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Before I present my questions, I did look and search the archives for the answers but couldn't find my particular issues addressed.
(my Summoner is 14th level)
1. I have a Quadruped Eidolon with only the Bite attack, does he get iterative attacks? Does he get a second attack from Multiattack? The way I see it, it seems like he should get both and thus have +11/+6/+6/+1, but I suspect that isn't the case.
2. Given the high intelligence of an Eidolon, when (if ever) would I need to make a Ride check if mounted on it?
3. If an Eidolon with the Grab and Constrict evolutions (attached to Bite, if that matters) has grappled an opponent, do you keep applying the Constrict damage on the following rounds, or is that a one time thing? If not, what options does the Eidolon have?
Before I present my questions, I did look and search the archives for the answers but couldn't find my particular issues addressed.
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(my Summoner is 14th level)
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1. I have a Quadruped Eidolon with only the Bite attack, does he get iterative attacks? Does he get a second attack from Multiattack? The way I see it, it seems like he should get both and thus have +11/+6/+6/+1, but I suspect that isn't the case.
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2. Given the high intelligence of an Eidolon, when (if ever) would I need to make a Ride check if mounted on it?
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3. If an Eidolon with the Grab and Constrict evolutions (attached to Bite, if that matters) has grappled an opponent, do you keep applying the Constrict damage on the following rounds, or is that a one time thing? If not, what options does the Eidolon have?
1) As per the entry in the Summoner Class description for Eidolon:
BAB: This is the eidolon’s base attack bonus. An eidolon’s base attack bonus is equal to its Hit Dice. Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the
eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
2) A mounts intelligence score doesn't have any influence on the riders skill checks, at least as far as I've seen in PFRPG core books.
3) For a quad based eidolon, never. They can't use constrict ever, can't even take the ability. Assuming a serpent based eidolon, you deal the damage everytime there is a successful grapple action to do damage with the appropriate natural attack (bite). The eidolon constrict power is different than the bestiary one as it only goes off with the grab eidolon ability which is linked to a specific attack. To do constrict damage you must use the attack that grabs and succeed on another grapple check to do the constrict damage apparently. This gives you two chances to roll a 1 unfortunately and lose the grapple.
I suppose depending on the CMD of the opponent (High CMD, lower AC), it would actually be better to bite, make the grab attempt and if successful get the constrict damage, then use a free action to release the grapple. If the opponent has lower CMD and higher AC, trying to continually grapple (making two checks by RAW) might be the better choice.
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For 1 & 3, I'm sorry. Apparently I'm blind and didn't see those.
2) A mounts intelligence score doesn't have any influence on the riders skill checks, at least as far as I've seen in PFRPG core books.
I would think the "Guide with knees, Fight with a combat-trained mount, Leap, Spur mount, & Control mount in battle" options would all be irrelevant with a mount that has a greater than animal intelligence. Actually I don't know about "Spur mount", but that seems like a cruel thing to do to a sentient creature.
I would think the "Guide with knees, Fight with a combat-trained mount, Leap, Spur mount, & Control mount in battle" options would all be irrelevant with a mount that has a greater than animal intelligence. Actually I don't know about "Spur mount", but that seems like a cruel thing to do to a sentient creature.
Unless the mount can understand any language you are speaking (not familiar whether Eidolons get any language skills), you still need to make the ride checks to let the beastie know what you want it to do.
"An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages."
It's the third line of text in the Eidolon entry for the summoner.
It's a fully sentient creature, so you wouldn't need Handle Animal. The Ride skill, however, is still nice if you want to be any good at staying in the saddle.
But you'd be able to basically speak orders to it and it would be able to perform them as needed, normally. Just like if you had a cohort, or a bipedal Eidolon. Most of the Ride checks would simply be unnecessary.
For 1 & 3, I'm sorry. Apparently I'm blind and didn't see those.
2) A mounts intelligence score doesn't have any influence on the riders skill checks, at least as far as I've seen in PFRPG core books.I would think the "Guide with knees, Fight with a combat-trained mount, Leap, Spur mount, & Control mount in battle" options would all be irrelevant with a mount that has a greater than animal intelligence. Actually I don't know about "Spur mount", but that seems like a cruel thing to do to a sentient creature.
No reason to be sorry -.^b
As someone mentioned they have an intelligence and can communicate, however combat is very abstract and constantly yelling out what you want you mount to do is bad for a number of reasons. First off, everyone knows what you are going to do. "Charge that guy over there!" (Because combat makes it hard to hear, you aren't going to be quiet) Do you think he isn't going to brace for the charge? Secondly, you have a very short time to communicate, if your command takes longer to explain that 4ish seconds, guess what, neither you or the mount are doing anything for your turn as a round is only 6 seconds. Use of the ride skill covers this "non verbal" communication. Thirdly if you change your mind, its a lot faster and telling to yank the reins than try to communicate what is wrong. I can only guess you've never actually rode a horse ;)You may not need (nor would the skill work) Handle Animal, but you should still invest in the skill Riding if you are going that route. Skill points are easy to get (you can get a free one every level if needed) and if I were the DM and you were trying to skimp/get something for nothing, I'd make you pay for it. Given that a few skill points covers everything you would need to worry about (the DCs are basically all set), it is kind of silly to not put them into the skill.
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I would think the "Guide with knees, Fight with a combat-trained mount, Leap, Spur mount, & Control mount in battle" options would all be irrelevant with a mount that has a greater than animal intelligence. Actually I don't know about "Spur mount", but that seems like a cruel thing to do to a sentient creature.
Sounds like something store managers take to use on their employees.
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constantly yelling out what you want you mount to do is bad for a number of reasons.
Except the Summoner and the Eidolon have a mental link and don't need to speak to communicate. Also mental communication is always shown as being far faster than speaking, so you usually can discuss much more in a shorter span of time.
constantly yelling out what you want you mount to do is bad for a number of reasons.Except the Summoner and the Eidolon have a mental link and don't need to speak to communicate. Also mental communication is always shown as being far faster than speaking, so you usually can discuss much more in a shorter span of time.
I will grant there is a fluffed bond, but there is no indication of a mechanical rule about it. They aren't granted "telepathy", there are no rules beyond the fluff to give you what you are saying exists. The free action to give a command could be simply limited to what is available to animal companions, guard, sit, attack, etc. Balance and rule mechanic wise that is what I would expect. It doesn't say full on mind melded communication as if they were one creature acting in concert together. It says give orders, not receive input from the eidolon so the "link" might even be one way. That doesn't work especially well when trying to act in concert. If you want to go further down this line of thought, both druids and rangers have a "bond" as well with game mechanics on how it effects the handle animal skill. If using their companion as a mount they still need to roll. Riding isn't just about what you want the animal to do, it is as much you knowing what to do when on the mount. Again if you've ever ridden a horse for any amount of time in various circumstances, even if the animal is well behaved, things go sideways. I've been lucky enough to grow up in a family with several horses and some of my family ride competitively, I wouldn't even attempt some of what they do. And that is just "fancy" riding, nothing remotely close to full fledge combat (we also had a mounted sheriff in the family).
Basically, the rules say you need the skill and nothing in the summoner or eidolon say you [b]don't[/i]. If there are some rule tucked away that you are aware of, feel free to direct me to them so I can read them over. Otherwise it is wishful thinking, by RAW you need the skill.
I will grant there is a fluffed bond, but there is no indication of a mechanical rule about it. They aren't granted "telepathy", there are no rules beyond the fluff to give you what you are saying exists.constantly yelling out what you want you mount to do is bad for a number of reasons.Except the Summoner and the Eidolon have a mental link and don't need to speak to communicate. Also mental communication is always shown as being far faster than speaking, so you usually can discuss much more in a shorter span of time.
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link [which] allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time.
Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link [which] allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time.I will grant there is a fluffed bond, but there is no indication of a mechanical rule about it. They aren't granted "telepathy", there are no rules beyond the fluff to give you what you are saying exists.constantly yelling out what you want you mount to do is bad for a number of reasons.Except the Summoner and the Eidolon have a mental link and don't need to speak to communicate. Also mental communication is always shown as being far faster than speaking, so you usually can discuss much more in a shorter span of time.
Please note I read that and commented on the fact the "orders" aren't explained or clarified. It could be as limited as the orders available to the classes using handle animal. In essence being able to command the eidolon to do the handle animal specified "tricks" as a free action. Like a druid or ranger. The ability to send a command is far from telepathy, far far away from two distinct creatures acting in unison as one "will". You can "command" a creature you summon and cannot talk to as per the spell and not be able to give detailed directions, you basically give it a target and in effect say go even though they don't understand it. Nothing more is given or allowed. The description of the link doesn't mention detailed communication, doesn't say empathy or telepathy like other abilities or bonds do when that is the intent of the ability. The evolution has no rules stating you don't need the riding skill when riding your own eidolon and reference the link ability as to why it isn't necessary. You need something more concrete to ignore the general rules of the game, the fact the summoner has an ability that every other pet class does, the link which allows them to control the pet and send simple uncomplicated commands, isn't it.
So is the link between summoner and eidolon supposed to be 1-way or 2-way? If it is 1-way, then I guess that kills the scene where my summoner for no apparent reason went into the room where his eidolon had gone ahead to scout. In this case, he had gotten the mental message from her of "Hey -- This room's full of scrolls and books and stuff! Come take a look."
There's more to the ride skill than simply giving orders to your mount, it is a physical skill just like acrobatics or anything else, which is why it is dexterity based and has an armor check penalty. The intelligence of your mount is irrelevant for that purpose. In fact, the ride skill description specifically mentions griffons (Int 5) and pegasi (Int 10).
@Dreamatelier: I understand completely the intelligence difference, but that doesn't mean the link would in fact operate any differently than it would with the other classes. Just because the eidolon could understand a more complicated command doesn't mean the link ability allows for a complicated command to be sent. The link ability states you can send a command, and for pet classes the tricks are fairly well detailed under the handle animal tricks. It could very well be intended that sending the command via link "return/heel" is allowed but not "come back and grab some firewood, water for stew and a deer for dinner too." Those are two very different cases. I am going by a conservative RAW reading, the other link abilities allow for those commands be given as a free action as well. That is precedent for the ability, unless there is another area in the book detailing the ability I'm going to compare it to things that exist already, not make things up, it's why this is the Rules forum. I could very well be wrong, but until someone comes up with more detailed information or a DEV response, all I can do is compare it to other RAW abilities of the same type. This isn't a discussion about how you want it to be, it is about what the rules say, what is written in the game mechanics regardless of the fluff.
@David: Read the link ability, it says in game mechanic terms you can send a command to the eidolon as a free action. It says nothing about 2 way communication. The closest you get to that is the 2nd level Bond Senses, but you must start that and you are limited to rounds per day. Again maybe that isn't the intent but, mechanically speaking RAW is one way sending of commands from summoner to eidolon. The link ability doesn't give detailed information. You don't know where the eidolon is unless it has a way to communicate to you. It could very well be under attack and all the sudden you need to start giving it HPs cause it is low, you might know which direction you sent it, but could need to use Bonded Senses to see what is happening and hope to see a location.
@Cracked: The RAW doesn't back what you say unfortunately. Flavor text doesn't trump the game mechanic description, never has. The bladebound magus gets telepathy, it is there in the table. Do you see it anywhere in the table or description of the eidolon or summoner? The answer is "No, it isn't there." So by RAW 2 way communication doesn't seem part of the summoner/eidolon package deal.
I'm not sure where you are talking about "other classes". Nobody else has an eidolon.
If you are talking about the Druid Animal Companion (that the Ranger, Paladin and Cavalier all use for their Animal Companion), then you are talking about this Link entry:
Link (Ex): A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn't have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.
This is a completely different mechanic, intended to be primarily used with an animal.
The Eidolon is primarily a second sentient creature. You are looking at this from the perspective of a person riding their Eidolon. You have to specifically have the quadruped base form, large enough size, and pick the mount evolution.
It's more than likely that a Summoner will not be riding his Eidolon. So the Link ability for Summoners is a general ability that is intended to be used primarily for general communication, not for handling him while riding him. This ability is so that you don't even treat the Eidolon like a leadership cohort.. it's basically the same character in terms of how the player controls the creature.
If the player can control the Eidolon like a second character, then I don't see the problem with the actions described in the ride skill (and definitely not in the handle animal).
If the player can control the Eidolon like a second character, then I don't see the problem with the actions described in the ride skill (and definitely not in the handle animal).
Handle Animal specifically states that it works on Animals, and on creatures with 1 or 2 intelligence. The Eidolon is an Outsider with higher intelligence than that, so obviously you can't use Handle Animal on it. On the other hand, Ride states that it is used on any creature you are using as a mount, regardless of its intelligence or exotic nature. And as I mentioned earlier, Ride is based on the rider's physical ability to stay mounted and fight effectively as much or more than his ability to communicate with his mount. Telepathic communication and control of the mount are irrelevant to that.
I'm not sure where you are talking about "other classes". Nobody else has an eidolon.
If you are talking about the Druid Animal Companion (that the Ranger, Paladin and Cavalier all use for their Animal Companion), then you are talking about this Link entry:
Link (Ex): A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn't have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.This is a completely different mechanic, intended to be primarily used with an animal.
The Eidolon is primarily a second sentient creature. You are looking at this from the perspective of a person riding their Eidolon. You have to specifically have the quadruped base form, large enough size, and pick the mount evolution.
It's more than likely that a Summoner will not be riding his Eidolon. So the Link ability for Summoners is a general ability that is intended to be used primarily for general communication, not for handling him while riding him. This ability is so that you don't even treat the Eidolon like a leadership cohort.. it's basically the same character in terms of how the player controls the creature.
If the player can control the Eidolon like a second character, then I don't see the problem with the actions described in the ride skill (and definitely not in the handle animal).
Sentient or not, link doesn't remove the need to have a ride skill, nor does it state you get telepathy. It says you can command the sentient creature as a free action. I'm not arguing it couldn't understand a complex command. I'm saying that the link may not be as verbose as you may think it is, and that complex command may not be available if all you are relying on is the link to send it.
So yeah you invested the evo points and chose the shape to get a mount eidolon, now you can invest in the ride skill to use it as such.
You say it is primarily for communication, the rules say it is a one way command from the summoner. Guess which one I'm going to throw my hat in with...
@Moglun & Skylancer
Perhaps you guys might be confused about my mentioning the Ride skill, but I was referring the isntances mentioned by the OP:
"Guide with knees, Fight with a combat-trained mount, Leap, Spur mount, & Control mount in battle"
Those would not make sense when communicating with a sentient mount. You don't need to "guide" someone you are talking to. You don't need to use a Ride check to tell your eidolon to fight, leap, or "spur" which is a whole bag of worry, and "control".
These ride checks make no sense in the context because they are wholly about making the mount do something with a ride skill check, when all you'd need to do is communicate telepathically to this sentient creature.
Regarding just staying in the saddle, yes, the ride skill is still important, hence my first post in this thread:
"The Ride skill, however, is still nice if you want to be any good at staying in the saddle."
I apologize if I wasn't clear in my last post, but I assumed people who were reading my post had read the rest of the thread before it.
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I dunno, I'd say it would take some ride ranks to keep your balance while fighting on a mount *intelligent or otherwise*. Similarly to keep your seat while the *mount* is running as though spurred.
And who knows? It might be more effective to guide with knees than through verbal or mental communication.
Instead of "to the right, more right, too far right, there is good" you just have knee pressure until the angle is correct. It also bypasses the possibility of a dm ruling that you don't have enough free actions to communicate everything you want/need to.
I agree entirely with what Magicdealer said. For some specifics: Leap - "If you fail your Ride check, you fall off your mount when it leaps". Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount sounds from the description as though it has a lot more to do with your own ability to act normally while your mount is doing its thing than you telling it what to do. And if you could use Spur Mount without a Ride check due to your ability to communicate with it, why couldn't you Spur Companions as well by telling your allies to run faster?
That's a can of worms I don't like to open. "Spurring" sentient creatures.
It still comes down to the rules for eidolon not stating you can ignore the riding rules in any part, so you need to use those riding rules in their entirety. The rules of the game often contradict reasoning or sense. This is just another of those items. The eidolon is an intelligent mount, but it is still a mount and as such you need to make those ride checks for the appropriate actions detailed in the skill.
This is two conflicting rules, actually.
Say you want to attack with both characters.
One rule says the player can have his two characters communicate (so one character can attack and tell the other to also attack), the other says you need to use a ride check to make your mount attack.
In this situation, the Ride skill doesn't say you can't just tell the person not to, it's just giving an alternative option to making the action.
I'd personally allow the player to use either option in that situation: He could telepathically tell his eidolon to attack, or use a ride check.
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Not really. One rule doesn't invalidate the other rule.
They can communicate. Ride doesn't have a phrase that says "If you can communicate with the mount, you don't need to make ride checks."
So it doesn't matter if they can communicate or not. Ride is what it is. Two options mentioned in the Ride entry are griffon and pegasus.
A Griffon has an intelligence of 5 and can understand common.
A trained griffon can be treated as knowing every trick listed in the Handle Animal skill description. However, there are no mods to the ride skill.
A Pegasus has an intelligence of 10 and can understand common. Under the pegasus entry it says "A pegasus can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Trained pegasi are not afraid of combat, and the rider does not need to make a Ride check each round merely to control his mount."
Two examples of intelligent, unusual mounts. The griffon knows all the tricks, he doesn't get to ignore them. And for the human-level intelligence pegasus, the rider doesn't have to make the ride check to control his mount, but he DOES still have to make the ride check to fight with a combat-trained mount.
Ride still applies.