TLDR 1 level of fighter is no better than 1 level of ex-paladin
I was playing around with an idea for a multiclassed fighter/rogue. I was trying to figure out ways to improve my will save. I was looking at taking iron will when I noticed that paladins have will saves as a strong save. I wanted to be a chaotic good poison using backstabber, so paladin was out of the question, but I could be an ex-paladin. So I sat down and compared taking 1 level of fighter to taking a level of ex-paladin. The results were interesting.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see atonement), as appropriate.
So basically, you keep your BAB, saves, weapon profiencies, and skills.
BAB +1 and +2 fort for both classes
Weapon profiencies Ex-paladins cannot use tower shields. Very slight advantage to the fighter.
The fighter gets a bonus combat feat, while the ex-paladin gets +2 will saves(which is the same as taking Iron Will). Slight advantage to the fighter due to flexibility, but the ex-paladin can still take Iron Will for a total of a +4 to will saves. If you are really hurting for will saves, the ex-paladin seems to be the way to go.
Skills
Both get 2+int and have Craft, Handle Animal, Profession, Ride
Ex-Paladin gets Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge (religion), Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.
Fighter gets Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Profession, Survival, and Swim.
In my experience, I find Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft to be more useful than Climb, Swim, and Survival. I would give the skill advantage to the ex-paladin.
So, all in all it looks like a wash. For a 1 level dip, I get everything I would want from ex-paladin, and I can still take Iron will later for another +2 to my will saves. I am hard pressed to find a reason why I would take a 1 level dip in fighter over a 1 level dip in ex-paladin.
You're discounting, IMHO, the immense flexibility of the bonus feat (as it can advance you towards further feat progression), as well as the progression towards fighter only content like weapon specialization.
That said, I see no reason all classes should be equal for dipping. Dipping is not really a core, fully supported idea, is it?
Bonus feat if you really need it, but aside from that, no real reason... but I'd make you RP it... give me a reason and expect a plot hook to nab you by the mouth.
Slight advantage to the fighter due to flexibility, but the ex-paladin can still take Iron Will for a total of a +4 to will saves.
The fighter could also take Iron Will so that would be a wash.
But really if you want to boost saves, take a level of Monk. After all you get +2 across the board, and can barfight a lot better than most other fighters.
Not to mention BETTER skill points, even better class skills and another bonus feat. Yeah you lose a +1 BAB but frankly I have never seen a combat focused character that could not survive without the loss of 1 BAB.
And you could easily state that your folks sent you to the monestary since you were such an unruly child but you could not take the strict discipline and asthetic lifestyle (though you sure did like the fighting) and you left and became a warrior.
Slight advantage to the fighter due to flexibility, but the ex-paladin can still take Iron Will for a total of a +4 to will saves.The fighter could also take Iron Will so that would be a wash.
But really if you want to boost saves, take a level of Monk. After all you get +2 across the board, and can barfight a lot better than most other fighters.
Not to mention BETTER skill points, even better class skills and another bonus feat. Yeah you lose a +1 BAB but frankly I have never seen a combat focused character that could not survive without the loss of 1 BAB.
And you could easily state that your folks sent you to the monestary since you were such an unruly child but you could not take the strict discipline and asthetic lifestyle (though you sure did like the fighting) and you left and became a warrior.
That is what I am saying, the fighter could burn their bonus feat on Iron Will, and the Paladin and Fighter would come up the same. But if the ex-paladin spends one of their other feats on Iron Will, they get a +4 total. The Fighter doesn't have the option to buy Iron will twice for a +4.
My actual character is a rogue/alchemist(vivisectionist) I am shooting for just enough rogue to get evasion, uncanny dodge, and a couple of rogue talents, but most of my levels are going to be alchemist for the ability to make buffing extracts for myself. My fort and reflex saves are really really good, it is just my will save that is lacking. So I need a class that gives me a boost to will saves, and profiency with scimitars so I can use dervish dance. I am trying to not sacrifice a point of BAB to do that.
Finally, we are starting at level 3, so it is really easy for me to work a level of ex-paladin into my background story.
Most of my point is about how lackluster a single level dip into fighter is. If I wasn't a finesse based character, I would take barbarian over fighter in a heart beat, and now I am seeing that ex-paladin is pretty close to on par with a level of fighter. An actual level of paladin would blow it away.
Slight advantage to the fighter due to flexibility, but the ex-paladin can still take Iron Will for a total of a +4 to will saves.The fighter could also take Iron Will so that would be a wash.
But really if you want to boost saves, take a level of Monk. After all you get +2 across the board, and can barfight a lot better than most other fighters.
Not to mention BETTER skill points, even better class skills and another bonus feat. Yeah you lose a +1 BAB but frankly I have never seen a combat focused character that could not survive without the loss of 1 BAB.
And you could easily state that your folks sent you to the monestary since you were such an unruly child but you could not take the strict discipline and asthetic lifestyle (though you sure did like the fighting) and you left and became a warrior.
That is what I am saying, the fighter could burn their bonus feat on Iron Will, and the Paladin and Fighter would come up the same. But if the ex-paladin spends one of their other feats on Iron Will, they get a +4 total. The Fighter doesn't have the option to buy Iron will twice for a +4.
I am trying to keep my BAB up, and a one level dip in monk costs you a point of BAB. My reflex and fort saves are already really good, it is just my will save that is lacking.
If you dead set on spending the fighter's bonus feat on iron will, then it is a wash (with the option of getting iron will later for the ex-paladin). However, in a build not concerned about will saves, that is, iron will won't be taken at 1st level, then the fighter is superior.
So for your specific build and situation, the ex-paladin seems to be the better choice. I think it could also fit your role playing since you want to be a poison using swashbuckler: he could have started life out as a paladin but after some event, he became jaded and turned his back on that life, embracing the outlaw way. A fallen hero, maybe with a chance of redemption?
That is what I am saying, the fighter could burn their bonus feat on Iron Will, and the Paladin and Fighter would come up the same. But if the ex-paladin spends one of their other feats on Iron Will, they get a +4 total. The Fighter doesn't have the option to buy Iron will twice for a +4.
I am trying to keep my BAB up, and a one level dip in monk costs you a point of BAB. My reflex and fort saves are already really good, it is just my will save that is lacking.
Monk isn't bad choice as you technically can keep your +1 BAB by using monk weapons and flurry of blows. Not as good as a +1 BAB for sure but flurry gives you two attacks with full Str bonus. Monk also gives you combat reflexes as bonus feat, always useful for a rogue. You get more skills as well. It's not actually a bad option. Was starting an argument against but end up convincing myself that it's not actually that bad.
If you dead set on spending the fighter's bonus feat on iron will, then it is a wash (with the option of getting iron will later for the ex-paladin). However, in a build not concerned about will saves, that is, iron will won't be taken at 1st level, then the fighter is superior.
So for your specific build and situation, the ex-paladin seems to be the better choice. I think it could also fit your role playing since you want to be a poison using swashbuckler: he could have started life out as a paladin but after some event, he became jaded and turned his back on that life, embracing the outlaw way. A fallen hero, maybe with a chance of redemption?
1 level of fighter doesn't qualify you for Weapon Specialization. The only feats you can get at low level that increases your damage are weapon focus, weapon finesse(if dex is higher than strength), and power attack. A human will have all of those by level 3. Most melee types have weak will saves and will eventually get iron will at some point.
What else would you spend the bonus feat on that will actually make a difference in damage dealt? Dodge for a +1 AC?
There are a lot of feat chains that anyone could use extra progress towards.
Certain options, like the Maneuver feats which otherwise might be a pain to get to due to prereqs (I'm looking at you, combat expertise) are much less painful when you've got an extra feat to throw toward them.
Monk isn't bad choice as you technically can keep your +1 BAB by using monk weapons and flurry of blows. Not as good as a +1 BAB for sure but flurry gives you two attacks with full Str bonus. Monk also gives you combat reflexes as bonus feat, always useful for a rogue. You get more skills as well. It's not actually a bad option. Was starting an argument against but end up convincing myself that it's not actually that bad.That is what I am saying, the fighter could burn their bonus feat on Iron Will, and the Paladin and Fighter would come up the same. But if the ex-paladin spends one of their other feats on Iron Will, they get a +4 total. The Fighter doesn't have the option to buy Iron will twice for a +4.
I am trying to keep my BAB up, and a one level dip in monk costs you a point of BAB. My reflex and fort saves are already really good, it is just my will save that is lacking.
Monk is a no go because scimitar isn't a monk weapon, and Dervish Dance only works with scimitar. Ex-paladin gives you all martial weapons, and that makes a difference. I am having to play some games to be able to cover some extra bases since our party will only be running with 3 people.
There are a lot of feat chains that anyone could use extra progress towards.
Certain options, like the Maneuver feats which otherwise might be a pain to get to due to prereqs (I'm looking at you, combat expertise) are much less painful when you've got an extra feat to throw toward them.
Either way, you are looking at defensive feats. Even as a pure fighter, you should probably pick up Iron Will and Dodge before you get Combat Expertise.
At level 10, a wizard using a level 5 spell with a 22 int has a DC of 21 without any feats. The average DC of a will save at level 10 will be 18-25.
At level 10...
Rogue 9/Fighter 1 -> +3 base will save
Rogue 9/ex-paladin 1 -> +5 base will save
Look at the DPR olympics. Every fighter build in there ends up getting Iron Will by level 10 just to have a +8 will save. Even if you spend your fighter bonus feat on something else, you will eventually want to get Iron Will somewhere else down the road. The level in fighter may let you get some other feat a little sooner, but in the long run, it is a wash.
Monk is a no go because scimitar isn't a monk weapon, and Dervish Dance only works with scimitar. Ex-paladin gives you all martial weapons, and that makes a difference. I am having to play some games to be able to cover some extra bases since our party will only be running with 3 people.
Ah I see the mistake I made. I for some reason thought you were definately taking a level of fighter and were playing with a level of Ex Paladin or rogue. My bad.
Although I did totally forget you can flurry with Monk weapons when I made the suggestion, too
Can you use any 3.5 Materials or it is Pathfinder only?
Dipping into ex-Paladin?
"Hey guys I want to join your order I vow to uphold the principles of law and good and all that and I really feel I would benefit from the training oh hey level up thanks by the way I'm a sociopath and I'm going to kill you all stabstabstabstab"
That is one way to view it. Another is:
"James knew he wanted to be a paladin most of his life. He joined the order of light the moment he could afford the training fee's. He graduated with his class and went on his first crusade within a week of gaining his shield. What happened to him in those months shook his faith forever. The bloodshed, the cries for help to his god that went unanswered as his fellows fell around him.
He lost his faith. And while his heart never turned to the darkness he could never again find that light that had once been there inside him. He turned from the path of the Paladin and set off to find a new purpose."
Some Paladins jus don't make the grade. Like not all candidates become Seal Team members. They are good at what they do but some just aren't good enough. But they don't become raving murderer's because of it either.
Rememeber there are EX Paladins and then there are ANTI Paladins. Some of the first are the second but not all.
Dipping into ex-Paladin?
"Hey guys I want to join your order I vow to uphold the principles of law and good and all that and I really feel I would benefit from the training oh hey level up thanks by the way I'm a sociopath and I'm going to kill you all stabstabstabstab"
That is one way to view it. Another is:
"James knew he wanted to be a paladin most of his life. He joined the order of light the moment he could afford the training fee's. He graduated with his class and went on his first crusade within a week of gaining his shield. What happened to him in those months shook his faith forever. The bloodshed, the cries for help to his god that went unanswered as his fellows fell around him.
He lost his faith. And while his heart never turned to the darkness he could never again find that light that had once been there inside him. He turned from the path of the Paladin and set off to find a new purpose."
Some Paladins jus don't make the grade. Like not all candidates become Seal Team members. They are good at what they do but some just aren't good enough. But they don't become raving murderer's because of it either.
Rememeber there are EX Paladins and then there are ANTI Paladins. Some of the first are the second but not all.
Or maybe I was a fine upstanding paladin until one of my family members was murdered and in my quest for justice I crossed the line into revenge. My character's background story already has a point where I murder someone in cold blood to avenge a family member.
In 3.5, there was a good reason to take rogue at level 1 for lots and lots of skill points, but in PF, most Fighter/Rogue combos will want to take fighter at level 1 for the extra hp. It would be easy to just start as a level 1 paladin, then just play it without reguard for you paladin status. I would probably spend the first session pushing all the limits to see how long it takes before the DM revokes my paladin abilities.
TLDR 1 level of fighter is no better than 1 level of ex-paladinSide question ... what is TLDR?
Too Long Didn't Read -> a quick summary for anyone who doesn't want to read a wall of text.
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TLDR 1 level of fighter is no better than 1 level of ex-paladinSide question ... what is TLDR?
It stands for "too long; didn't read" - when used in such a context it implies "if you didn't read the rest of this long post, here's what to take from it". :)
Dipping into ex-Paladin?
"Hey guys I want to join your order I vow to uphold the principles of law and good and all that and I really feel I would benefit from the training oh hey level up thanks by the way I'm a sociopath and I'm going to kill you all stabstabstabstab"
That is one way to view it. Another is:
"James knew he wanted to be a paladin most of his life. He joined the order of light the moment he could afford the training fee's. He graduated with his class and went on his first crusade within a week of gaining his shield. What happened to him in those months shook his faith forever. The bloodshed, the cries for help to his god that went unanswered as his fellows fell around him.
He lost his faith. And while his heart never turned to the darkness he could never again find that light that had once been there inside him. He turned from the path of the Paladin and set off to find a new purpose."
Some Paladins jus don't make the grade. Like not all candidates become Seal Team members. They are good at what they do but some just aren't good enough. But they don't become raving murderer's because of it either.
Rememeber there are EX Paladins and then there are ANTI Paladins. Some of the first are the second but not all.
But that's not as hilarious! :P
Monk is a no go because scimitar isn't a monk weapon, and Dervish Dance only works with scimitar. Ex-paladin gives you all martial weapons, and that makes a difference. I am having to play some games to be able to cover some extra bases since our party will only be running with 3 people.
Good point, no go with the Scimitar. But I thought I saw some archetype or feat for the Monk where the Scimitar was a monk weapon for them. Can't find it now though. Must have been something I was thinking about for Arabian Knights style game I was running a while ago. Could have sworn I saw it in book though.
Or maybe I was a fine upstanding paladin until one of my family members was murdered and in my quest for justice I crossed the line into revenge. My character's background story already has a point where I murder someone in cold blood to avenge a family member.
Or that. :) Not necessarily a serial murderer but definately 'BAD PALADIN! ... BAD! *Smacks your hand*'
But I thought I saw some archetype or feat for the Monk where the Scimitar was a monk weapon for them.
Eberron.
For Nekyia:
"James knew he wanted to be a paladin most of his life. He joined the order of light the moment he could afford the training fee's. He graduated with his class and went on his first crusade within a week of gaining his shield. What happened to him in those months shook him forever.
The rest of the order just could not understand it but he knew. They called it a horse but it was more than that to him. It was his steed. His animal compamnion. His *special* mount.
They took his shield from him, which he could take. If they would not recognise his special bond then the hell with them.
But they took his horse too and gave it to a female Paladin. AND IT WENT!
He was crushed. He knew he would never believe their lies ever again."
Better?
The part that really bothers me is that a level 1 or 2 paladin without all of their spells and abilities actually comes close to a fighter of the same level. Fighters are really kinda gimp until around level 3 or 4 compared to paladins, rangers, and barbarians. It just feels completely wrong that EX-paladin is even a viable option in this situation.
Bear in mind that with a level in Ex-Paladin, any GM worth his salt is going to try to trick you into atoning at some point. You'll have to be constantly on your guard for devious morality traps. :P
Oh hardly, I'm a much more devious DM. I'd lure the PC to the darkside, Anti-Paladin! The player by going Chaotic Good is halfway there. As Charender put it, his first level would pushing the boundaries, wouldn't take much to slide down that slippery slope to Anti-Paladinhood.
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Oh hardly, I'm a much more devious DM. I'd lure the PC to the darkside, Anti-Paladin! The player by going Chaotic Good is halfway there. As Charender put it, his first level would pushing the boundaries, wouldn't take much to slide down that slippery slope to Anti-Paladinhood.
But that's not nearly as humorous.
"Congratulations! You've saved the town and rescued the orphanage of Iomadae!"
*Divine Light Shines*
"Aw crap! I'm a Paladin again!!!"
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can't speak for how anyone else would rule it, but I wouldn't let someone pick up a "level of ex-paladin". My interpretation of the rules (and most certainly the intent of the rules) is that you can only become an ex-paladin if you were already a "for realz" paladin and then LOST your status. Since being LG is a pre-requisite for taking a level in paladin, the only way I'd ever let a player end up with levels of ex-paladin is if they WERE lawful good, took a legit level of paladin, and then AFTERWARDS did something to cost them their paladin powers. None of this boloney about already being CG and trying to take a level in a class that doesn't even exist.
I can't speak for how anyone else would rule it, but I wouldn't let someone pick up a "level of ex-paladin". My interpretation of the rules (and most certainly the intent of the rules) is that you can only become an ex-paladin if you were already a "for realz" paladin and then LOST your status. Since being LG is a pre-requisite for taking a level in paladin, the only way I'd ever let a player end up with levels of ex-paladin is if they WERE lawful good, took a legit level of paladin, and then AFTERWARDS did something to cost them their paladin powers. None of this boloney about already being CG and trying to take a level in a class that doesn't even exist.
Yes, as would I, but this is pretty easy to get around by starting out as a paladin, then just playing the character as whatever alignment you really want to play.
So... Paladins are better 1-level dips for the Will Save,
Fighters for Feat flexibility. OK.
Is it as obvious to you as it is to me that Paizo`s entire approach on balancing isn`t based on each and every level being exactly equal, but on continued progression in classes being beneficial and balanced? That the focus on giving a reason NOT to multi-class would make such 1-level dip comparisons pretty much irrelevant to Paizo`s paradigm? /shrug
BTW, I`m pretty sure Poison has no special bar on it`s use by Paladins (though specific oaths may vary),
but if you aren`t aware of the Chevalier PrC, they sound like something `up your ally`:
they have good Will progression, Enchantment Save Re-Rolls and 1/day Paladin Smite per total character level.
Paladin is the only way to get that extra will save as Iron Will is not a combat feat and cannot be taken as a bonus feat. Either way Ex-Paladin isn't a class you can take levels in.
True technically but having an extra combat feat at level one allows a fighter to shift his HD/Human bonus feat to Iron Will while still maintaining the combat feats, if he so chooses.
Paladin is the only way to get that extra will save as Iron Will is not a combat feat and cannot be taken as a bonus feat. Either way Ex-Paladin isn't a class you can take levels in.
Sure you can, you take level of Paladin and you become the Ex-Paladin simply by not being LG. They even do this in the AP paths. There is Paladin/Barbarian and Monk/Barbarian in two different APs.
Paladin is the only way to get that extra will save as Iron Will is not a combat feat and cannot be taken as a bonus feat. Either way Ex-Paladin isn't a class you can take levels in.Sure you can, you take level of Paladin and you become the Ex-Paladin simply by not being LG. They even do this in the AP paths. There is Paladin/Barbarian and Monk/Barbarian in two different APs.
Yeah, it was the NPC in one of the APs that gave me the idea in the first place.