The wording for this feat is unusual in that the order in which skills are gained seems to be important and makes this more complicated and harder to track back later. I wonder how Foundry and other VTTs will cope with this, I know that I am struggling to code this in my Excel Character Book. However, the question arises, if the PC gets Crafting later in the character creation process, or at a later level, does the PC get the Specialty Crafting feat? It would seem to be simpler to just grant the feat and give the PC the extra skill point. It is not a particularly strong feat meta-wise and would not be game-breaking imho. Thoughts?
Here is the text: You understand the intricacies of stonework. You become trained in Crafting. If you’re already trained in Crafting, you instead gain the Specialty Crafting skill feat for stonemasonry. You also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks to notice unusual stonework. This bonus applies to checks to discover mechanical traps made of stone or hidden within stone. If you aren’t using the Seek action or searching, the GM automatically rolls a secret check for you to notice unusual stonework anyway. This check doesn’t gain your normal circumstance bonus
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If you get trained in Crafting anywhere else during character creation, you get the Specialty Crafting feat, because you can always rearrange things in chargen to put the ancestry feat last. You don't have to formally work out the order, just say "I get this feat after I get trained."
After character creation things aren't so flexible. If you took the ancestry feat at 1st level, you're now trained in Crafting (it trains you), so you can't "get trained later." If you don't take the ancestry feat until later, then if you're trained in Crafting when you take it you get Specialty Crafting, and otherwise you just become trained.
If you get trained in Crafting anywhere else during character creation, you get the Specialty Crafting feat, because you can always rearrange things in chargen to put the ancestry feat last. You don't have to formally work out the order, just say "I get this feat after I get trained."
After character creation things aren't so flexible. If you took the ancestry feat at 1st level, you're now trained in Crafting (it trains you), so you can't "get trained later." If you don't take the ancestry feat until later, then if you're trained in Crafting when you take it you get Specialty Crafting, and otherwise you just become trained.
I get this, but this means it is nigh impossible to track backwards if you want to verify having the right number of skill increases/feats. Everything up until now meant you did not need to track when you took stuff (by all means correct me if I am wrong on this). I really hope they tweak this one accordingly
Oh, I see, you're trying to have this be verified in your Excel Character Book. Or worried whether a retraining would be illegal? No, this one is a lossy process, very unusual.
Um. How's this? Break it into two feats, Stonemason's Eye Theory (which only people who are not yet trained in Crafting can take) and Stonemason's Eye Practice (which only the already-trained can take). And, err, somehow ensure you can't take both of those.... Will other people be using your spreadsheet?
Oh, I see, you're trying to have this be verified in your Excel Character Book. Or worried whether a retraining would be illegal? No, this one is a lossy process, very unusual.
Um. How's this? Break it into two feats, Stonemason's Eye Theory (which only people who are not yet trained in Crafting can take) and Stonemason's Eye Practice (which only the already-trained can take). And, err, somehow ensure you can't take both of those.... Will other people be using your spreadsheet?
I love your potential solution there - will see about implementing it! The spreadsheet is publicly available, for free, on my patreon. Needs updating somewhat (need to add Kineticist etc.) but happy to share if you would like to take a look?
I love your potential solution there - will see about implementing it! The spreadsheet is publicly available, for free, on my patreon. Needs updating somewhat (need to add Kineticist etc.) but happy to share if you would like to take a look?Oh, I see, you're trying to have this be verified in your Excel Character Book. Or worried whether a retraining would be illegal? No, this one is a lossy process, very unusual.
Um. How's this? Break it into two feats, Stonemason's Eye Theory (which only people who are not yet trained in Crafting can take) and Stonemason's Eye Practice (which only the already-trained can take). And, err, somehow ensure you can't take both of those.... Will other people be using your spreadsheet?
I'm kind of a caveman on spreadsheets. I downloaded and glanced at yours (in libreoffice on Linux) but don't know how to do most basic operations. (There have been times in my life when I could have used a spreadsheet to solve a problem, but I always, always give in to the temptation to write a custom script instead....)
Anyway, I was trying to think of anything else in PF that worked that way and there are at least a few places that do "you become trained in Foo, if you were already trained you become expert" (rather than becoming trained in a chosen other skill). Namely, the dedications for archetypes PF Agent, Dandy, Pirate, and doubtless others do that. Of course those can't be taken at character creation, but do they give you problems later?
I sort of get what you're saying, but it's almost trivially easy to simply ensure you have the Crafting skill at character creation so you qualify for the bonus feat
Consider instead the case where a character takes the feat in a higher-level ancestry slot, or through Ancestral Paragon, long after creation. Or trying to retrain Crafting; you can't if you have Specialty Crafting from Stonemason's Eye, but you can if you have it from another source.
I love your potential solution there - will see about implementing it! The spreadsheet is publicly available, for free, on my patreon. Needs updating somewhat (need to add Kineticist etc.) but happy to share if you would like to take a look?Oh, I see, you're trying to have this be verified in your Excel Character Book. Or worried whether a retraining would be illegal? No, this one is a lossy process, very unusual.
Um. How's this? Break it into two feats, Stonemason's Eye Theory (which only people who are not yet trained in Crafting can take) and Stonemason's Eye Practice (which only the already-trained can take). And, err, somehow ensure you can't take both of those.... Will other people be using your spreadsheet?
I'm kind of a caveman on spreadsheets. I downloaded and glanced at yours (in libreoffice on Linux) but don't know how to do most basic operations. (There have been times in my life when I could have used a spreadsheet to solve a problem, but I always, always give in to the temptation to write a custom script instead....)
Anyway, I was trying to think of anything else in PF that worked that way and there are at least a few places that do "you become trained in Foo, if you were already trained you become expert" (rather than becoming trained in a chosen other skill). Namely, the dedications for archetypes PF Agent, Dandy, Pirate, and doubtless others do that. Of course those can't be taken at character creation, but do they give you problems later?
I sort of get what you're saying, but it's almost trivially easy to simply ensure you have the Crafting skill at character creation so you qualify for the bonus featConsider instead the case where a character takes the feat in a higher-level ancestry slot, or through Ancestral Paragon, long after creation. Or trying to retrain Crafting; you can't if you have Specialty Crafting from Stonemason's Eye, but you can if you have it from another...
I bow to your script writing, never have got my head around coding, my son can do that for me nowadays ;-) . I have not had any issues with those dedications in the spreadsheet as once you get to that level it is a manual fix and there is a logic line to it at least that I have managed to cover off. This one is a kinda impossible without a fudge like the one you have suggested. I have avoided any code or macros in the spreadsheet to make it safer for users (and me!). I will post up on a forum post once we have got all the remaster stuff done, but suspect this will be some time, it is surprisingly heavy to change!
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I love your potential solution there - will see about implementing it! The spreadsheet is publicly available, for free, on my patreon. Needs updating somewhat (need to add Kineticist etc.) but happy to share if you would like to take a look?Oh, I see, you're trying to have this be verified in your Excel Character Book. Or worried whether a retraining would be illegal? No, this one is a lossy process, very unusual.
Um. How's this? Break it into two feats, Stonemason's Eye Theory (which only people who are not yet trained in Crafting can take) and Stonemason's Eye Practice (which only the already-trained can take). And, err, somehow ensure you can't take both of those.... Will other people be using your spreadsheet?
Thanks for the help, managed to implement a version based on your suggestion - props!
Thanks for the help, managed to implement a version based on your suggestion - props!I love your potential solution there - will see about implementing it! The spreadsheet is publicly available, for free, on my patreon. Needs updating somewhat (need to add Kineticist etc.) but happy to share if you would like to take a look?Oh, I see, you're trying to have this be verified in your Excel Character Book. Or worried whether a retraining would be illegal? No, this one is a lossy process, very unusual.
Um. How's this? Break it into two feats, Stonemason's Eye Theory (which only people who are not yet trained in Crafting can take) and Stonemason's Eye Practice (which only the already-trained can take). And, err, somehow ensure you can't take both of those.... Will other people be using your spreadsheet?
Happy to be of aid!