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Alright, consider the following character:
Cledwyn, Human Fighter
Level 3 (all fighter, no archetype)
STR 18
CON 12
DEX 14
INT 13 (for Combat Expertise, taken at lv1)
WIS 12
CHA 8
Now, this is a PFS character, meaning he'll never go past level 12. As you can see, at next level he gets his first stat bump. The question is, where should I put that bump?
INT would immediately get me some skill ranks, but there would be no meaningful increase in anything else until level 12 (since the rest of his stats are even).
Leaving INT for the level 12 bump would mean that by level 8 I could improve my modifier for one of my other stats - I could get some extra HP with CON, extra AC with DEX, extra to-hit and damage with STR, extra Will and Perception with WIS...
Any recommendations?
Cledwyn, Human Fighter
What type of Fighter is he? Are you specializing in melee weapons? Ranged? Do you intend to execute combat maneuvers often?
Also, is your character going to be the 'party face' or is someone else handling that? (More on that, how useful would those skill ranks be?)
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Cledwyn, Human Fighter
What type of Fighter is he? Are you specializing in melee weapons? Ranged? Do you intend to execute combat maneuvers often?
Also, is your character going to be the 'party face' or is someone else handling that? (More on that, how useful would those skill ranks be?)
He's primarily melee, with Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. He currently has an AC of 25, fighting with a MW Flail and a +1 Buckler. He also carries a MW Composite Longbow (STR +3) for when the need arises.
There's no such thing as a designated "party face" in PFS, since you never know who else is in the party.
Knowledge (local) gets used a lot in PFS (so far), so having the spare ranks to give me the option of at least rolling it would be nice.
Cledwyn, Human Fighter
What type of Fighter is he? Are you specializing in melee weapons? Ranged? Do you intend to execute combat maneuvers often?
Also, is your character going to be the 'party face' or is someone else handling that? (More on that, how useful would those skill ranks be?)
He's primarily melee, with Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. He currently has an AC of 25, fighting with a MW Flail and a +1 Buckler. He also carries a MW Composite Longbow (STR +3) for when the need arises.
There's no such thing as a designated "party face" in PFS, since you never know who else is in the party.
Knowledge (local) gets used a lot in PFS (so far), so having the spare ranks to give me the option of at least rolling it would be nice.
I'd say you really have 3 options then...
1. Go with Str at levels4/8 for a higher success rate on the combat maneuvers and for more attack/damage.
2. Go with Con at levels4/8 for better survivability (although you'd gain the same HP benefit from 1 point in con as you would from Toughness, you'd just miss the Fort save bump).
3. Go with Int if you're concerned about having skill ranks to move around.
My hesitation with #3 is that a dead adventurer still can't make skill checks... but I'm not experienced with PFS play, so I'm just working on theory here.
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Ineterestingly, I made this character prior to learning the "always have at least 12-14 CON" rule of thumb. I've heard that this "rule" is most important at the first couple of levels, when you haven't had much time to develop and a single crit can cut you down. Having already survived through that part, bumping CON seems less useful.
Even so, you can't argue with more HP.
A bump to Fort saves, being my one good save in the first place, seems like a minor concern.
Yeah, the skill ranks probably aren't worth it, so I'll go ahead and count that out.
I already have Iron Will, so a WIS bump on 4/8 would help make him a very reliable comrade.
Of course, to-hit and damage is always good, too. Getting better at his main function and all that.
On the other hand, he already does well with his flail. Getting a little better with the bow by bumping DEX at 4/8 would improve his versatility, while simultaneously bumping his AC - that's 5% of d20 rolls that would've hit before but then wouldn't.
Man, I agonize waaaaaaaay too much over these types of decisions.
Man, I agonize waaaaaaaay too much over these types of decisions.
Honestly, there are several correct answers to go with. I'm not sure that I'd suggest the Dex option unless you are a non-archetype fighter and are getting Armor Training. Anyway, arguments can be made for any of it.
"Well if I had 1 more hp/level I could have lived long enough to reach the wizard frying me"
"If only I had 1 more +hit/dmg I would have finished that creature off before he killed me"
"If I only had 1 more to my touch AC, that disintegrate would have missed!"
Some stats will perform well in some places, but there will be far more situations that come up which make you wish that you chose a different option. You can always number the options and roll a d6 to determine the answer. Then you can just blame the dice!
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I'm not sure that I'd suggest the Dex option unless you are a non-archetype fighter and are getting Armor Training.
He is:
Level 3 (all fighter, no archetype)
Anyway, you're right, probably any of them would be worthwhile. Maybe I should take your advice and roll it. ;)
I'll be boring and recommend Strength.
I'm not sure that I'd suggest the Dex option unless you are a non-archetype fighter and are getting Armor Training.He is:
Level 3 (all fighter, no archetype)Anyway, you're right, probably any of them would be worthwhile. Maybe I should take your advice and roll it. ;)
See, I personally should have taken the Int to get more skill ranks into Perception, that would I wouldn't have failed my check on this information.
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IIRC, this is your disarm/trip guy with the heavy flail, right?
Bump INT.
-- Why?
The last thing you want is some jerk with Touch of Idiocy "shutting off" your INT-dependent Combat Expertise-based feat-chains. He has a 100% chance to do so if your INT is 13, a 5/6th chance to do so if it's 14, and only a 50% chance if it's 16 (as with a Headband).
Besides, 5/lvl skills as a human fighter (I assume your favored class bonus is going into HP) is nothing to sneeze at. Imagine +8 ranks (4th-12th) in your "dayjob" skill -- you can rake in some good bucks making the higher DCs.
Suggested order (give or take a little) of magical item purchases (paid for in cash, not PA) in PFS for low-CON fighters with DEX:14:
* Magic Weapon scrolls (a few are enough; give to casters at beginning of adventure); get at least one as an oil so you can do it yourself.
* Mithril full-plate: 10,600gp (includes the -100gp cost of 200gp ordinary breastplate sold back).
-- That's right; hoard your cash until you have that sweet, sweet armor.
Rationale #1: a Combat Expertise fighter in MFP is a true "tank" in every sense of the word: you can bottle up a hallway fighting defensively with crazy high AC. Who cares if your attacks are, for the moment, weaker than they could be if nothing can hit you? MFP also delays the necessity of having to do anything about your miserable CON.
Rationale #2: Rushing to upgrade to a +1 weapon is a waste of 2000gp because you simply won't need it as a STR:18 fighter using two-handed weapons. It's especially a waste if, after blowing two grand, you think to yourself, "I can't wait to scrape together another 6,000 so this stupid hunk of garbage can finally actually do something cool...like smack people in the face with acid!" -- and if you do that, then for 8,000gp you still have a weapon with the same attack bonus as a MW weapon, and you haven't spent 8k on the best armor you could possibly have and which will save your scrawny butt when trolls are trying to rend you.
(My Living Greyhawk polearm guy fought with a MW glaive until 10th level in Living Greyhawk. Never sweated a drop worrying about it being sundered, blown up or stolen, and that happened more than once.)
* Ioun Stone: Iridescent Spindle (cracked): 500gp, +4 on CON checks to hold your breath (competence)
-- Are you wearing full-plate? Do you have low CON? Do you like water adventures? <blub-blub-blub> Do you like Stinking Cloud? <gasp-gasp-gasp> Well, do ya, punk?
* Cloak of Resistance +1, 1,000gp
* +1 the MFP (2000gp)
* Ioun Stone: Pale Green Prism, Cracked (4000gp) +1 att; competence
-- This assists all attacks you make with any weapon, and stacks with just about everything except bardsong and Heroism. (The only PFS "bard" I've seen in the Mpls area is a sandman variant who forfeits Inspire Courage.)
* Ioun Stone: Dusty Rose Prism (in Wayfinder): 5,150gp, +1 AC; resonates +2 CMB and CMD (insight)
-- As a disarm/tripper with low CON, you may want this earlier.
* upgrade Cloak of Resistance to +2, +3,000gp.
* +1/+??? weapon upgrade: 8,0000gp.
-- If you were a barbarian, +1/Furious would be obvious, but since you're not, I would recommend either Spell-storing ("Hey Mr. Wizard, got a spare Scorching Ray?") or Tranformative ("Hey Mr. Aberration immune to bludgeoning but vulnerable to piercing, I'd like you to meet my heavy pick!")
* Amulet of natural armor +1 or +2 AC: 2,000gp or 8000gp
* Ring of Protection +1 or +2 AC: 2,000gp or 8000gp (deflection)
* Ioun Stone: Pale Green Prism (cracked): 5,000gp, +1 all saves (competence)
-- There are two kinds of cracked PGP Iouns; get them both!
* Ring of Feather Fall: 2,200gp
-- Two rings is the limit for you (unless you buy one of those mummified hands to hold another -- but they steal away the neck slot being used for the AoNA).
* upgrade Cloak of Resistance to +3, +6,000gp.
* Grappler's Mask: 5,000gp
-- Perform bull-rushes and grapples without provoking AoOs.
* Headband of Mental Prowess (INT/WIS) +2: 10,000gp
-- +1 will save, and your chances of coming through Touch of Idiocy "feats intact" go from 16.67% (with INT 14) to 50% (with INT 16).
* Boots of Speed, 12,000gp
* Gloves of Dueling: 15,000gp (+2/+2 att/dmg w/"Weapon Training" melee weapon)
-- The pure win for fighters here is intoxicating, especially if you have a highly versatile weapon like a heavy flail which you intend to use almost exclusively.
* 3rd upgrade on weapon: 10,000gp
* Belt of Physical Perfection +2: 16,000gp
-- Tops off your DEX bonus to the mithril, gives you 1hp/lvl, and gets your STR to 22 (with two level bumps) at 12th.
.
You can buy all of this stuff for under 100k, so you should be able to do it by 12th.
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You can always count on Mike for a thorough, number-inclusive reply. :D
Point of clarification: regular flail, not heavy. One-handed.
Now, I do wonder why you're suggesting I spend the extra several thousand gold to have my full plate made of mithral. Unless it's for the extra HP/hardness of the armor (in case of sundering), I think you may be overlooking something: the Pathfinder fighter's "armor training" class ability. Once Cledwyn hit 3rd level, he reduced his ACP by 1 and increased his max DEX bonus by 1 for any armor he wears. So by the time I bought him his +1 full plate (non-mithral), he was able to use his full DEX bonus. And since pluses add HP and hardness to equipment, I don't see much need for the mithral.
For the record, due to armor training, a trait, and the masterwork-ness of his armor, Cledwyn's total ACP in full plate and a buckler is -3, and will be going down again later. Is there some other benefit of mithral that I'm missing?
Interesting idea on bumping INT... though getting ToI'd doesn't exactly shut him down - he can still just smash faces (though admittedly not as efficiently as the usual cookie-cutter cleave monkeys). As for skill ranks, he's currently maxing out Acro, Climb, Swim, and Baking. Now that I have 3 in Acro (getting my extra defensive bonuses), I might start putting a little into some Knowledge skills (especially local, as that seems to come up a lot).
His favored class bonus was HP at 1st, then the alternate human fighter bonus at 2 and 3: +1 to your CMD against two maneuvers of your choice. His CMD is currently 19 base, and 21 against disarm, trip, grapple, and... I think the other was sunder.
I like a lot of your suggestions, though I suspect some of them will change with more knowledge of the character. I look forward to hearing what other ideas you might have!
Now, I do wonder why you're suggesting I spend the extra several thousand gold to have my full plate made of mithral. Unless it's for the extra HP/hardness of the armor (in case of sundering), I think you may be overlooking something: the Pathfinder fighter's "armor training" class ability. Once Cledwyn hit 3rd level, he reduced his ACP by 1 and increased his max DEX bonus by 1 for any armor he wears. So by the time I bought him his +1 full plate (non-mithral), he was able to use his full DEX bonus. And since pluses add HP and hardness to equipment, I don't see much need for the mithral.
Because (I suspect) until you hit 7th level, you are slowed (20 ft move vs 30 ft) while wearing heavy armor. Of course, after 7th level, no fighter with armor training needs mithral armor of any type.
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Now, I do wonder why you're suggesting I spend the extra several thousand gold to have my full plate made of mithral. Unless it's for the extra HP/hardness of the armor (in case of sundering), I think you may be overlooking something: the Pathfinder fighter's "armor training" class ability. Once Cledwyn hit 3rd level, he reduced his ACP by 1 and increased his max DEX bonus by 1 for any armor he wears. So by the time I bought him his +1 full plate (non-mithral), he was able to use his full DEX bonus. And since pluses add HP and hardness to equipment, I don't see much need for the mithral.Because (I suspect) until you hit 7th level, you are slowed (20 ft move vs 30 ft) while wearing heavy armor. Of course, after 7th level, no fighter with armor training needs mithral armor of any type.
So at levels 3, 4, 5 and 6, having mithral full plate lets me move my full speed, while at levels 1, 2 and 7+, it confers no substantial benefit? Doesn't sound worthwhile. I suspect Mike's suggestion, then, was the result of him not being aware of the fighter's armor training ability. Guess I've got an extra 9,000gp to throw around. ;)
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I suspect Mike's suggestion, then, was the result of him not being aware of the fighter's armor training ability. Guess I've got an extra 9,000gp to throw around. ;)
Well, it's easy to forget if you're always either a dwarf (who doesn't care) or a variant fighter type (who trades the armor training for something else). ;)
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I look forward to hearing what other ideas you might have!
Since you're using a one-handed weapon, you only need to use one of the Gloves of Dueling (the description does not say you need to use both); this leave your other "hand"-slot open for some other item (Glove of Storing?).
Trick: Shield(Light, or Heavy Throwing) + Glove of Storing (on shield hand) + Potion of Heal (in glove). You get critted in combat at Tier 9-10, taking like 80pts or something. Acrobat out-of-threat (move), drop shield (if heavy-throwing, free), activate glove (free), drink potion (standard). Normally you would not be able to do this because drawing a potions is a move action which provokes (meaning the last thing you're going to do when at 2hp next to a reach-monster is give it an opp). This save-butt trick only works if you have good DEX and keep Acrobatics maxed.
Anyway, back to the level-bump business....
Level 3 (all fighter, no archetype)
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 13 (for Combat Expertise, taken at lv1)
WIS 12
CHA 8
The situation you're in right now is a common one in which a primary feat chain is dependent upon a tertiary stat (i.e., INT is of third importance in the build). If INT is bumped at 4th, that means STR isn't, which essentially means that the build could have been 17,12,14,14,12,8 at 1st with an extra point leftover to turn one of the 12s into a 13, and had the same STR bonus after bumping STR at 4th.
Hmm....
Suggestion: at some point multiclass barbarian, maybe four levels, because rage will address all the deficiencies of the stats-spread-thin build: it'll up your attack-bonus and damage (especially with one-handed weapons), and increase your HP and you fort and will saves. Barbarian also has Perception as a class skill, so you'll actually have something useful to dump all your extra skill points in. Slight drawbacks (unless you save for mithril): you forfeit the +10 move if you're wearing heavy armor. (I don't consider the loss of feats when trading fighter levels for barbarian levels to be losses because barbarian rage powers come just as fast as feats and many of them are better than feats.)
Build progression:
04: figh4 INT+1, Weapon Specialization:Flail (assuming you have WF)
05: barb1 (Brutal Pugilist and Drunken Brute variants), Raging Vitality
-- You're suddenly picking up 3hp/lvl fighting. Drunken Brute variant sacrifices the +10 move you won't use anyway for two useful benefits: extending duration of rage, and move-action potion consumption. Brutal Pugilist sacrifices trap sense and uncanny dodge for a variety of bonuses to various CMB/CMD actions. I recommend using a light rather than heavy shield because you'll be constantly grabbing potions and flasks of booze with your shield hand.
06: barb2 Guarded Life
-- Never make a stabilization check ever again. Pretty useful when your "cushion" between unconsciousness and death isn't that great.
07: figh5 Weapon Training +1(+3*), FEAT
-- If you've scrimped your coppers and accumulated PA, you're able to buy Gloves of Dueling (15,000gp) by now. +3/+3 is a massive jump up in power; and you'll need if facing those tougher Tier 7-8 monsters.
08 to 11: barb3 to barb6
-- accumulate three feats and two more rage-powers.
12: figh6 FEAT
-- You have two chances for BAB11-requiring feats by delaying figh6 until 12th level. Otherwise take it earlier if you want.
End result: figh6/barb6
intelligence penalties or damage does not restrict you from using expertise since they do not actually lower the ability score. A single point of ability damage simply has no effect at all, Core Rule Book somewhere in the back.. and stuff, I do not have the page number but look it up under ability damage
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intelligence penalties or damage does not restrict you from using expertise since they do not actually lower the ability score. A single point of ability damage simply has no effect at all, Core Rule Book somewhere in the back.. and stuff, I do not have the page number but look it up under ability damage
Now that's a point worth noting... Alright, according to the PRD, ability "damage" and "penalties" don't actually lower the score (and you only even lower your modifier for every 2 points, even if the score is odd). Meanwhile, ability "drain" actually does reduce the score.
Hm, so that needs to be taken into account.
@Mike:
Regarding the shield "trick", this is why I use a buckler. Same stats as a light shield (minus the ability to shield bash, which I'm not doing anyway), but I can use my shield hand to do things like wield a bow or whip out a potion.
I don't actually have WF yet. >.>
If you take the INT bump now, you will see the benefit 9 times. If you take it at level 12, you will see it once. Either way, you have to bump INT at some point, or waste a point bumping something to an odd number. Might as well get the most bang for your INT bump, IMO.
On the other hand, if you start bumping CON now, you won't see benefit til level 8, and if you bump INT now, you won't see CON benefits til 12. I guess it depends on whether you value skill points more or HP.
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If you take the INT bump now, you will see the benefit 9 times. If you take it at level 12, you will see it once. Either way, you have to bump INT at some point, or waste a point bumping something to an odd number. Might as well get the most bang for your INT bump, IMO.
Bumping INT will give me the skill ranks retroactively, so it's really more a matter of when I want to see those ranks.
Bumping INT will give me the skill ranks retroactively, so it's really more a matter of when I want to see those ranks.
What rule have I overlooked that allows this?
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Bumping INT will give me the skill ranks retroactively, so it's really more a matter of when I want to see those ranks.What rule have I overlooked that allows this?
Core, page 555
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Same as HP for CON, PFRPG considers it retroactive. It was one of the changes that went relatively unnoticed.
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Bumping INT will give me the skill ranks retroactively, so it's really more a matter of when I want to see those ranks.What rule have I overlooked that allows this?
This one:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
From here.
Same as HP for CON, PFRPG considers it retroactive. It was one of the changes that went relatively unnoticed.
I guess so. O.o
Pardon me for being dense, but while I'm now seeing the hit dice multiplier in the CON bonus, I'm still not seeing it for the INT bonus:
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
The portion you guys have both bolded doesn't suggest anything retroactive to me. Is this something that was clarified in a FAQ or thread or something?
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Same as HP for CON, PFRPG considers it retroactive. It was one of the changes that went relatively unnoticed.I guess so. O.o
Pardon me for being dense, but while I'm now seeing the hit dice multiplier in the CON bonus, I'm still not seeing it for the INT bonus:
The portion you guys have both bolded doesn't suggest anything retroactive to me. Is this something that was clarified in a FAQ or thread or something?Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
You're looking at the text for temporary increases, not permanent.
You're looking at the text for temporary increases, not permanent.
Yes, but all I'm seeing for the permanent increases is they just make the temporary increases permanent.
I'm not trying to argue, I just don't see it here. It must have been clarified elsewhere.
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You're looking at the text for temporary increases, not permanent.
Yes, but all I'm seeing for the permanent increases is they just make the temporary increases permanent.
I'm not trying to argue, I just don't see it here. It must have been clarified elsewhere.
I don't read it as a extension of the temporary rules. But if every set of two people could read the same thing and always come to the same conclusion, there wouldn't be a need for threads.
Luckily, we fans can actually get the pros to do the interpreting for us!
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intelligence penalties or damage does not restrict you from using expertise since they do not actually lower the ability score. A single point of ability damage simply has no effect at all, Core Rule Book somewhere in the back.. and stuff, I do not have the page number but look it up under ability damage
Are you sure about that? (Love to know the page number.)
I.e., if my fighter is Enervated to a STR of 12, I shouldn't be able to Power Attack so far as I've always been aware.
-- If so, the same should be true for other stat-dependent feat chains.
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Page 555 of the CRB.
Ability Damage does not actually reduce your score but it gives penalties.
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability. For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
Ability Drain does indeed reduce your score.
"Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses."
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intelligence penalties or damage does not restrict you from using expertise since they do not actually lower the ability score. A single point of ability damage simply has no effect at all, Core Rule Book somewhere in the back.. and stuff, I do not have the page number but look it up under ability damageAre you sure about that? (Love to know the page number.)
I.e., if my fighter is Enervated to a STR of 12, I shouldn't be able to Power Attack so far as I've always been aware.
-- If so, the same should be true for other stat-dependent feat chains.
Um, Enervation is negative levels, not stats. And as you can see here, negative levels say nothing about lowering stats (only applying penalties to rolls).
And anyway, the rules were already quoted, and anyway I don't have my CRB at work so I can't give a page number.
But here's ability damage and drain:
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
As you can see, anything but ability "drain" doesn't actually modify the score in question; ability damage only gives you penalties to rolls.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
I don't read it as a extension of the temporary rules. But if every set of two people could read the same thing and always come to the same conclusion, there wouldn't be a need for threads.
Luckily, we fans can actually get the pros to do the interpreting for us!
Wow. Thanks.
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Wow. Thanks.I don't read it as a extension of the temporary rules. But if every set of two people could read the same thing and always come to the same conclusion, there wouldn't be a need for threads.
Luckily, we fans can actually get the pros to do the interpreting for us!
Nossir, thank you. Discussions like this help solidify the rules for me. I knew the change had happened, but now that you forced me to go looking, I know why the change was made. That alone justifies the search.