I'm putting together this great recurring villain for my party inspired by the idea of a Summoner, and as I began to do a little research and build the eidolon level by level, I encountered a lot of seemingly contradictory information - especially with regards to its attacks.
I wanted to keep the Eidolon current with his maximum number of attacks as much as possible, so my idea was to buy an extra set of arms (biped) which would allow him to weild a Greatsword for his odd number of attacks and then forgoing the Greatsword and buying a new set of claws for the even number of attacks - lather, rinse, repeat until 20th level when he would theoretically have 6 claw attacks and a Greatsword attack.
But then I read that maxium number of attacks only applies to natural attacks - does this mean that any attacks with a Greatsword are in addition to that maximum? And what is considered an iterative attack? The claws are primary weapons, so they should all be at the highest BAB, right? Is that the same for the Greatsword or does it become an iterative attack when used - or does the Greatsword suddenly make all claw attacks iterative? Does multi-attack have any value when you are only using claws? If I go Bite instead of Greatsword, are both it and the claws considered primary attacks? How do you know how many attacks you would get with a Greatsword as you level up - is it only one since the Eidolon table only shows a single BAB with no iterative atacks listed?
I'm so confused.
While I'm on the subject of confused, perhaps someone can clarify the 'Extra Evolution' feat for me. It states that "You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess". Does that mean that you have to be 5th level to take the feat, or that you can only take it extra times starting at 5th level? Since you only get feats at odd levels, does that mean that you can only take it at 1st (?), 5th, 11th and 15th - no opportunity for 20th unless you go above that level?
Thanks in advance for any responses - the more searches I do, the more seemingly conflicting answers I get.
But then I read that maxium number of attacks only applies to natural attacks - does this mean that any attacks with a Greatsword are in addition to that maximum? And what is considered an iterative attack?
Iterative attacks are attacks that occur more than once due to BAB (BAB +6 equal 2, and so on)
The claws are primary weapons, so they should all be at the highest BAB, right? Is that the same for the Greatsword or does it become an iterative attack when used - or does the Greatsword suddenly make all claw attacks iterative?
Nope, Natural Attacks never become Iterative, not even than.
You can combine them, but you can't with same arm.If you had 4 arms: you could go (with 6 BAB):
Claw+6/Claw+6/Great sword+6/Greatsword+1, add Str and other bonuses.
Wait, I forgot the monster rules:
Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
So it becomes Claw+1/Claw+1/Great sword+6/Greatsword+1. As Claws are considered secondaries when combined with manufactured.
Does multi-attack have any value when you are only using claws?
Nope.
If I go Bite instead of Greatsword, are both it and the claws considered primary attacks?
Only if the book says they are. And I'm pretty sure it lists bite evolution as a primary in APG.
How do you know how many attacks you would get with a Greatsword as you level up - is it only one since the Eidolon table only shows a single BAB with no iterative atacks listed?
Look at a equal level fighter.
I'm so confused.
It happens.
While I'm on the subject of confused, perhaps someone can clarify the 'Extra Evolution' feat for me. It states that "You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess". Does that mean that you have to be 5th level to take the feat, or that you can only take it extra times starting at 5th level? Since you only get feats at odd levels, does that mean that you can only take it at 1st (?), 5th, 11th and 15th - no opportunity for 20th unless you go above that level?Thanks in advance for...
Nope, it counts 1st level too and then 5th.
Yeah, you'd have to wait to 21st to take the time after 15th level.
lather, rinse, repeat until 20th level when he would theoretically have 6 claw attacks and a Greatsword attack.
First thing's first... you can't make a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack if they would use the same limb. So it's either claws or greatsword.
But then I read that maxium number of attacks only applies to natural attacks - does this mean that any attacks with a Greatsword are in addition to that maximum? And what is considered an iterative attack? The claws are primary weapons, so they should all be at the highest BAB, right? Is that the same for the Greatsword or does it become an iterative attack when used - or does the Greatsword suddenly make all claw attacks iterative? Does multi-attack have any value when you are only using claws? If I go Bite instead of Greatsword, are both it and the claws considered primary attacks? How do you know how many attacks you would get with a Greatsword as you level up - is it only one since the Eidolon table only shows a single BAB with no iterative atacks listed?
If you are just using the natural attacks, then claws would be a Primary weapon at highest BAB. The greatsword would replace the natural attacks, so instead of 2x claws, you'd get 1x greatsword at highest BAB. Max attacks only applies to natural weapons, and since the BAB progression doesn't list iterative attacks, I would guess that you'd be limited to the 1/round. (That said, the general rule is that you gain another swing for every increment of 6 that your BAB reaches...So I'm not 100% sure)
While I'm on the subject of confused, perhaps someone can clarify the 'Extra Evolution' feat for me. It states that "You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess". Does that mean that you have to be 5th level to take the feat, or that you can only take it extra times starting at 5th level? Since you only get feats at odd levels, does that mean that you can only take it at 1st (?), 5th, 11th and 15th - no opportunity for 20th unless you go above that level?
The pre-req for Extra Evolution is "Eidolon Class feature", so you can take this at 1, then again at 6, 11, 16, 21, etc.
lather, rinse, repeat until 20th level when he would theoretically have 6 claw attacks and a Greatsword attack.First thing's first... you can't make a natural attack and a manufactured weapon attack if they would use the same limb. So it's either claws or greatsword.
Unless you have 8 sets of arms...
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I'm so confused.
Read the Bestiary entry on natural attacks for information on combining natural attacks and attacks with manufactured weapons. Ignore the Core Rulebook section on natural attacks that says combining them results in weapons being subject to two weapon fighting penalties.
Basics:
1) A creature can use natural attacks and manufactured weapons together in the same full round attack action.
2) If a limb is used for a manufactured weapon attack, that limb cannot be used for a natural attack as well.
3) Iterative attacks are due to BAB and apply to manufactured weapons only.
4) Natural attacks are either primary or secondary, based upon their type. All natural attacks are treated as secondary if used in combination with any manufactured weapons. There can be specific exceptions, such as dragon's bite.
5) The number of manufactured attacks that can be made by a multi-limbed creature before incurring two weapon fighting penalties is unclear and subject to debate.
So, let's say you have a creature with six claws and a bite. By type, they are all primary attacks. Assume it's BAB is +6 and it has no other modifiers to attack for illustration purposes. In a full round sequence, it can attack with:
1) Melee 6 claws +6 (damage), bite +6 (damage); this is 7 total attacks.
or, it could use two claws to attack with a greatsword, making all of the natural attacks secondary:
2) Melee greatsword +6/+1 (damage), 4 claws +1 (damage), bite +1 (damage); this is 7 total attacks. two of the claws are now used for the greatsword, which is allowed iterative attacks as a manufactured weapon due to BAB.
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Maximum Eidolon Attacks:
1st-3rd Level: 3 Natural, 1 Weapon
4th-6th Level: 4 Natural, 1 Weapon
7th-8th Level: 4 Natural, 2 Weapon (Starting at BAB +6/+1)
9th-13th Level: 5 Natural, 2 Weapon
14th-18th Level: 6 Natural, 3 Weapon (Starting at BAB +11/+6/+1)
19th-20th Level: 7 Natural, 3 Weapon
So you're taking -5 on all natural attacks, using up two arms, and spending 4 evolution points on Weapon Training, and spending money on enchanting, in order to get 1-3 attacks with the greatsword.
If you don't mind having four arms, you can have Bite and 6 Claws all at full BAB for 5 evolution points. You can easily increase the claw damage dice, give them reach, make everything have energy damage, etc.
So it seems that by choosing Greatsword over Bite, I'm dooming all of my claw attacks to iterative status (-5 base attack) - or does multi-attack kick in then and make the claw attacks at -2 base attack?
If I skip the claws and instead arm every hand with a manufactured weapon, is every weapon other than the first considered 'off-hand', or does it work out in pairs (1 set of main hand and off hand per pair of arms)? Do those armed arms (;-P) gain the benefit of iterative attacks with TWF and ITWF - for instance:
4 pairs of arms, each with a dagger, TWF, ITWF and GTWF, BAB +11:
[dagger main-hand +9/dagger off-hand +9/dagger main-hand +4/dagger off-hand +4/ dagger main-hand -1/dagger off-hand -1] x 4 sets of arms?
If that's how it works, it seems a little crazy.
I'd probably never use that option if indeed that's how it would work - I'm trying to more or less optimize the character, but not at the cost of its concept and a dozen flailing arms with daggers hardly fits the bill. I just want to understand how it works... it sounds like I'd be better off just going claws and bite for the odd attack.
Can I use combat feats that apply to weapons with natural attacks - like Weapon Focus: Claws or Improved Critical: Bite, assuming I otherwise qualify for the feat in question?
So it seems that by choosing Greatsword over Bite, I'm dooming all of my claw attacks to iterative status (-5 base attack)
Not iterative, secondary.
Iterative means multiple attacks from high BAB. Your greatsword makes iterative attacks.
If you attack with a weapon ALL natural attacks become secondary, attacking at -5 and dealing half strength damage.
or does multi-attack kick in then and make the claw attacks at -2 base attack?
If you have three or more, yes, Multiattack will lessen your attack penalty on those secondary attacks. Still half strength, though.
If I skip the claws and instead arm every hand with a manufactured weapon, is every weapon other than the first considered 'off-hand', or does it work out in pairs (1 set of main hand and off hand per pair of arms)? Do those armed arms (;-P) gain the benefit of iterative attacks with TWF and ITWF
Giant Mongolian Clusterduck.
I want to thank everyone so much for their lengthy replies. Definitely made things clearer and saved a headache or three.
If anyone feels like critiquing the build, I'm going to list it below. The concept is a sort of wolf-like demon with oversized arms and claws, no hair, hard blue skin with glowing golden eyes and glowing golden runes etched everywhere. I think I'm going to houserule that he's so quick he makes multiple attacks with the same claws (he'll still have to pay for them, they just don't manifest as extra arms and hands). He's both the servant and consort to a rather twisted half-elven woman who leads my party's nemesis group - that group consists of the Summoner, and Elven Rogue/Duelist, a Dwarven Cleric and a pair of twin human fighters (a male with a Great Axe and a female who uses paired hand-axes).
The character will be a half-elf taking advantage of the racial Favored Class option and will be taking the Extra Evolution feats as early as possible. Here's the eidolon's evolutions and the feats I'm planning below:
Eidolon (Wolf-demon)
1st level: (4)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
2nd level: (5)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
3rd level: (6)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
4th level: (9) (1 point left over)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (1), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
5th level: (11)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Natural Armor (2), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
6th level: (12)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Natural Armor (1), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
7th level: (13)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Natural Armor (2), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
8th level: (15)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Natural Armor (2), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
9th level: (17)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (2), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
10th level: (18)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (3), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
11th level: (20)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (2), Damage Reduction: 5/Good (3), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
12th level: (22)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (2), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
13th level: (23)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Improved Natural Armor (3), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
14th level: (25)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (3), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
15th level: (27)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (4), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
16th level: (29)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (3), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Spell Resistance (4), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
17th level: (30)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (4), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Spell Resistance (4), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
18th level: (31)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Reach, Claws (1), Improved Natural Armor (4), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Spell Resistance (4), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
19th level: (33)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Poison, Bite (2), Improved Natural Armor (4), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Spell Resistance (4), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
20th level: (35)
Limbs, arms (F), Claws (F), Limbs, legs (F), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Limbs, arms (2), Claws (1), Rend (2), Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2), Improved Damage, Claws (1), Bite (1), Poison, Bite (2), Improved Natural Armor (4), Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5), Spell Resistance (4), Large (4), Scent (1), Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1), Flight (2)
Feats:
1st – Weapon Focus: Claws
3rd – Combat Reflexes
6th – Standstill
9th – Power Attack
11th – Improved Critical: Claws
14th – Lightning Reflexes
17th – Iron Will
19th – Great Fortitude
So it seems that by choosing Greatsword over Bite, I'm dooming all of my claw attacks to iterative status (-5 base attack) - or does multi-attack kick in then and make the claw attacks at -2 base attack?
If I skip the claws and instead arm every hand with a manufactured weapon, is every weapon other than the first considered 'off-hand', or does it work out in pairs (1 set of main hand and off hand per pair of arms)? Do those armed arms (;-P) gain the benefit of iterative attacks with TWF and ITWF - for instance:
4 pairs of arms, each with a dagger, TWF, ITWF and GTWF, BAB +11:
[dagger main-hand +9/dagger off-hand +9/dagger main-hand +4/dagger off-hand +4/ dagger main-hand -1/dagger off-hand -1] x 4 sets of arms?
If that's how it works, it seems a little crazy.
I know this is a topic which has been discussed before, so I may be wrong.
If you look in the bestiary under the feat "Multi-weapon Fighting", it implies that with multiple arms using manufactured weapons, only one is considered primary, and the rest are considered secondary. Multi-weapon fighting replaces Two-Weapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms wielding weapons, according to the bestiary.
So it would be more like BAB + 11 with MWF
Dagger main hand +9/off hand +9/off hand +9/off hand +9/off hand +9/off hand +9/off hand +9/off hand +9/main hand +4/main hand -1
There isn't improved or greater multiweapon fighting, as far as I can tell, so I think that's as much as you could get.
This is an excellent explanation and makes much more sense on that topic. Thanks.
Does the Summoner's Summon Monster spell-like ability benefit from Augmented Summoning and Superior Summoning?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yes & No for the Augment Summoning Feat. I would go with "Yes" because I like summoners and JJ's answer mentions Monsters, not Summoners (Spell Like abilities are fun for the ref)
Edit - found Superior Summoning. If Augemnt Summoning works then Superior will as well.
And as I understand it, the Summoning Spell-Like ability can't be used while your Eidolon is present, but nothing keeps you from casting actual Summon Monster spells correct?
And as I understand it, the Summoning Spell-Like ability can't be used while your Eidolon is present, but nothing keeps you from casting actual Summon Monster spells correct?
Correct. Remember that the actual spells do not get the faster casting time, nor the extended duration that the Sp grants.
Until it hits the FAQ it depends on which Dev you want to go with
Yes it does work for Jason Bulmahn
No it does not work for James Jacobs
Until it hits the FAQ it depends on which Dev you want to go with
Yes it does work for Jason Bulmahn
No it does not work for James Jacobs
James's responses (as he has said multiple times) are strictly his answer to what he would do in his own game. He's also stated that final rules decisions are Jason Buhlman and Sean K Reynolds.
So, I'd go with JB's response.
Okay, here's one:
According to the rules as written, the feat Superior Summoning has Augment Summoning as a pre-requisite. Summoners get Augment Summoning for free at 2nd level without having to meet any of its pre-requisites (specifically Spell Focus: Conjuration).
So I take it to mean that I can take the Superior Summoning feat as early as 3rd level without ever having to take Spell Focus: Conjuration.
I have heard it argued that its 'assumed' that Spell Focus: Conjuration would have had to be taken to get Augment Summoning, but the fact that other feats such as Whirlwind Attack specifically list multiple pre-requisite feats up the tree by name would suggest otherwise.
Okay, here's one:
According to the rules as written, the feat Superior Summoning has Augment Summoning as a pre-requisite. Summoners get Augment Summoning for free at 2nd level without having to meet any of its pre-requisites (specifically Spell Focus: Conjuration).
So I take it to mean that I can take the Superior Summoning feat as early as 3rd level without ever having to take Spell Focus: Conjuration.
You have to meet the prerequisites for a feat, not the prereqs of the prereqs of the prereqs. If you somehow get Augment Summoning without meeting the prereqs, you have met all the prereqs for that feat (namely, none for you), so yes, you qualify for Superior Summoning, unless it ALSO has a prereq of something else you don't have (which there are a few feats like that).
You guys have been a tremendous help. I find that I'm enjoying exploring this class more than any other to date, but it is a challenege to nail down some of its nuances.
I'll understand if no one feels like it, but I'm trying to check my numbers here. I've built the eidolon (not exactly like the one shown above, there have been some tweaks based on what I've learned), and I'm looking at his final statistics for level 20.
I built him with 35 evolution pool points (26 from Summoner, 5 from Half-Elf favored class option, 4 from Extra Evolution feats).
These are his evolutions (Biped form):
Large (4)
Limbs, arms (Free)
Claws (Free)
Limbs, legs (Free)
Limbs, arms (2)
Claws (1)
Limbs, arms (2)
Claws (1)
Rend (2)
Acid Attacks (+1d6 acid damage with natural attacks) (2)
Improved Damage, Claws (1)
Magic Weapons (1)
Bite (1)
Poison, Bite (2)
Improved Natural Armor (5)
Damage Reduction: 10/Good (5)
Spell Resistance (4)
Scent (1)
Skilled – Survival/Tracking (1)
His Ability Score increases were +1 Con at 5th, +1 Str at 10th and +1 Dex at 15th.
His feats:
1st – Weapon Focus: Claws
3rd – Combat Reflexes
6th – Standstill
9th – Toughness
11th – Improved Critical: Claws
14th – Lightning Reflexes
17th – Iron Will
19th – Great Fortitude
Also Devotion, Evasion and Improved Evasion
That leaves him with the following statistics...
Armor Class: 42
10(Base) + 2(Biped) +16(Armor Bonus) +10(Improved Armor x5) +4 (Dex bonus)
Hit Dice/Hit Points: 20d10+100
+1/level (Toughness) +4/level (Con Bonus)
Fortitude +15
+9(Good Save) +4(Con Bonus) +2(Great Fortitude)
Reflexes +11
+5(Bad save) +4(Dex Bonus) +2(Lightning Reflexes)
Will +11
+9(Good Save) +2(Iron Will)
Spell Resistance: 31
Damage Resistance: 10/Good
Attacks (Magic, Reach 10'): Claw +27/Claw +27/Claw +27/Claw +27/Claw +27/Claw +27/Bite +26
Damage: Claws (1d8+1d6+11), Bite (1d8+1d6+11+Poison, DC:24)
Now that is without any equipment such as magical rings or cloaks, and without any buffs such as Mage Armor, Heroism or Bull's Strength - one or both he will usually have. That just seems awfully powerful to me... especially when you consider that, at that level, the caster can 'Twin' it.
You have to meet the prerequisites for a feat, not the prereqs of the prereqs of the prereqs. If you somehow get Augment Summoning without meeting the prereqs, you have met all the prereqs for that feat (namely, none for you), so yes, you qualify for Superior Summoning, unless it ALSO has a prereq of something else you don't have (which there are a few feats like that).Okay, here's one:
According to the rules as written, the feat Superior Summoning has Augment Summoning as a pre-requisite. Summoners get Augment Summoning for free at 2nd level without having to meet any of its pre-requisites (specifically Spell Focus: Conjuration).
So I take it to mean that I can take the Superior Summoning feat as early as 3rd level without ever having to take Spell Focus: Conjuration.
Thanks for the response - I was actually looking at the Master Summoner when I read that so it looks like the Spell Focus tree for me.
If I select the reach evolution, it says 'select it for one attack, that attack gains additional reach of 5'... so if I were to purchase it and get it from my Claw attack, would it be for just one of my claw attacks, or all of them?
Thanks for the response - I was actually looking at the Master Summoner when I read that so it looks like the Spell Focus tree for me.
If I select the reach evolution, it says 'select it for one attack, that attack gains additional reach of 5'... so if I were to purchase it and get it from my Claw attack, would it be for just one of my claw attacks, or all of them?
No problem.
To answer the reach question...
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
As you see, the Improved Damage evolution says it explicitly affects one attack form, despite the sentence before it that says 'one attack'. Reach doesn't have that. So Reach is per actual attack, so if you wanted two arms to have reach, you'd have to buy reach twice. However, as a GM, I'd say if you had reach on two limbs with claws, that using weapons with those limbs would also be reach attacks, but that's RAI. The Eidelon needs an entire FAQ all on its own, and still needs to be rebalanced to avoid glass cannon.
Thanks for the response - I was actually looking at the Master Summoner when I read that so it looks like the Spell Focus tree for me.
If I select the reach evolution, it says 'select it for one attack, that attack gains additional reach of 5'... so if I were to purchase it and get it from my Claw attack, would it be for just one of my claw attacks, or all of them?
No problem.
To answer the reach question...
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.As you see, the Improved Damage evolution says it explicitly affects one attack form, despite the sentence before it that says 'one attack'. Reach doesn't have that. So Reach is per actual attack, so if you wanted two arms to have reach, you'd have to buy reach twice. However, as a GM, I'd say if you had reach on two limbs with claws, that using weapons with those limbs would also be reach attacks, but that's RAI. The Eidelon needs an entire FAQ all on its own, and still needs to be rebalanced to avoid glass cannon.
I'm not really worried about the 'glass cannon' effect. For one, I think the ability to take Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, have a solid armor class and still benefit from both buffs like Mage Armor and Herosim as well as the occaisional Cloak or Ring of Protection makes the eidolon as formidible as he needs to be... and secondly, he's not the only arrow in a Summoner's quiver, so to speak. With Superior Summoninge, should my Eidolon die or be Dismissed, I can whip up 2-4 (Augmented) Elder Elementals in its place for example.
Also let's not forget that at any level the Summoner is rarely if ever playing solo. There should be other melee types for foes to concern themselves with apart from the eidolon, and all are benefitting from mass buffs like Hasten or Bull's Strength. I'd hardly consider the Summoner a one trick pony, and too much emphasis is placed, I think, on how 'uber' the eidolon can be made and not enough on the classes versatility or potential role in a group.
The Summoner and Eidolon both have plenty of potential weaknesses that can be exploited from time to time without a GM having to specifically design encounters to do so, and I for one think that the eidolon's relatively low attack bonuses make up for its many attacks. I also think that most potential problems can be headed off early on with a few mututally understood house rules.
I've seen the Summoner described as overpowered, both against melee types and in comparison to other casters, but melee types at high levels can potentially stun a foe with every attack, and I've a very enjoyable Air Elemental Specialist Wizard who makes use of Dazing, Persistent Ball Lightning spells that benefit from double Greater Elemental Focus and double Greater Spell Focus save penalties (Spell Perfection) who would argue otherwise. Talk about a challenge for the DM...
Any class can be 'broken' by extremists, but I don't think the game should be made for extremists - it should be made for the casual player who enjoys his concept more than his kill total.
/End of rant.
Again, I appreciate the time you - and others - have taken to clarify my misunderstandings with this class. I'm going to have a lot of fun with this character from level 1-20.
Here's an interesting question - how would a Ring of Blinking work (or how would you personally rule it) if worn by the Eidolon? Its always been a favored item for my melee-types, but it seems that flickering it back and forth between this plane and another would have a slightly more inhibiting effect on the Summoner bond than, say, wearing armor.
Also, I can't seem to find the bit in the rules that refer to how Summoners and Eidolons share magic item slots. I've poured through the character class again and again but it just doesn't seem to be there (maybe I'm going blind) - could you/someone quote it or link it if you have it handy?
Here's an interesting question - how would a Ring of Blinking work (or how would you personally rule it) if worn by the Eidolon? Its always been a favored item for my melee-types, but it seems that flickering it back and forth between this plane and another would have a slightly more inhibiting effect on the Summoner bond than, say, wearing armor.
Also, I can't seem to find the bit in the rules that refer to how Summoners and Eidolons share magic item slots. I've poured through the character class again and again but it just doesn't seem to be there (maybe I'm going blind) - could you/someone quote it or link it if you have it handy?
Since they'd be farther apart than their limit, he'd go poof instantly, would be my ruling, since he'd be on a different plane.
As to the slots (which is one of the blechy things I was complaining about earlier, they nerfed it for pet slots, nerfed it's hd progression, and still allowed the glass cannon effect, which kind of boggles the mind, since they can have unlimited weapon attacks, just buy them a dozen arms and they can make a dozen attacks).
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
Here's an interesting question - how would a Ring of Blinking work (or how would you personally rule it) if worn by the Eidolon? Its always been a favored item for my melee-types, but it seems that flickering it back and forth between this plane and another would have a slightly more inhibiting effect on the Summoner bond than, say, wearing armor.
Also, I can't seem to find the bit in the rules that refer to how Summoners and Eidolons share magic item slots. I've poured through the character class again and again but it just doesn't seem to be there (maybe I'm going blind) - could you/someone quote it or link it if you have it handy?
Since they'd be farther apart than their limit, he'd go poof instantly, would be my ruling, since he'd be on a different plane.
As to the slots (which is one of the blechy things I was complaining about earlier, they nerfed it for pet slots, nerfed it's hd progression, and still allowed the glass cannon effect, which kind of boggles the mind, since they can have unlimited weapon attacks, just buy them a dozen arms and they can make a dozen attacks).
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner's connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
What ypou quoted is official, then? I had seen something somewhere about Summoners and their eidolons sharing the effects of the items the Summoner wore (i.e. on ring of protection affecting them both) and the eidolon wearing none. Its a tricky thing since giving your eidolon an item means that no one is benefitting from it when it's not around.
Personally, I'd houserule that the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks were its natural number of attacks period - or require that Weapon Training be purchased for each set of arms rather than across then having the evolution work across the board. That would be an elegant solution to the problem, I think. I'm not overly fond of the idea that every eidolon inevitably defaults to a ball of sword waving arms because its too uber not to.
What ypou quoted is official, then?
You can go look it up on the official Paizo PRD if you like.
Personally, I'd houserule that the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks were its natural number of attacks period - or require that Weapon Training be purchased for each set of arms rather than across then having the evolution work across the board. That would be an elegant solution to the problem, I think. I'm not overly fond of the idea that every eidolon inevitably defaults to a ball of sword waving arms because its too uber not to.
My fix to the eidelon was :
- Eidelon stays around until dismissed, or knocked to -hp.
- Eidelon either can't wear armor, or it's given armor bonuses as it levels are halved, as are armor bonuses from evolutions.
- Eidelon can't have more attacks (combined weapon and natural) than it's attack limit per it's table.
- Eidelon and Summoner do not share slots, but items on the eidelon drop to the ground when it goes 'poof'.
That get's rid of most of the 'glass cannon' effect by limiting it's attacks (which is how it should have been fixed in the first place). The 3/4 bab/hd it has balances it out at higher levels, and wealth by level takes care of the equipment issue (especially if it all drops to the ground if he goes poof, since that gives the bad guy grunts the option of grabbing an item and running off if they are losing).
Remember that the Summoner has more tools in his kit than his Eidolon and SM spells. He's got planar binding and some battlefield spells and most likely other minions if he's a Big Bad. Look at the complete package for your tricks.
Heck, even without the eidolon, the idea of Summoning such powerful monsters in round one, buffing the party in round two and three and then laying about with a wand of lightning bolts or something similar for the rest of the battle is pretty darned potent if you ask me.
Think about it. At level 16 a Summoner with a 22 Charisma effectively gains access to nine 9th level spells (Summon Monster IX) with reduced casting times and much longer durations, the only limitation being that he can only have one in use at a time. In addition to the other spells they already have, that's not nothing.
What ypou quoted is official, then?You can go look it up on the official Paizo PRD if you like.
Does Rend only work once per round?