Terrorism and Genocide


Advice

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Disclaimer: these things are bad. I know this. I know it happens in real life, and might be a sore subject for some readers (particularly those outside the United States). If these topics offend you, it'd do your blood pressure a favor to hit the back button.

So, now that my gamers are mature enough to handle stuff like BoVD, I'm trying to brainstorm how terrorism and genocide would function in a fantasy world. If a small group wanted to topple a government or purge a particular ethnic group from a kingdom, what would be the best method? What counters could the targets take? Etc.

By way of example, an easy way to take out a top-heavy government would be planar binding a few babaus or vrocks and sending them to assassinate important officials.
This tactic is countered by the forbiddance spell (when in their private sanctums) and/or magic circle against evil (when on the go).

Ethnic cleansing is trickier, since most area of effect spells don't discriminate between friends and foes. You could try using the sympathy spell to round them up surreptitiously before blowing them to hell with a fireball or cloudkill, but sympathy is a high level spell.

But there are other methods. Instead of hitting the king with finger of death, hit him with insanity. Rather than go to the trouble of rounding up the halflings and torching them, why not cast confusion in the bazaar and start a race riot?

Of course, sometimes subtlety would defeat the purpose of the attack.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?


Woof! Yeah, hittin on some pretty heavy subjects here...

Ok. Puttin on the serious hat here for a minute... there we go!

Your example of terrorism, isn't exactly accurate. That's more of a shadow-ops type thing. The whole purpose of terrorism is to frighten not the officials in charge, but the populace they govern into your way of thinking. This is why most acts of terrorism in the modern day tend to involve explosives. The targets in and of themselves matter little, it's all about sending a message, which is "listen to us, or we might kill you". It's the 'might' that is supposed to instill loyalty. Unless whoever is performing these acts knows that you support them completely, you are theoretically a target.
In theory, terrorism is meant to foment enough discord among the populace, that they no longer trust in their own officials to protect them, and therefore join the opposition out of necessity.


Terrorism is relatively (and disgustingly) easy. In my campaign the Assassins Guilds started as terrorists (they eventually dumped the "cause" and went commercial...). Murdering people is a start. Leaving Delayed Blast Fireballs laying arounf the market works too. Just look over the tactics of current terrorists and sub magic as needed.

Ethnic cleansing / genocide works like real life too. It has to be perpetrated by the group in power (or it's just terrorism). You marginalize them, strip them of any rights, demonize them (that is portray them as the source of all problems), isolate them and then eliminate them. It's been tried (and stopped by PCs) in my game world.

The will to do it and the power is all that's required. Terrorism is, of course, easier because it doesn't require you be in power (quite the opposite). Ethnic cleansing / genocide is rarer because it requires control of an area / population.


Lipto the Shiv wrote:

Woof! Yeah, hittin on some pretty heavy subjects here...

Ok. Puttin on the serious hat here for a minute... there we go!

Your example of terrorism, isn't exactly accurate. That's more of a shadow-ops type thing. The whole purpose of terrorism is to frighten not the officials in charge, but the populace they govern into your way of thinking. This is why most acts of terrorism in the modern day tend to involve explosives. The targets in and of themselves matter little, it's all about sending a message, which is "listen to us, or we might kill you". It's the 'might' that is supposed to instill loyalty. Unless whoever is performing these acts knows that you support them completely, you are theoretically a target.
In theory, terrorism is meant to foment enough discord among the populace, that they no longer trust in their own officials to protect them, and therefore join the opposition out of necessity.

Personally, unless it was carried out by a rival government, I'd file assassination under terrorism.

And it doesn't have to be a fireball or delayed poison bomb; a summoner who casts fly and greater invisibility on a Huge eidolon with reach, Lunge, and Whirlwind Attack could easily kill large numbers of people.

I guess terrorism really is easy with magic. Which begs the question: how would counter terrorism work.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:


I guess terrorism really is easy with magic. Which begs the question: how would counter terrorism work.

Think SEALS with access to divination and other magic. Magic makes terrorism easier, counter terrorism too I suspect.


Rwanda demonstrated that a motivated population with machetes is plenty for genocide, no high technology, magic, or even massive administrative capacity is required.


EWHM wrote:


Rwanda demonstrated that a motivated population with machetes is plenty for genocide, no high technology, magic, or even massive administrative capacity is required.

There was significant government / political involvement in that one.


R_Chance wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:


I guess terrorism really is easy with magic. Which begs the question: how would counter terrorism work.
Think SEALS with access to divination and other magic. Magic makes terrorism easier, counter terrorism too I suspect.

Hmm yes, I see. Arcane sight would identify the magic users and dangerous items like a wand of fire snake or a horn of blasting. Contact other plane would enable swift verification of intelligence gathered via more mundane means, while seek thoughts and detect thoughts allow for more general and useful intelligence from persons of interest (with arcane sight to determine if they are wearing an amulet of proof against detection and location or a ring of mind shielding).

And of course, discern location + greater teleport lets you scry-and-fry any perp dumb enough to be seen.


Without dragging this into the politics section, I would just point out that "terrorism" isn't a real thing. Or perhaps I should say that it is just a label that can be applied to anything that produces a psychological influence on a populace. Any act can be labeled as "terrorism", especially if it violates written or unwritten standards of one side.

Order of the Stick has done a good job addressing "genocide" in the form of a humans vs goblin ongoing struggle. I highly recommend Books "-1", "0", and book 2 "No cure for the paladin blues" for a really insightful take on how societies based on the D&D alignments and races would function.

Racial hatred and genocide are a staple of fantasy and especially D&D/Pathfinder. But real world examples really don't translate well, because almost no civilization that I know of has ever considered themselves anything but good. Every side thinks they are just and supported by a righteous god. In campaign worlds, there are generally whole races/nations/religions who revel in being evil, and are under evil gods who hold power over entire evil planes of existence. I think this pushes things into a more black and white interpretation of conflict. Once you start talking about fantasy Good and Evil, it turns into all-out, no-limits, Total war.

I think if you wanted more subtle conflicts with a more political element, you would need them to be between creatures of similar alignment, perhaps without any CE involved.


Well, no.

Fergie wrote:


Without dragging this into the politics section, I would just point out that "terrorism" isn't a real thing. Or perhaps I should say that it is just a label that can be applied to anything that produces a psychological influence on a populace. Any act can be labeled as "terrorism", especially if it violates written or unwritten standards of one side.

Terrorism involves the use of violence. If it's not violent, it's probably just propaganda. If it involves psychological coercion for political reasons through the use of violence, it's terrorism.

Fergie wrote:


Order of the Stick has done a good job addressing "genocide" in the form of a humans vs goblin ongoing struggle. I highly recommend Books "-1", "0", and book 2 "No cure for the paladin blues" for a really insightful take on how societies based on the D&D alignments and races would function.

Occasionally funny, but not my favorite. Then again I haven't read it in quite a while.

Fergie wrote:


Racial hatred and genocide are a staple of fantasy and especially D&D/Pathfinder. But real world examples really don't translate well, because almost no civilization that I know of has ever considered themselves anything but good. Every side thinks they are just and supported by a righteous god. In campaign worlds, there are generally whole races/nations/religions who revel in being evil, and are under evil gods who hold power over entire evil planes of existence. I think this pushes things into a more black and white interpretation of conflict. Once you start talking about fantasy Good and Evil, it turns into all-out, no-limits, Total war.

I'd say they consider themselves "right". Wrong = evil in real life. I'm sure the Nazis thought they were right (good). In D&D / PF people don't have a problem with labelling themselves "evil", they just think it's the right way to be.

Fergie wrote:


I think if you wanted more subtle conflicts with a more political element, you would need them to be between creatures of similar alignment, perhaps without any CE involved.

Not necessarily. Any conflict can be subtle. Or overt.


Without getting into the existential debate, terrorism doesn't really have much of a consensus in academia. However one definition I like is violence by a non-state actor for the purpose of achieving some political aim.

This means that terrorism always has a point, terrorism without any real goal is just mass murder by psychopaths. Make sure there's a fleshed out reason why delayed-blast-fireballs are being tossed in the supermarket.

Genocide is the the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. However, genocide isn't something openly admitted, and whoever is committing the act does not normally perceive it as genocide, and instead beleive it to be either warfare, or even self defense.

Basically, if genocide is going on, it's going to very much be dressed up as necessary, even a good thing, since the genocided population would have been sufficiently dehumanized to the point that simple killing all of them would be indistinguishable from exterminating pests from one's house.


Are there any spells, pathfinder or otherwise, it's pacifically effect only one kind of creature?


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Are there any spells, pathfinder or otherwise, it's pacifically effect only one kind of creature?

If that type is humanoid, there are several spells that only target that creature type-- charm person, enlarge person, etc. A few that also only target undead.

I think some of the symbol type spells allow you to target by race.

Other then that, I can't think of any.


If I were in your players shoes and decided to attack the population rather than the government itself...

- I'd poison the well. Counter: Guards, periodic water blessings, and such.

- I'd use planar ally/binding to chat up a daemon with a knowledge of developing diseases to help me create a race-specific disease that treats anyone else as a carrier, but proves lethal for the targeted race. Counter: Reverse ghettos (good lodging, free healing, etc.) established to fight the epidemic.

- I'd create a variant construct that would consume a child's brain, store the organ within itself, and puppet the child around performing random acts of violence, arson, and so on. Maybe a variant soulbound doll? I would sell the item as a child's doll, focusing my marketing towards upper class households (an entire staff to terrorize). Counter: Magic toys that emit a burst of dispelling magic periodically to paralyze or possibly destroy the insidious dolls.

...just for starters.


A half dozen fifth level druids could bring an entire city to its knees. Just sit in the trees wildshaped and call lightning on the peasants all day.

Spark is an orison, fly from rooftop to rooftop setting them on fire.

Charm animal on similar animals to their chosen wildshapes, to run interference and confuse anyone looking for them. Soften earth and stone for landslides. Feast of ashes for lulz. Summon swarm in the taverns and guardhouses. All from the shape of an unassuming animal.

I mean yeah, you could do all sorts of terrible stuff at higher levels, but if you play it creatively, lower level folks can be just as nasty. Don't get me started on what a few well placed Witches can do to an otherwise happy society. Sweeny Todd anyone?


beej67 wrote:

A half dozen fifth level druids could bring an entire city to its knees. Just sit in the trees wildshaped and call lightning on the peasants all day.

Spark is an orison, fly from rooftop to rooftop setting them on fire.

Charm animal on similar animals to their chosen wildshapes, to run interference and confuse anyone looking for them. Soften earth and stone for landslides. Feast of ashes for lulz. Summon swarm in the taverns and guardhouses. All from the shape of an unassuming animal.

I mean yeah, you could do all sorts of terrible stuff at higher levels, but if you play it creatively, lower level folks can be just as nasty. Don't get me started on what a few well placed Witches can do to an otherwise happy society. Sweeny Todd anyone?

I like the way you think...


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
I guess terrorism really is easy with magic. Which begs the question: how would counter terrorism work.

Expand the usefulness of the contingency spell.

On the terrorism side, choose a nasty spell and cast it with a spell trigger of "when enough humans are around, boom." Or, scribe an exploding rune on the inside of a public restroom in an important building that only explodes when read by a certain individual. (Possibly a limerick of some sort.)

Counterterrorism, you could create magical devices of permanent detect/dispel magic, that would have an aura of detect magic always working, and the dispel would be triggered instantly upon detection of certain spell schools or even certain spells. This could be useful in a hospital, for instance, where healing spells would need to work but plenty of other spells would be unwelcome.

A counterterrorism department would almost certainly be staffed by abjuration/divination specialist wizards, like in Baldur's Gate 2, in a major city. In a not so major city, the role could be filled by anyone who can pick up UMD and a wand of dispel magic. You could create an NPC "magic hunter" specialist.

Grand Lodge

Bio Ops is probably the easiest - especially if you have the cure.

The 2nd module of the Curse of the Crimson throne is brilliant in how it portrays how a plague can hit the city and overwhelm a cities clerical resources for Cure Disease etc.

Get 10-20 ppl together under sleep, cast contagion on them all and then replace them around the city. Wait.

Then call the resulting scourge a judgement of the gods - declare the ruler has lost the mandate of heaven and do some miracle cures (tip: be well stocked with wands of cure disease and anti-plague alchemical doses before you even start).

While the CDC may well be able to trace back to the multiple patient Zeros and understand it is a bio op, its a bit more tricky in a fantasy world, but can be managed with magic - take steps to ensure that you have proper shielding, use magic to control key tools/resources or blank their memories.

Sometimes I think I am frightened by how easily we can treat these sort of discussions as an academic exercise.


Terrorism is real and it has a pretty specific goal in modern times, which is usually its goal.

Terrorists want their own group to be the target of retribution. When terrorists blow up a building, they want the fear it causes to motivate people to attack their own group. This will cause that group to believe the attack was justified and radicalize more of them. This positive feedback loop - attack, counter attack, radicalize, attack, counter attack, radicalize - is what leads to revolution for the attackers.

Now, the US government sells us our products, laws, and politicians with fear, so in a lot of ways terrorism gives the government what they want, and if you ask me, they are behind a lot of it, but not all of it.

It is also why the government seems so PC. For example: not targeting Arabs exclusively at the airport. The POINT of the 9/11 bombings was to get Arabs to be pooped on at airports, to piss them off, to make more terrorists. By not doing that, we are stunting the cycle of violence.

Put this into a fantasy setting - you could get things like high elves that believe being ruled by a human king is a farce. They start killing humans openly to get humans to be fearful of an attack normal high elves. In response, the regular elves get pissed at the humans offenses towards them and a general movement towards self determinism spawns in elf communities. Being the older race, and after being completely radicalized by several rounds of terrorism and counter attacks by the population at large, leading to wide spread oppression of high elves everywhere, they accumulate all of their magic and use it to destroy the Royal family, fracturing the country into civil war.


Start giving 'motivational speeches' on street corners designed to train the populace in the use of the Antagonize feat. Use glibness and bluff to make them think it's a good idea. Civilisation will soon crumble.


Helaman wrote:
Sometimes I think I am frightened by how easily we can treat these sort of discussions as an academic exercise.

This is how counterterrorism is possible.

+1 bio ops. That idea reminds me of the movie Black Death (which I don't necessarily recommend). Basically it's about how religion, plague, and the rumors of magic and necromancy in a remote (and therefore healthy) village interact.

Spoiler:
They all kill each other. Religious intolerance at its finest.

It's an interesting mental exercise in what could happen in a low magic campaign, given sufficient zealotry on behalf of the church. It's also a reminder that terrorism can be perpetrated on the populace by those in power (although the Inquisition is a better example).

Terrorism is also something that can be visited on a populace by its own people. The Salem witch trials show us this.

Find a common fear and exploit it.

Personally, I find explosions to be uninspired showboating, with the side effect of unifying the populace against you. I find the public execution of hostages to be far more terrifying and chilling, speaking to the absolute lack of humanity in the perpetrators. Terrorism is one part violence and two parts helplessness, and effective terrorism paralyzes a populace rather than mobilizing or emboldening it.

A few kidnappings and a simple image spell in the middle of town could do the trick.


That brings up excellent point: the manufacture of incidents using illusion magic. Even if 10 percent of the witnesses make their saves, you will still have 90 percent of the population believing events occurred one way and not the other.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
That brings up excellent point: the manufacture of incidents using illusion magic. Even if 10 percent of the witnesses make their saves, you will still have 90 percent of the population believing events occurred one way and not the other.

Good Point!

With the ability to use spells like disguise self, alter self, form of the X, and... good god... MAGIC JAR. You could really frame people with total accuracy.

When it comes to starting wars, the oldest trick is making enemies. The Reichstag fire, the Gulf of Tonkin, etc. Get them to attack you first.

Hmmm. Somewhere in my mind there is some higher level bard spell that even lets you implant or alter memories. But maybe it is a false memory.


Terrorism becomes pretty pointless at higher levels once you have access to scry and teleport.

Scry on an important government official in their sleep.
Teleport into their bedroom.
Stab them in the throat.
Teleport away.
Repeat.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
beej67 wrote:

Terrorism becomes pretty pointless at higher levels once you have access to scry and teleport.

Scry on an important government official in their sleep.
Teleport into their bedroom.
Stab them in the throat.
Teleport away.
Repeat.

I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.


Ravingdork wrote:
beej67 wrote:

Terrorism becomes pretty pointless at higher levels once you have access to scry and teleport.

Scry on an important government official in their sleep.
Teleport into their bedroom.
Stab them in the throat.
Teleport away.
Repeat.

I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.

I'm sure there aren't that many individuals enlightened to the point that they can move through space and time that play in politics. The whole idea of it is stupid.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cranewings wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
beej67 wrote:

Terrorism becomes pretty pointless at higher levels once you have access to scry and teleport.

Scry on an important government official in their sleep.
Teleport into their bedroom.
Stab them in the throat.
Teleport away.
Repeat.

I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.
I'm sure there aren't that many individuals enlightened to the point that they can move through space and time that play in politics. The whole idea of it is stupid.

Sorry. To which idea are you referring to?


Ravingdork wrote:
cranewings wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
beej67 wrote:

Terrorism becomes pretty pointless at higher levels once you have access to scry and teleport.

Scry on an important government official in their sleep.
Teleport into their bedroom.
Stab them in the throat.
Teleport away.
Repeat.

I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.
I'm sure there aren't that many individuals enlightened to the point that they can move through space and time that play in politics. The whole idea of it is stupid.
Sorry. To which idea are you referring to?

That magical wizards are all the time teleporting into king's bed chambers and killing them.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cranewings wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
cranewings wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
beej67 wrote:

Terrorism becomes pretty pointless at higher levels once you have access to scry and teleport.

Scry on an important government official in their sleep.
Teleport into their bedroom.
Stab them in the throat.
Teleport away.
Repeat.

I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.
I'm sure there aren't that many individuals enlightened to the point that they can move through space and time that play in politics. The whole idea of it is stupid.
Sorry. To which idea are you referring to?
That magical wizards are all the time teleporting into king's bed chambers and killing them.

Well, in that case, I agree. Kings (and even non-royal nobles) can easily affors a few long duration anti-teleport/anti-divination spell effects/magic items in their abodes. Even the poor ones can fill their homes with a small army of bodyguards (making an assassination attempt a fun mini-adventure rather than an auto-success).


Ravingdork wrote:
I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.

I appreciate your opinions and your command of this rule system, RD. How would you stop it?

Liberty's Edge

Terrorism and Genocide ?

Just get a PCs posse and let them loose.


R_Chance wrote:

Terrorism is relatively (and disgustingly) easy. In my campaign the Assassins Guilds started as terrorists (they eventually dumped the "cause" and went commercial...). Murdering people is a start. Leaving Delayed Blast Fireballs laying arounf the market works too. Just look over the tactics of current terrorists and sub magic as needed.

Ethnic cleansing / genocide works like real life too. It has to be perpetrated by the group in power (or it's just terrorism). You marginalize them, strip them of any rights, demonize them (that is portray them as the source of all problems), isolate them and then eliminate them. It's been tried (and stopped by PCs) in my game world.

The will to do it and the power is all that's required. Terrorism is, of course, easier because it doesn't require you be in power (quite the opposite). Ethnic cleansing / genocide is rarer because it requires control of an area / population.

I use class warfare in my game Wizard vs Sorcerer, Wizard vs Witches, Cleric vs Oracles, & Druids vs Clerics.


beej67 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.

I appreciate your opinions and your command of this rule system, RD. How would you stop it?

I'm not RD, but some things occur to me...

To quote from the Teleportation spell description (PFRPG Core pg.358):

"Areas of strong physical or magical energy may
make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible."

There's some room for interpretation, but magical energy is pretty typical in the abodes of the rich and powerful. Could be in the walls of the castle for example. Probably more so if the teleport and murder schtick has been done in the past.

Then of course, when you Scry there's the Will save. Paranoia and rulers being close companions the sense that you're being spied on might trigger enhanced precautions. Then there are magic items like the Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location (pg. 500 PFRPG Core). There is the good old Iron Golem (looking like an antique suit of plate) by the bed / in the room guardian bit. One of my more paranoid rulers has a bed / golem. Handy, but you do need good bedding. Resurection being what it is you can't even count on a mundane death keeping them down either.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
beej67 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I'm sure most important government officials have defenses against that sort of thing.

I appreciate your opinions and your command of this rule system, RD. How would you stop it?

- permanent walls of force enclosing the home or regular meeting places to prevent teleportation

- nondetection on state official
- detect scrying on state official
- mage's private sanctum in the home or regular meeting places
- false vision to mislead diviners
- guards and wards in the home or regular meeting places
- permanent image of state official sleeping in bed
- sequester on state official while sleeping or traveling
- legend lore to divine potential assassins BEFORE they strike
- dimensional lock in state official's private chambers
- any permanent symbol spell throughout the state official's home that is attuned only to the official himself and his most trusted staff
- screen to protect state official's home from divination
- foresight on state official so he knows what's coming at all times

Many of these can be combined. For example, you can use permanent image and false vision in conjunction with the alarm spell and lots of guards to capture potential scry/teleport assassins (my Gm did this to me once when I got excessively cocky and arrogant, made for a heck of escape mini-adventure).

There are SO many ways to defeat magical assassins, it isn't even funny. The above ONLY includes core spells. There are several magical items that might also protect state officials in similar fashion, not to mention the ever growing spells in other sources (such as APG and UM) which I could have included. Even mundane methods could be used (such as having lead paint in one's walls to stop scrying).


I imagine in such settings where sucha thing takes place magic is much more regulated. Wizards are required to get a license to operate, sorcerers are identified while still in preschool, bards are carefully monitered, churches have to keep a registry of all its members etc. etc.

I imagine the issue wouldn't be too dissimilar from the firearms issue we have today with careful regulation of spells and spellcasters. You'd have one side trying to opt to allow spellcasters to train and prepare spells freely in order to better defend themselves from such a strike before or while they are occuring while a separate group would not be happy until spellcasters simply ceased to exist.

You could base an entire campaign around the idea of a big move for banning magic after a disgruntled wizard blows up a few market places and creates a bunch of free cannibalistic zombies from the corpses. Yu have a population baying for the blood of all spellcasters wizards and sorcerers doing their best to fight for their rights and the adventurers caught between.

Sometimes it's not the terrorism and genocide itself that makes for an interesting campaign but the aftermath of such acts.


overthrowing a king is easy, go into his castle and kill him, if you're not strong enough for that, it is unlikely you have the money to start anything else. (exception: a group of rogues and poison)
Else: use bluff and diplomacy on his staff and let them do the riot.

ethnic cleaning is easiest (with a little bit of GM leniency) with an inflict disease spell that produces a disease that propagates via touch but is only deadly to *insert race here*.
Of course some healers will heal some people, but as other races can carry the disease without harm, they probably won't get healed and re-infect.
If you want to be more pro-active, kill every healer of that race you can find, and trough diplomacy and bluff convince other races to not help the one you want terminated.

by the way, once those things are done, many GMs will very quickly punish the group very hard. Ethnic cleansing isn't taken kindly by gods associated with that race.


This sort of thing has been considered in science fiction circles.

Larry Niven (Speculation on the theory and practice of teleportation) wrote:

THE ASSUMPTION: No receiver is needed. Our teleport transmitter will place its cargo anywhere we choose.

THE RESULT: We can put a bomb anywhere. The idea was used at least once, in THE PERSON FROM
PORLOCK. In practice, a government that owned one of these would-again-own the world. Two such
governments would probably bomb each other back to a preteleport level of civilization. Presumably it could
happen any number of times.

Since wizards are harder to assassinate than technological infrastructure is to bomb the endpoint would probably be the depopulation of the warring powers rather than the collapse of technology.

Similarly modern counterinsurgency methods rely on creating safe areas and cannot work in a setting with teleportation. One level 7 wizard can pull off an impressive terrorist campaign until caught. Several can wipe out a nation as a nation even if the government has similar magical support. Bureaucrats tend to not be hard to kill and the most critical layer of necessity must accessible to the populace.


There's always the most mundane form of anti-assassination: Bodyguards. A magus or fighter/wizard could be very effective at stopping various attacks in public. Cast mage armor on the boss, detect magic on the area, and stand there looking imposing.

But to depart from assassination for a bit, and continue on the idea that terrorism doesn't need to be an actual act of violence, it can merely be the threat of violence or terror:

Threaten to poison or dry up the water supply.
Threaten to make crops wither and die.
Threaten to flood the sewers with a decanter of endless water. My favorite option.
Threaten to make it rain or snow year round. (This one might require a sample summer blizzard, just to let people know you can actually do it.)

Dealing with threats like these would likely require finding the would-be perpetrator and bringing him to justice.


Atarlost wrote:


Similarly modern counterinsurgency methods rely on creating safe areas and cannot work in a setting with teleportation. One level 7 wizard can pull off an impressive terrorist campaign until caught. Several can wipe out a nation as a nation even if the government has similar magical support. Bureaucrats tend to not be hard to kill and the most critical layer of necessity must accessible to the populace.

You forgot the other half. Kill the terrorists (especially the leadership). All the magical techniques open to would be terrorists are also open to counter terrorists. Odds are good that the state has more resources (or the other side wouldn't have to resort to terrorism). In the case of magical terrorism eliminating the leaders has a dual effect. It disorganizes / demoralizes the terrorists and (in all likelihood) it deprives them of their magical talent degrading their ability to conduct magical terrorism.


R_Chance wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


Similarly modern counterinsurgency methods rely on creating safe areas and cannot work in a setting with teleportation. One level 7 wizard can pull off an impressive terrorist campaign until caught. Several can wipe out a nation as a nation even if the government has similar magical support. Bureaucrats tend to not be hard to kill and the most critical layer of necessity must accessible to the populace.
You forgot the other half. Kill the terrorists (especially the leadership). All the magical techniques open to would be terrorists are also open to counter terrorists. Odds are good that the state has more resources (or the other side wouldn't have to resort to terrorism). In the case of magical terrorism eliminating the leaders has a dual effect. It disorganizes / demoralizes the terrorists and (in all lekelihood) it deprives them of their magical talent degrading their ability to conduct magical terrorism.

Mages are a much harder target than tax collectors. Finding and killing a level 7+ wizard that moves about randomly is much harder than finding and killing a level 2 expert or aristocrat that works in an office or travels from town to town on a publicly known schedule.


Atarlost wrote:


Mages are a much harder target than tax collectors. Finding and killing a level 7+ wizard that moves about randomly is much harder than finding and killing a level 2 expert or aristocrat that works in an office or travels from town to town on a publicly known schedule.

But they are more replacable than a 7th level wizard. And they make good decoys. Odds are good the state has more magical talent too.


In all honesty, I think any fantasy government, regardless of what they say hey are, is in fact a magocracy. The sample Aristocrat 16 king in the GMG had to get his +1 glamered full plate of light fortification, +1 longsword, cape of the mountebank, medallion of thoughts, and rod of splendor from somewhere, and I don't see Master Craftsman in his write up.

Even if the king is wise, and not merely a puppet of the court wizards, he will still rely on their divinations to make good decisions.

I guarantee this scene has never happened in the history of ever:

Expert 20: "I have Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (history) +35!"
Wizard 11: "I can draw on the knowledge of the vastest powers in the Great Beyond to find the answer to any question. Unfortunately my Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (history) are only +23."
King: "I'm sorry, Omniscius of the Infinite Eyes, but I'm looking for an advisor with some education.


One thing to consider: Magic could be very much exceptionally rare, and the rate in which adventures interact with them is very much out of the norm for people.

Curse of the Crimson Throne was actually pretty great in articulating this by giving the DM an idea as to why Divine casters couldn't just flat out heal the plague wholesale.

Therefore, normal precautions against arcane fueled assassinations might not actually be or considerable worry for governments.

Indeed, the disgruntled use of arcane magic to cause political harm might be a wonderful adventure or setting hook. An unprecedented political act that elicits a wide range of reactions from both the state and the populous.


R_Chance wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


Mages are a much harder target than tax collectors. Finding and killing a level 7+ wizard that moves about randomly is much harder than finding and killing a level 2 expert or aristocrat that works in an office or travels from town to town on a publicly known schedule.
But they are more replacable than a 7th level wizard. And they make good decoys. Odds are good the state has more magical talent too.

No need to kill all of them or even most of them. Just enough that they're afraid to do their jobs. That's what terrorism is about. If the last three people to take a job died violent deaths shortly after beginning their employment nobody is going to want to take the job.

Now suppose this is Venice messing with Genoa. What's Genoa going to do besides retaliate in kind?


Atarlost wrote:


No need to kill all of them or even most of them. Just enough that they're afraid to do their jobs. That's what terrorism is about. If the last three people to take a job died violent deaths shortly after beginning their employment nobody is going to want to take the job.

Now suppose this is Venice messing with Genoa. What's Genoa going to do besides retaliate in kind?

It always works to an extent, especially if no actions are taken to counter it. Face it though, if it threatens the basis of the state something will be done. They'll use higher level people, pay more, take security measures and kill terrorists. It's move and counter move.

If you want a current example of state sponsored terrorism I'd think Pakistan and India. The ISI has close links to a number of Moslem extremist outfits which just happen to set off bombs / shoot people in India. Occasionally, they go to war of course, but with both having nuclear weapons now that's getting to be a less viable way to settle accounts...


R_Chance wrote:
Atarlost wrote:


No need to kill all of them or even most of them. Just enough that they're afraid to do their jobs. That's what terrorism is about. If the last three people to take a job died violent deaths shortly after beginning their employment nobody is going to want to take the job.

Now suppose this is Venice messing with Genoa. What's Genoa going to do besides retaliate in kind?

It always works to an extent, especially if no actions are taken to counter it. Face it though, if it threatens the basis of the state something will be done. They'll use higher level people, pay more, take security measures and kill terrorists. It's move and counter move.

If you want a current example of state sponsored terrorism I'd think Pakistan and India. The ISI has close links to a number of Moslem extremist outfits which just happen to set off bombs / shoot people in India. Occasionally, they go to war of course, but with both having nuclear weapons now that's getting to be a less viable way to settle accounts...

I wanted to avoid examples so much larger than are likely to be seen in RPGs, but sure, India and Pakistan. Except that teleport has no range limit so there aren't safe areas. In the real world most of the violence is in Kashmir, but with teleport it wouldn't have to be. In the real world cordon and sweep works. With teleport it doesn't. Teleport kills almost every workable counterinsurgency tactic.


Atarlost wrote:
R_Chance wrote:

It always works to an extent, especially if no actions are taken to counter it. Face it though, if it threatens the basis of the state something will be done. They'll use higher level people, pay more, take security measures and kill terrorists. It's move and counter move.

If you want a current example of state sponsored terrorism I'd think Pakistan and India. The ISI has close links to a number of Moslem extremist outfits which just happen to set off bombs / shoot people in India. Occasionally, they go to war of course, but with both having nuclear weapons now that's getting to be a less viable way to settle accounts...

I wanted to avoid examples so much larger than are likely to be seen in RPGs, but sure, India and Pakistan. Except that teleport has no range limit so there aren't safe areas. In the real world most of the violence is in Kashmir, but with teleport it wouldn't have to be. In the real world cordon and sweep works. With teleport it doesn't. Teleport kills almost every workable counterinsurgency tactic.

Only outsiders can teleport at will. The state will have the resources and personnel to toss multiple teams after their target, and a sniper rogue would have no problem pegging them with a wand of dimensional anchor.

Liberty's Edge

Powerful PC's are often the greatest source of terrorism and genocide; be it by the simple act of adventuring, or throught malice and design.

I played a kobold bard/green dragon disciple in Second Darkness. When he took on the green dragon characteristics, he kinda dipped into the evil pool, then swam to the bottom of LE (he shared his soul with a green dragon as part of the qualification for the PrC).

When we went to a certain underground city for a certain mission, he recognized the significant threat this evil race posed to the surface world, so he made it his mission to commit a really nasty act of terrorism/genocide right under their noses.

Being the magic item making character, he constructed several magical bags and filled them with various kinds of underdark vermin (dead). Disguised as a local, he then placed these bags in the slums of the underground city and waited for a curious/greedy inhabitant to open them.

Once opened, the magical bag reanimated the vermin/rats/lizards as a swarm with the plague zombie template. These uncontrolled undead would go on a rampage and spread their disease to the population. Pretty soon, the city was dealing with a plague zombie infestion worthy of a George A. Romero film.

My character later repented, but the underground city still has zombie trouble.


Atarlost wrote:
Teleport kills almost every workable counterinsurgency tactic.

And new counterinsurgency tactics spring up to counteract them.

Also, Teleport requires a 9th lvl Wizard or 10th Lvl Sorcerer.

Getting to that point is no easy feat, and is very much above and beyond human peak (which is represented by 5th lvl).

Magic follows a particular set of rules, and it's by having a full understanding of them that people are best able to figure out how more familiar concepts of international relations function as a result.


A lot of the problems with discussing RAW as a definitive answer to some of these questions, is that the RAW wasn't designed with these questions in mind.

The rules of the game were made for a party of characters to operate in an adventure.

The questions are about magic on a societal level. You don't have to go any further than the crafting skill to see how the rules break down.

Kingmaker rules have stuff for more societal and army-sized effects. "Scry-proof room" is something that you can buy for your kingdom, as an example.

Coming up with a spell or item or limitation on magic on a grander scale than "adventurers in a dungeon" should be well within the purvue of the DM as these are questions that are not readily answered by the rules.

That being said... there's something from the Dresden Files that could be good:

Spoiler:
In the books, there's an agency that is sowing chaos and evil by giving a "little too much power" to those with "not enough information/warning".
Things like belts of shapechanging, that also gives the users bloodlust. Turning a once good intentioned FBI agent into a man who no longer cares who he hurts to get at the bad guy he intends to take down "his way".

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