Our group of 4 players will soon start with the Kingmaker AP. So far we have a half-elf ranger with the sword & shield combat style from APG, a half-elf sorcerer with the stormborn bloodline and a cavalier who will multiclass into bard to take the battle herald prestige class. The ranger is supposed to multiclass into druid in order to take levels in the nature warden prestige class (DM's recommendation).
I decided to play a witch. Normally I would have played a cleric of either Desna or Iomedae as I almost always end up playing the cleric (in our CotCT I play a cleric of Sarenrae), but I was intrigued about playing a witch and as I heard that Kingmaker would not be too undead-heavy I decided to give it a try.
Stats, feats and skills are all set, however I still could not decide which patron to choose. I think healing is a very good choice, especially combined with the hedge witch archetype, but I am reluctant to emulate a cleric here as I want to be more the arcane caster (we have a sorcerer already, though). Ancestors and Time are the other options (Ancestors giving access to my favorite buffs such as bless, prayer, blessing of fervor etc.)
Which patrons (and their spells) would be most useful in Kingmaker? Which familiar would be appropriate?
Your advice would be gladly appreciated :-)
I don't think that your patron will be too big of a deal, no matter which one you choose. They will help decide your flavor, so that should be a big consideration. I recomend coming up with an idea for the character, and then chosing the patron that best fits. Personality and backstory help me decide where to go with class abilities.
I recommend not taking healing. Try something new. Lack of undead also means fewer things immune to mind effecting (though there will always be some, there is a nice variety). Your sorc sounds blasty, so there could be a nice gap there for you to fill in.
The wilderness nature makes things like the Animal patron more useful than normal.
Ancestors will not be as powerful, since you will have a wizard's BAB and HD and are less powerful to buff yourself. It also fills the role of buff-bot, very similar to cleric. My recomendation is always to try something new.
Non-combat takes up a decent portion of my group's time. Some of the spells in Portents have been my bane as a GM (Druid and Oracle of Lore in my group). Bringing the divinations to the table is a strong power, and often overlooked.
You have lots of choices. I recommend coming up with an idea and character you want to play, and then choosing what makes the most sense. Don't feel constrained by the rest of the party. Sometimes, double dipping on a role adds more power than making sure you have all your bases covered.
I don't think that your patron will be too big of a deal, no matter which one you choose. They will help decide your flavor, so that should be a big consideration. I recomend coming up with an idea for the character, and then chosing the patron that best fits. Personality and backstory help me decide where to go with class abilities.
I recommend not taking healing. Try something new. Lack of undead also means fewer things immune to mind effecting (though there will always be some, there is a nice variety). Your sorc sounds blasty, so there could be a nice gap there for you to fill in.
The wilderness nature makes things like the Animal patron more useful than normal.
Ancestors will not be as powerful, since you will have a wizard's BAB and HD and are less powerful to buff yourself. It also fills the role of buff-bot, very similar to cleric. My recomendation is always to try something new.
Non-combat takes up a decent portion of my group's time. Some of the spells in Portents have been my bane as a GM (Druid and Oracle of Lore in my group). Bringing the divinations to the table is a strong power, and often overlooked.
You have lots of choices. I recommend coming up with an idea and character you want to play, and then choosing what makes the most sense. Don't feel constrained by the rest of the party. Sometimes, double dipping on a role adds more power than making sure you have all your bases covered.
Thank you for bringing the Animal patron to my attention. Actually I think it fits my concept quite well. (my character is an orphan raised by a "medicine woman"/herbalist a.k.a. witch) in a small village located in southern Brevoy's Rostlands region.)
I considered taking the Charm and Feral Speech hexes before but then abandoned them because I decided in favor of other (supposedly stronger) hexes (Slumber, Healing, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle...) and even with taking Extra Hex a few times, there were was no more space for these two. With the Animal patron I can get these (or at least something similar)as bonus spells. I heard that interaction with animals would be quite common and also very useful in this AP, so now I believe it would be a great choice (although it is only rated as orange in the guide to witches). There are some nice druid spells on the Animal patron list. The SNA spells are a bit redundant as I plan to take the SM spells at the appropriate levels, but they add some more variety to what I can summon, so that's OK with me.In addition, choosing the animal patron would better link my character to the story as a whole, as Erastil has a strong presence in the Kingmaker AP.
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I don't think that your patron will be too big of a deal, no matter which one you choose. They will help decide your flavor, so that should be a big consideration. I recomend coming up with an idea for the character, and then chosing the patron that best fits. Personality and backstory help me decide where to go with class abilities.
I recommend not taking healing. Try something new. Lack of undead also means fewer things immune to mind effecting (though there will always be some, there is a nice variety). Your sorc sounds blasty, so there could be a nice gap there for you to fill in.
The wilderness nature makes things like the Animal patron more useful than normal.
Ancestors will not be as powerful, since you will have a wizard's BAB and HD and are less powerful to buff yourself. It also fills the role of buff-bot, very similar to cleric. My recomendation is always to try something new.
Non-combat takes up a decent portion of my group's time. Some of the spells in Portents have been my bane as a GM (Druid and Oracle of Lore in my group). Bringing the divinations to the table is a strong power, and often overlooked.
You have lots of choices. I recommend coming up with an idea and character you want to play, and then choosing what makes the most sense. Don't feel constrained by the rest of the party. Sometimes, double dipping on a role adds more power than making sure you have all your bases covered.
Thank you for bringing the Animal patron to my attention. Actually I think it fits my concept quite well. (my character is an orphan raised by a "medicine woman"/herbalist a.k.a. witch) in a small village located in southern Brevoy's Rostlands region.)
I considered taking the Charm and Feral Speech hexes before but then abandoned them because I decided in favor of other (supposedly stronger) hexes (Slumber, Healing, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle...) and even with taking Extra Hex a few times, there were was no more space for these two. With the Animal patron I can get...
Without getting to spoiler-y Animal makes a great patron for the beginning of the AP but rapidly falls off. Your first inclination of Time or Ancestors is much better (I would highly recommend Time personally) since it really grants a lot more favorable spells to your list.
Animal is rated low on the guide due to the spells it grants you.
Most of them spells granted to you at mid to high level either only affect regular animals (rare at this level) or change your shape into something that can't cast spells (really bad for pure casters).
Plus having a Ranger/Druid & cavalier in your party should really take care of all the animal related encounters or needs you have.
for a more aggressive pure caster Time is probably the best choice you can get.
Haste, Disintegrate, Temporal Stasis & Time Stop should be the only answer you should ever need.
Without getting to spoiler-y Animal makes a great patron for the beginning of the AP but rapidly falls off. Your first inclination of Time or Ancestors is much better (I would highly recommend Time personally) since it really grants a lot more favorable spells to your list.
Animal is rated low on the guide due to the spells it grants you.
Most of them spells granted to you at mid to high level either only affect regular animals (rare at this level) or change your shape into something that can't cast spells (really bad for pure casters).Plus having a Ranger/Druid & cavalier in your party should really take care of all the animal related encounters or needs you have.
for a more aggressive pure caster Time is probably the best choice you can get.
Haste, Disintegrate, Temporal Stasis & Time Stop should be the only answer you should ever need.
Personally, I have to disagree with you. Beast Shape is the only spell on the list that I don't really care for. The first 3 spells are awesome for non-combat, and may see use in the AP in combat. The Ranger will not be able to substitute at these levels. Summons are often worthwhile, and nature's ally IV has some nice things on the list. Animal growth will be useful on the 2 animal companions in the party. Anti-lfe Shell is an awesome defense. And Animal Shapes allows for some really neat subterfuge.
I can't say the same thing about Time. Ventriloquism isn't very good. Silence is nice. Haste will likely already be covered by the sorc. 3fold aspect is interesting but not that powerful or useful. Teleport, while useful, can usually be covered by scrolls. Expend isn't worth the action to cast, let alone the spell slot. Disintigrate is overrated, and you will have a blasty sorc casting it. Now, temporal stasis is a nice save-or-suck, but it will be the capstone instead of Time Stop, since the AP wont likely to go to 18th level. Its no secret they are designed to climax arround 17th. So in all, 2 powerful unique spells, 2 good spells likely colliding with the sorc, and 1 covered by scrolls.
Overall, I don't find it to be significantly better than Animal, and you really don't need an optimal build to make it through the adventure paths.
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Without getting to spoiler-y Animal makes a great patron for the beginning of the AP but rapidly falls off. Your first inclination of Time or Ancestors is much better (I would highly recommend Time personally) since it really grants a lot more favorable spells to your list.
Animal is rated low on the guide due to the spells it grants you.
Most of them spells granted to you at mid to high level either only affect regular animals (rare at this level) or change your shape into something that can't cast spells (really bad for pure casters).Plus having a Ranger/Druid & cavalier in your party should really take care of all the animal related encounters or needs you have.
for a more aggressive pure caster Time is probably the best choice you can get.
Haste, Disintegrate, Temporal Stasis & Time Stop should be the only answer you should ever need.
Personally, I have to disagree with you. Beast Shape is the only spell on the list that I don't really care for. The first 3 spells are awesome for non-combat, and may see use in the AP in combat. The Ranger will not be able to substitute at these levels. Summons are often worthwhile, and nature's ally IV has some nice things on the list. Animal growth will be useful on the 2 animal companions in the party. Anti-lfe Shell is an awesome defense. And Animal Shapes allows for some really neat subterfuge.
I can't say the same thing about Time. Ventriloquism isn't very good. Silence is nice. Haste will likely already be covered by the sorc. 3fold aspect is interesting but not that powerful or useful. Teleport, while useful, can usually be covered by scrolls. Expend isn't worth the action to cast, let alone the spell slot. Disintigrate is overrated, and you will have a blasty sorc casting it. Now, temporal stasis is a nice save-or-suck, but it will be the capstone instead of Time Stop, since the AP wont likely to go to 18th level. Its no secret they are designed to climax arround 17th. So in all, 2 powerful unique spells, 2 good...
Well let's take a look at the Animal Patron spell list shall we?
Charm Animal - great spell to stop an animal from attacking YOU. But since you can't speak to it the only thing this spell does is stop it from attacking the witch, not the rest of the party.
Speak with Animals - Great now you can finally use the previous spell but this is a 2nd level spell for the Witch so you have to burn 3 levels of spell to make friends with that normal animal.
Dominate Animal - now you can make that beast do whatever simple commands you want Attack, Fetch, Stay, Etc.
Now what do all of these spells have in common? They are what a Ranger can do all day without spending any resources.
With a Wild Empathy check (at will ability) they can turn any regular animal into a friend and make it do all those simple tricks and if he needs to speak to it he gets that spell at 4th level (or first when they pick up the druid class).
He can do this at 4th level with 1 spell, you can do it at 3rd level with 3 spells.
Does that sound like a worthwhile trade to you?
Summon nature’s ally IV - Do you know what's the difference between this spell and summon monster IV (which is automatically on your spell list)? summon Monster gets a Giant scorpion instead of the Lion and Griffon. The rest of the list is exactly the same.
Animal Growth - Great spell, the Ranger/Druid will love it even though he'll probably cast it himself when needed.
AntiLife Shell - Also a great spell.
Beast Shape IV - terrible spell for casters who can't cast when changed. Like you.
Animal Shapes - turn the party into a normal animal of your choice at 16th level. Take away all their class abilities, gear & spells in exchange for natural attacks. I don't think anyone in your party would benefit from this. Ever.
Everything this patron offers, you either:
1). Already have covered by the Ranger with a class ability (better then your spells ) or the actual spell.
2). You have an equivalent or better spell (summon monster line you have all of these, this patron just gives you 2 of the nature's ally line).
3). None of your party would want cast on them (you and the sorceror/bard would lose all your spells, and he'd lose his bardic powers) the cavalier would lose his mount and challenge abilities and the ranger/druid has a better shape change power then this.
Time Patron on the other hand gives you
Ventriloquism - situational but not great
Silence - The caster killer spell and massive stealth booster.
Haste - The highest DPR boosting spell in the game.
Threefold Aspect - The best self buff, caster buff disguise spell a witch can get. (You do know it gives you the benefit of a Headband of Mental Prowess +4 for free right?)
Teleport - Yes you have it on your list but this is free and automatic.
Disintegrate - Not a direct damage spell, it's a utility spell for castle sieges and regenerating monsters.
Expend - Ok, this is a stupid spell.
Temporal Stasis - Awesome situational spell but one sorceror will never take, 5000GP material component means rare to cast so no Sorceror could afford to burn one of his few spell slots on it.
Time is a much better Patron, and for you especially Animal is functionally a terrible choice. Now if you have a roleplay reason for it and don't care if you and the Ranger and the Cavalier keep duplicating each others actions then go for it.
It is a game after all.
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...Without getting to spoiler-y Animal makes a great patron for the beginning of the AP but rapidly falls off. Your first inclination of Time or Ancestors is much better (I would highly recommend Time personally) since it really grants a lot more favorable spells to your list.
Animal is rated low on the guide due to the spells it grants you.
Most of them spells granted to you at mid to high level either only affect regular animals (rare at this level) or change your shape into something that can't cast spells (really bad for pure casters).Plus having a Ranger/Druid & cavalier in your party should really take care of all the animal related encounters or needs you have.
for a more aggressive pure caster Time is probably the best choice you can get.
Haste, Disintegrate, Temporal Stasis & Time Stop should be the only answer you should ever need.
Personally, I have to disagree with you. Beast Shape is the only spell on the list that I don't really care for. The first 3 spells are awesome for non-combat, and may see use in the AP in combat. The Ranger will not be able to substitute at these levels. Summons are often worthwhile, and nature's ally IV has some nice things on the list. Animal growth will be useful on the 2 animal companions in the party. Anti-lfe Shell is an awesome defense. And Animal Shapes allows for some really neat subterfuge.
I can't say the same thing about Time. Ventriloquism isn't very good. Silence is nice. Haste will likely already be covered by the sorc. 3fold aspect is interesting but not that powerful or useful. Teleport, while useful, can usually be covered by scrolls. Expend isn't worth the action to cast, let alone the spell slot. Disintigrate is overrated, and you will have a blasty sorc casting it. Now, temporal stasis is a nice save-or-suck, but it will be the capstone instead of Time Stop, since the AP wont likely to go to 18th level. Its no secret they are designed to climax arround 17th. So in all, 2 powerful unique
Great argument and 'number' crunching Math !:-0
Have you checked out c873788's Guide to Witches yet?
Have you checked out c873788's Guide to Witches yet?
Actually this is where I get most ideas for my witch from. I based my selection of feats, skills and spells on the recommendations given there.
Thanks c873788 and Mathwei ap Niall, both of you did a really good job!
I tried to optimize my witch build, selecting only from among the blue and green options. Somehow I' afraid that the other character builds won't be that optimized (or not optimized at all). The only thing that still bothers me now is the right choice of patron, as this choice is made at first level and cannot be changed later on.
Among the blue options I already skipped the healing patron, because I want to try something new (I play a cleric and an oracle of life in another AP) and I don't want to restrict myself to the role of heal-bot.
Charm Animal - great spell to stop an animal from attacking YOU. But since you can't speak to it the only thing this spell does is stop it from attacking the witch, not the rest of the party.
Speak with Animals - Great now you can finally use the previous spell but this is a 2nd level spell for the Witch so you have to burn 3 levels of spell to make friends with that normal animal.
Dominate Animal - now you can make that beast do whatever simple commands you want Attack, Fetch, Stay, Etc.
Now what do all of these spells have in common? They are what a Ranger can do all day without spending any resources.
With a Wild Empathy check (at will ability) they can turn any regular animal into a friend and make it do all those simple tricks and if he needs to speak to it he gets that spell at 4th level (or first when they pick up the druid class).
He can do this at 4th level with 1 spell, you can do it at 3rd level with 3 spells.
Does that sound like a worthwhile trade to you?Summon nature’s ally IV - Do you know what's the difference between this spell and summon monster IV (which is automatically on your spell list)? summon Monster gets a Giant scorpion instead of the Lion and Griffon. The rest of the list is exactly the same.
Animal Growth - Great spell, the Ranger/Druid will love it even though he'll probably cast it himself when needed.
AntiLife Shell - Also a great spell.
Beast Shape IV - terrible spell for casters who can't cast when changed. Like you.
Animal Shapes - turn the party into a normal animal of your choice at 16th level. Take away all their class abilities, gear & spells in exchange for natural attacks. I don't think anyone in your party would benefit from this. Ever.
I disagree with you about stepping on the Ranger's toes. I find it is usually better to have redundancy. Charm Animal can give that ranger the minute that he needs to make a wild empathy check by immediately turning a hostile animal friendly to you, you calm it, and then the ranger makes it the parties friend. Most things do not attack the friend of their friends, and the Ranger can't do anything to unfriendly (DC20 min, while he is likely at a +1-3 bonus) or Hostile (DC25.) The roll he has to make at low levels is so rediculously high compared to his bonus that you can't even remotely rely on it. Sure, all these spells are on the ranger list. But you get them 4 levels sooner than he does, when they are more useful because the party has fewer ways of gathering information, which is the real purpose of the first 2. Speak with Animals is useful in its own right, and has no need to be accompanied by charm, just like you don't have to charm every NPC you meet. Dominate Animal is the only true combat spell of the 3.
You downgrade Summon Nature's Ally because you already get Summon Monster, but you dissmiss that arguement about Telleport.
Beast Shape isn't a total waste. Apes still have appendages to cast spells. Its also not necessarily a combat spell. Diminutive animals are unassuming and make amasing scouts. Who suspects that field mouse?
Likewise for Animal Shapes, which is even better. It allows the entire party to scout somewhere for an HOUR. Everyone can get fly 120, swim and waterbreathing, and the ability to pass through pretty much any environment like a native. Your looking at it as a combat spell, which it most certainly is not. This spell's out of combat uses are amasing, and it has more utility than most other spells of that level.
Finally there is Animal Growth. You counter by saying the Ranger will cast it. He gets at most 2 castings of it per day, if he hits 18 wis. It lasts 1 minute/level, so you will be lucky to get more than 2 combats out of it, so having multiple castings is useful. You also have 2 animal companions in this group, so there is advantage to having more there too. The witch gets it 4 levels sooner, and it uses up a smaller percentage of her resources by the time the Ranger can cast it.
Time Patron on the other hand gives you
Ventriloquism - situational but not great
Silence - The caster killer spell and massive stealth booster.
Haste - The highest DPR boosting spell in the game.
Threefold Aspect - The best self buff, caster buff disguise spell a witch can get. (You do know it gives you the benefit of a Headband of Mental Prowess +4 for free right?)
Teleport - Yes you have it on your list but this is free and automatic.
Disintegrate - Not a direct damage spell, it's a utility spell for castle sieges and regenerating monsters.
Expend - Ok, this is a stupid spell.
Temporal Stasis - Awesome situational spell but one sorceror will never take, 5000GP material component means rare to cast so no Sorceror could afford to burn one of his few spell slots on it.
Silence is an amasing spell, and will be a utility to the party
Haste is an amasing spell, but can already be covered by the other arcane caster in the party. Later it gets replaced by those who need it with boots, if they really find the need.Threefold Aspect is not very good IMO. Its a level 4 spell that does not stack with the items you will have by the time you get it. You will likely already have a +4 int item, or will get it soon. So its really a +4 wis for -2 str and dex. And its already on your spell list. Also, you wont fool everyone with your appearance, as you look very similar to your normal appearance, and if you are always casting it no one will ever be fooled. It wont ever give you bonus spells or skills, since the 1 day durration causes it to never become a permanent enhancement bonus. Doesn't seem like a winner to me.
Disintegrate - I would love to see you try to use this for utility. I disintegrate that wall. Ok 1 stone/brick/plank disintegrates, as it targets a single object. The wall is fine in most cases, unless you successfully take out a load bearing one or keystone. Siege engines it works on, but if they only have 1-2 of those, there are plenty of ways to deal with them with lower level spell slots. And here you will definetely be filling the same role as the blasting sorc.
Temporal Stasis - I missed the material component requirement. Switch it from usefull to never cast.
Overall, I'm not saying Time is a bad one at all. I just don't think it is the best one like you seem to. I see many flaws in its list, and the important spells can already be covered by this group.
Consider making sure that your patron's spells aren't on the Witch list already. I chose Endurance for myself, but that's partly because I'm a Cauldron witch--those spells can be bottled quite usefully. Well, except for Miracle... but it's Miracle.
Threefold Aspect and Teleport aren't good patron spells because they're already on the Witch list anyway--you'll be able to take them, whether you're Time or not. Temporal Stasis can be duplicated with stuff like Magic Jar and Trap the Soul, if you're clever.
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I think you've missed the point of the argument. It's not that it's you don't ever want to do what another class can do it's simply this:
You are playing an int based spell prep caster so you have to plan and conserve all your spell casting abilities. For a character to spend their finite resources duplicating something that someone else can do at will is a poor use of those resources PLUS changes the party dynamic into a game of one-upsmanship.
In this case you have a witch who is considering taking the ranger & druid spell list for themselves while they have a ranger/druid in the party.
Add to that all of the choices that we are arguing about only matter for low level play. After the players get to a certain part of the AP the need for animal focused spells/abilities goes away.
I am simply advising for this particular witch in this specific group for this specific AP that a different patron is a better choice.
Now for the spell review the first 3 spells and examples of use are pointless since the same thing can be accomplished with hexes (Sleep + Feral Speech), let the ranger burn the spell slots for them, you have better.
Nature's ally gets ignored because you don't get all of them, you specifically get 1 of the 9 versions of that spell. Teleport is teleport, you are guaranteed to take it this way it's free.
Beast shape IS a total waste, NO animal form can speak and has hands so they can't cast spells.
Animal Shape for a scouting spell ? You're going to use an 8th level spell slot for SCOUTING !?!?!?!
Are you seriously advising burning your single highest spell slot for scouting?
Animal Growth, I never said was bad but instead of using a spell that affects 2 party companions I'd rather cast haste and affect ALL of the party and let the druid/ranger focus on their own pets.
Silence is an amasing spell, and will be a utility to the party
Haste is an amasing spell, but can already be covered by the other arcane caster in the party. Later it gets replaced by those who need it with boots, if they really find the need.
Threefold Aspect is not very good IMO. Its a level 4 spell that does not stack with the items you will have by the time you get it. You will likely already have a +4 int item, or will get it soon. So its really a +4 wis for -2 str and dex. And its already on your spell list. Also, you wont fool everyone with your appearance, as you look very similar to your normal appearance, and if you are always casting it no one will ever be fooled. It wont ever give you bonus spells or skills, since the 1 day durration causes it to never become a permanent enhancement bonus. Doesn't seem like a winner to me.
Disintegrate - I would love to see you try to use this for utility. I disintegrate that wall. Ok 1 stone/brick/plank disintegrates, as it targets a single object. The wall is fine in most cases, unless you successfully take out a load bearing one or keystone. Siege engines it works on, but if they only have 1-2 of those, there are plenty of ways to deal with them with lower level spell slots. And here you will definetely be filling the same role as the blasting sorc.
Temporal Stasis - I missed the material component requirement. Switch it from usefull to never cast.
Haste is a support spell and since the arcane caster is a sorceror focused on blasting with a very limited spell selection it would be better for the witch to cast.
Threefold Aspect is the BEST spell for witches, read it again. It's a floating bonus that can be added to ANY 2 stats at will, requires a round of intense study DC 20 perception check FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOU just to recognize a resemblance to your true form and takes a True Seeing spell to pierce.
It is a MASSIVE bonus since now you don't have to spend 20 THOUSAND gold for that bonus. Buy the regular headband of Vast intellect (+6) and use this spell to take care of all your other stats, mental AND physical.
Have you actually READ the Disintegrate spell? It destroys 10 CUBIC FEET of material and is designed to be used on structures, dispels any object made of FORCE and does guaranteed damage if you decided you wanted it too.
Have you read the AP we are discussing ? It's all about castles and towns and armies and politics. All things this patron excels at handling. This is the patron that was designed for it, Animals is good for one book, maybe two at most.
I disagree with the first part. Yes, I am suggesting using your highest level spell slots on one of the best scouting/infiltrating spells in the game, and one of the only ones that moves the whole party.
Haste is a support spell and since the arcane caster is a sorceror focused on blasting with a very limited spell selection it would be better for the witch to cast.
Threefold Aspect is the BEST spell for witches, read it again. It's a floating bonus that can be added to ANY 2 stats at will, requires a round of intense study DC 20 perception check FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOU just to recognize a resemblance to your true form and takes a True Seeing spell to pierce.
It is a MASSIVE bonus since now you don't have to spend 20 THOUSAND gold for that bonus. Buy the regular headband of Vast intellect (+6) and use this spell to take care of all your other stats, mental AND physical.Have you actually READ the Disintegrate spell? It destroys 10 CUBIC FEET of material and is designed to be used on structures, dispels any object made of FORCE and does guaranteed damage if you decided you wanted it too.
Have you read the AP we are discussing ? It's all about castles and towns and armies and politics. All things this patron excels at handling. This is the patron that was designed for it, Animals is good for one book, maybe two at most.
Haste: I find the witch usually has more time sensitive abilities than a blaster. A blaster doing damage round 1 vs round 2 is less important than a witch getting a solid debuff off, like evil eye. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on whose action is better spent on Haste, and whose limmitted resources.
Threefold Aspect: DC20 perception check at lvl 7? Seriously? You consider that good? The worste players in my group have a 50/50 telling that, the best autosucceeding. A simple DC14 spellcraft check will tell people there is an arcane spell that changes your age. And given the nature of this campaign, if you are using this spell all the time it will become common knowledge since people will have to work with you every day and you only get 3 alternate appearances. Add in the only mediocre bonuses, and its not that impressive. The only thing it does for you is increase the DCs of your spells and will save, so it does not replace a permanent headband, which will also give you 4 bonus spells, 2 skills maxed, and wont drop your AC, reflex save, or carrying capacity. Its floating bonus is ok, but you are always lowering at least 1 save, and you have to choose the bonus at casting, which will likely be at the beginning of the day.
Dissintegrate works on 10 cubic feet of 1 object. A stone wall is made out of many smaller, stone objects. Things connected to the object are unaffected. This is supported by equipment being fine after a disintegration. Good luck hoping that castle wall is made out of 10 cubic foot stones, or even stones large enough for you to fit through with 1 removed. Now, caves into bedrock you can get more, sure, and with enough knowledge(engineering) you could do collateral damage, but you may not be able to get the desired effect.
I'm really currious why you think this works well for politics, towns, or anything like that. Teleport is the only spell on the list that does, IMO, because it allows you to travel faster, but we already covered how you will be taking that anyway, so its just saving you a little gold. The 1 good stealth spell is useless for espionage since it prevents you from eavesdropping. The rest are pretty generic. Every chapter has its exploration and potential infiltration though, and animal works great for that. I can think of awesome things to do with Animal in every book, and Animal lends itself to much more creative uses.
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I disagree with the first part. Yes, I am suggesting using your highest level spell slots on one of the best scouting/infiltrating spells in the game, and one of the only ones that moves the whole party.
No, the best scouting infiltration spell is Scrying or greater scrying, it does the same thing with a 10th the effort and risk and doesn't ruin anyone elses abilities to use their class skills.
Threefold Aspect: DC20 perception check at lvl 7? Seriously? You consider that good? The worste players in my group have a 50/50 telling that, the best autosucceeding. A simple DC14 spellcraft check will tell people there is an arcane spell that changes your age. And given the nature of this campaign, if you are using this spell all the time it will become common knowledge since people will have to work with you every day and you only get 3 alternate appearances. Add in the only mediocre bonuses, and its not that impressive. The only thing it does for you is increase the DCs of your spells and will save, so it does not replace a permanent headband, which will also give you 4 bonus spells, 2 skills maxed, and wont drop your AC, reflex save, or carrying capacity. Its floating bonus is ok, but you are always lowering at least 1 save, and you have to choose the bonus at casting, which will likely be at the beginning of the day.
Wrong. Read it again. It's a DC 20 check and a round of study from someone who KNOWS you well, nobody else gets to make this check. That DC 14 spellcraft check is AFTER they've cast detect magic on you to see it. If they want to burn 15 rounds doing nothing but trying to pierce that disguise go for it, I could use the time.
You can change your appearance and bonuses every round with a standard action.
And if you consider a +1 to fort and ref saves, +1 AC and your level in REAL Hit Points or +2 will saves +2 DC for all your spells/hexs a minor bonus and +4 to all int/wisdom based skill checks without burning 50,000 gold then you obviously aren't using the WBL chart.
Dissintegrate works on 10 cubic feet of 1 object. A stone wall is made out of many smaller, stone objects. Things connected to the object are unaffected. This is supported by equipment being fine after a disintegration. Good luck hoping that castle wall is made out of 10 cubic foot stones, or even stones large enough for you to fit through with 1 removed. Now, caves into bedrock you can get more, sure, and with enough knowledge(engineering) you could do collateral damage, but you may not be able to get the desired effect.
Wrong again, in 3.5 it only affected one object. In Pathfinder it affects 10 cubic feet of material. PERIOD. They removed the one object line from the spell. The equipment not being affected is the ONLY exception to this rule.
I'm really currious why you think this works well for politics, towns, or anything like that. Teleport is the only spell on the list that does, IMO, because it allows you to travel faster, but we already covered how you will be taking that anyway, so its just saving you a little gold. The 1 good stealth spell is useless for espionage since it prevents you from eavesdropping. The rest are pretty generic. Every chapter has its exploration and potential infiltration though, and animal works great for that. I can think of awesome things to do with Animal in every book, and Animal lends itself to much more creative uses.
Ventriloquism allows you to manipulate crowds and drop information mysteriously
Silence kills casters and destroys chain of command giving orders on battlefieldsHaste affects GROUPS of your soldiers making them a force to be feared, Disintegrate destroys everything and if you use it on a building it costs Build points to fix it
Temporal Stasis is a single target I win spell with a nasty DC.
And since I have completed running this AP and know what's coming I feel confident in saying Animal is a bad choice.
Pick something else.
You could go as a witch of Desna :) Kind of like the Cleric or Witch in the first Pathfinder novel. She is a good patron for Druids, Clerics, Travelers, Elves and Dreamers... Esp if you can read the writeup on her from the early Pathfinder adventure paths.
No, the best scouting infiltration spell is Scrying or greater scrying, it does the same thing with a 10th the effort and risk and doesn't ruin anyone elses abilities to use their class skills.
When I see scrying actually produce useful, reliable results I will let you know. It targets a person, is easily spotted (alerting your target), can be saved against (alerting your targget), has specific resistances, and is limmitted to a 10ft radius.
Wrong. Read it again. It's a DC 20 check and a round of study from someone who KNOWS you well, nobody else gets to make this check. That DC 14 spellcraft check is AFTER they've cast detect magic on you to see it. If they want to burn 15 rounds doing nothing but trying to pierce that disguise go for it, I could use the time.
You can change your appearance and bonuses every round with a standard action.
And if you consider a +1 to fort and ref saves, +1 AC and your level in REAL Hit Points or +2 will saves +2 DC for all your spells/hexs a minor bonus and +4 to all int/wisdom based skill checks without burning 50,000 gold then you obviously aren't using the WBL chart.
1. If you are constantly interacting with people in the same disguise, they will learn to identify those disguises. If you are not hiding your identity, those appearances will become known as you. For this AP, you can't hide your identity all the time and still get the councilor bonus.
2. It only requires a detect magic to identify if it is cast on you currently. No detect magic is needed to know that you could be under the spell.3. I missed that you can change the bonuses as a standard action. You can change your appearance every round if you want. But you must cycle between 3 choices, and those 3 choices will look the same every time. They are always the idealized appearance of you at that age.
4. You go on about the bonuses that you get, but keep forgetting that with every choice there is a tradeoff and associated penalty.
5. I am not saying that it is being replaced by a 40K item. I am saying it is being replaced by a 16K item, which is well withing wbl at level 8 when you get the spell. I am saying that you will have a headband for the better bonuses, so all you get out of it is the wisdom bonus, which is not that valueable.
Wrong again, in 3.5 it only affected one object. In Pathfinder it affects 10 cubic feet of material. PERIOD. They removed the one object line from the spell. The equipment not being affected is the ONLY exception to this rule.
It is still a ray spell. It must target a single object, and thus only affects said object.
Ventriloquism allows you to manipulate crowds and drop information mysteriously
Silence kills casters and destroys chain of command giving orders on battlefields
Haste affects GROUPS of your soldiers making them a force to be feared, Disintegrate destroys everything and if you use it on a building it costs Build points to fix it
Temporal Stasis is a single target I win spell with a nasty DC.
Ventriloquism can easily be replaced by a dozen other spells.
Silence: any army without a nonverbal method of communication, or a way to get rid of a second level spell, deserves to be beaten (that was one purpose of banners) It can be nice in many of the fights, but wont dominate more than any other spell.Haste doesn't affect enough targets to make a huge difference in a large battle. It mostly just hits the PCs.
Disintegrate - see above
Temporal Stasis we agree on, but it has a costly material component. You may cast it once all AP, and hope they don't save
And since I have completed running this AP and know what's coming I feel confident in saying Animal is a bad choice.
I have not finished yet, but all I can guess is that our groups are going very different paths.
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Ummm, I think some posters have gotten to the point where you're
not actually being helpful to the OP...
Wanna create a new one to hash it out between you...?
Oh I'm pretty much done with it, it's kind of pointless to continue debating with someone if the refuse to read the actual spells that we are talking about.
Overall I stand by my recommendation for the OP, pick a different patron, you will be unhappy with Animal, it has next to no use after a5th-6th level.
have you considered elements as a patron, i know their will be overlap with sorcerer but weather spells are always fun (stormborn is actually my favorite bloodline,followed by shadow)
spiders as a familiar for witches have really grown on me recently also, or toads.
have you considered elements as a patron, i know their will be overlap with sorcerer but weather spells are always fun (stormborn is actually my favorite bloodline,followed by shadow)
spiders as a familiar for witches have really grown on me recently also, or toads.
I think elements could be a strong patron, but as Mathwei pointed out it would be very feat-intensive to make it really effective. I just don't have enough feats left to take Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration in order to make blasting worthwhile.
In addition we have got a Stormborn sorcerer in our group already, and blasting will definitely be his part, not mine.
Thank you all for your advice. Our Kingmaker campaign will start on Saturday. Just wanted to tell you that I finally chose Ancestors as patron for my witch. I think it is definitely one of the stronger patrons (probably among the TOP 5) and offers many of my favorite cleric spells which will hopefully fit my concept of buffing quite nice.
I realise that I'm a bit late replying to this as you've already started your game but I enjoyed reading this thread and the 'patrons battle' and wanted to contribute. I've been playing a witch in the Kingmaker campaign and have just reached level 12 and the start of the penultimate chapter.
My witch ended up with the Occult patron list and to be honest my experience of the class has been that it doesn't actually make a huge amount of difference which patron list you chose other than for flavour. All the Patron lists will have spells that could be useful or useless at various points in the campaign so I picked a list that fitted my patron instead.
With regards to your choice of hexes, if you think Feral Speech fits the character go with it. I took that feat (mostly because it fitted with the character concept) and have found it very useful and flavoursome. In gameplay I have found the reality of the witch is that if I don't spend every round Slumber hexing everyone the rest of the party are disappointed (and its use can be pivotal in most battles). Hexes like Misfortune end up being rarely used as you spend each round putting people to sleep and often I don't even get to cast a single spell (not that my witch minds as she's bone-idle). For when you meet opponents immune to mind-effecting abilities Fortune or Healing comes in useful as you can help your comrades out instead or you finally get a chance to use some spells! I have found Evil Eye a useful hex too. I wouldn't bother with Misfortune again because I have found the Ill-Omen spell works just as well and doesn't take up a precious hex slot.
Finally my last tip for playing a successful witch in this (or maybe any) game is Use Magic Device and wands. The witch spell list can be quite limited and I think the witch is almost intended to make use of the skill to bolster her spell selection through trinkets and fetishes and wands. Also, those low level spells I wanted from other Patron lists I got as wands or scrolls and stocked up on a couple of wizard spells I wanted for flavour or utility to cover any gaps left by the rest of the party.
Hope this might help with your hex selection and I hope you enjoy playing your witch as much as I am!
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I realise that I'm a bit late replying to this as you've already started your game but I enjoyed reading this thread and the 'patrons battle' and wanted to contribute. I've been playing a witch in the Kingmaker campaign and have just reached level 12 and the start of the penultimate chapter.
My witch ended up with the Occult patron list and to be honest my experience of the class has been that it doesn't actually make a huge amount of difference which patron list you chose other than for flavour. All the Patron lists will have spells that could be useful or useless at various points in the campaign so I picked a list that fitted my patron instead.
With regards to your choice of hexes, if you think Feral Speech fits the character go with it. I took that feat (mostly because it fitted with the character concept) and have found it very useful and flavoursome. In gameplay I have found the reality of the witch is that if I don't spend every round Slumber hexing everyone the rest of the party are disappointed (and its use can be pivotal in most battles). Hexes like Misfortune end up being rarely used as you spend each round putting people to sleep and often I don't even get to cast a single spell (not that my witch minds as she's bone-idle). For when you meet opponents immune to mind-effecting abilities Fortune or Healing comes in useful as you can help your comrades out instead or you finally get a chance to use some spells! I have found Evil Eye a useful hex too. I wouldn't bother with Misfortune again because I have found the Ill-Omen spell works just as well and doesn't take up a precious hex slot.I have a new player that wants to make a witch so this thread and especially your advice wolf is appreciated.
Finally my last tip for playing a successful witch in this (or maybe any) game is Use Magic Device and wands. The witch spell list can be quite limited and I think the witch is almost intended to make use of the skill to bolster her spell selection through trinkets and fetishes and wands. Also, those low level spells I wanted from other Patron lists I got as wands or scrolls and stocked up on a couple of wizard...