.
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If a 1st level rogue with Catch Off Guard as his only feat disarms his opponent's spiked chain and tries to attack the guy with it, does the Catch Off-Guard feat effectively let him wield it with no penalties for 2d4 plus sneak attack dice?No. He can use it as an improvised weapon.
I would never allow any weapon to be used as 'improvised weapon' without penalty. Improvised means your not using it how it supposed to be used, so it will never be effective as if you used it properly. So, no special qualities, critical is reduced to 20/x2, and damage less than normal.
Spiked Chain 2d4 20/x2 disarm, trip with -4 to hit
or
improvised weapon 1d6 20/x2 no special qualitiesRogue's choice.
+1. exactly how i'd handle it
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If a 1st level rogue with Catch Off Guard as his only feat disarms his opponent's spiked chain and tries to attack the guy with it, does the Catch Off-Guard feat effectively let him wield it with no penalties for 2d4 plus sneak attack dice?No. He can use it as an improvised weapon.
I would never allow any weapon to be used as 'improvised weapon' without penalty. Improvised means your not using it how it supposed to be used, so it will never be effective as if you used it properly. So, no special qualities, critical is reduced to 20/x2, and damage less than normal.
Spiked Chain 2d4 20/x2 disarm, trip with -4 to hit
or
improvised weapon 1d6 20/x2 no special qualitiesRogue's choice.
Thank you, that's definitely more reasonable than Catch Off-Guard replacing all weapon proficiencies. Though I am still curious-- how did you arrive at 1d6 damage instead of 2d4? I agree that dealing less damage makes sense, but do you reduce the damage by one size category or is there another algorithm?
Also, can rogues make sneak attacks with improvised attacks? The Catch Off-Guard feat making unarmed opponents flat-footed against your improvised attacks seems to suggest there's a viable rogue build here somewhere, but sneak attacks are precision damage, and it may not be possible to do precision damage with an improvised weapon.
Thank you all very much!
Thank you, that's definitely more reasonable than Catch Off-Guard replacing all weapon proficiencies. Though I am still curious-- how did you arrive at 1d6 damage instead of 2d4? I agree that dealing less damage makes sense, but do you reduce the damage by one size category or is there another algorithm?
It was kind of hard for spiked chain as there is no obvious equivalent improvised weapon. For example smacking someone over the head with a bottle is like hitting them with a club. Then the broken shards behave more like a dagger.
The closest analog I could think of was a flail but that does 1d8 which isn't really any different than 2d4 so, I decided to reduce it one step because that seemed reasonable. There is no set rule, it's strictly GM's choice, but I think reducing damage one step is a good rule of thumb.
Also, can rogues make sneak attacks with improvised attacks? The Catch Off-Guard feat making unarmed opponents flat-footed against your improvised attacks seems to suggest there's a viable rogue build here somewhere, but sneak attacks are precision damage, and it may not be possible to do precision damage with an improvised weapon.
Under 3.5, there was some fluff wording to indicate you couldn't sneak attack if you didn't "make optimal use" of your weapon. The particular paragraph was dealing with using a normal weapon to deal non-lethal damage. There is no corresponding passage in the Pathfinder Core Rules. So, I don't see a reason there to deny a rogue sneak attack.
I can definitely see that if you disarmed a foe and then proceeded to bash him with the grip of his own weapon he might get caught flat-footed. I don't think it is quite what the developers hand it mind when the wrote the feat but it should work. The limiting factor of the opponent having to be unarmed should mitigate any potential abuse.