This may have been covered somewhere else, but the search didn't turn up anything useful on the subject.
When a Summoner is dominated and told to kill the party is his Eidolon forced to attack his master's companions when he is commanded to do so by the Summoner? Or can the Eidolon resist the order and attempt to subdue his Summoner master?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This may have been covered somewhere else, but the search didn't turn up anything useful on the subject.
When a Summoner is dominated and told to kill the party is his Eidolon forced to attack his master's companions when he is commanded to do so by the Summoner? Or can the Eidolon resist the order and attempt to subdue his Summoner master?
I can't think of any reason why the eidolon wouldn't continue to serve his master's every whim.
Being told to murder the party wouldn't even rank among the top ten stupid, ill-concieved, or flatly suicidal things the eidolon in the game I'm running has been forced to do by his summoner. I didn't stop any of those things, so I'd pretty much let the domination by proxy stand. :P
I can't think of any reason why the eidolon wouldn't continue to serve his master's every whim.
Being told to murder the party wouldn't even rank among the top ten stupid, ill-concieved, or flatly suicidal things the eidolon in the game I'm running has been forced to do by his summoner. I didn't stop any of those things, so I'd pretty much let the domination by proxy stand. :P
Well said, sir. Well said.
Greg
No, it is not the master of its own fate. Its will is what ever the summoner tells it to do.
Them are the brakes, it would attack the party if its master told it to.
That depends on the eidolon and how smart/stupid it is...
In our kingmaker game my summoner has an eidolon that beliefs i am the only one that can free him out of his demi plan of earth. He always gets mad when i send him away to summon some kind of monster. He thinks if i get killed he is trapped for ever. It is loyal to me but he would never do anything that brings me in direct danger.
If i would order him to kill the other party members for no reason, he would question those order and finally would come to the conclusion that something is obviously wrong. He then would try his best to prevent greater harm to me worning the other players or he would try to graple me just to stop the harmfull events going on...
Nowhere in the book it's written that the eidolon is a mindless automate that follows every order without questioning. So eidolons are handeled like special NPC in our games (gamemaster roleplay eidolon/ player decide eidolon actions in combat). I am quite happy with this GM interpretation of the rules.
Of course there are other summoners that have eidolons that would never question a summoners orders and that would slavishly execute the party kill order.
So my answer on the question is this is a roleplay/GM decision. That depends on how the eidolon was handeled before this event.
Breiti
|
You have to look at what dominate does...it establishes a telepathic link and controls the target's physical actions. It does not control the target's mental activities, as noted by the way the target resists the control.
The summoner and eidolon are linked by a separate telepathic bond, through which the summoner can send separate commands to the eidolon (such as 'I am being dominated, knock me unconscious').
|
You have to look at what dominate does...it establishes a telepathic link and controls the target's physical actions. It does not control the target's mental activities, as noted by the way the target resists the control.
The summoner and eidolon are linked by a separate telepathic bond, through which the summoner can send separate commands to the eidolon (such as 'I am being dominated, knock me unconscious').
There is a lot of good discussion to be had on this topic, but I do have to say that if one of my players tried to use the above on me, I would ask that they justify that comment from somewhere in the book because I'm quite skeptical of this at first glance.
There is a lot of good discussion to be had on this topic, but I do have to say that if one of my players tried to use the above on me, I would ask that they justify that comment from somewhere in the book because I'm quite skeptical of this at first glance.
its not a bad interpretation of what dominate person does, but yes there is a bit of room for dm interpretation.
You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject's mind.
You don't appear to be changing their thought processes at all (unlike charm person): you just control their actions.
At the very least the edilion can tell that there's something wrong with the summoner with a dc 15 sense motive check, and should probably have a hefty circumstance bonus for, you know, sharing a part of each other and all.
What the edilion does probably depends on how smart it is, whether or not it has any ranks in spellcraft... and whether or not the party has treated them like a person rather than a class feature. Oddly enough i don't see anything in the summoner description that lets it FORCE its edilion to do anything, so if the edilion likes the party fighter it can tell the summoner "ermm.. no.. YOU tackle him"
You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject's mind.
You don't appear to be changing their thought processes at all (unlike charm person): you just control their actions.
Commanding the eidolon seems like an action to me.
Basically I think you need to be consistent:
Either:
1) The Eidolon has free will and it will, for example, likely refuse to do things that are suicidal, or
2) The eidolon has no free will, and it does whatever the summoner wants.
It doesn't get to be (2), up until the summoner is dominated and then (1).
Basically I think you need to be consistent:
-I don't see the inconsistency here.
Either:
1) The Eidolon has free will and it will, for example, likely refuse to do things that are suicidal, or
-Most animal companions/familiars get run that way, i don't see why the edilion would be that much different. An Edilion might be willing to be a bit more suicidal because it knows its going to reform in 24 hours. So "go throw yourself in that vat of acid for my amusement"= hell no while "SOMEONE needs to hold off the dragon for a bit... and you're easier to bring back than we are= hmmm..ok but you owe me.
2) The eidolon has no free will, and it does whatever the summoner wants.
One of issues here is whether or not the summoner's telepathic bond could let the edilion know what the summoner REALLY wants while the dominator is making him say "Kill the fighter!" . Its not an action so much as it is a thought to mentally scream "HEEEEELP! He's dominated me!"
A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time.
but as i said, while i think thats A valid interpretation i don't think its the only one. I don't see anything that indicates that the Edilion os a thrall or doesn't have free will to act against the summoners commands.
This may have been covered somewhere else, but the search didn't turn up anything useful on the subject.
When a Summoner is dominated and told to kill the party is his Eidolon forced to attack his master's companions when he is commanded to do so by the Summoner? Or can the Eidolon resist the order and attempt to subdue his Summoner master?
This is more of a playstyle issue than a rules issue to me.
If your group feels like the Eidolon is its own entity then it should be able to choose freely, and since it is a being from somewhere else I would let it work that way in my games.If you see it as a class feature no different than a spell then it will do what you say without question.
I remember being in a debate a while back about what an animal companion would do if a druid was dominated. I can't find the link, but many agreed that if the animal companion considered the party as friends it might not attack them or it may hesitate even if it does give in to the commands.
"Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time."
Summon Monster "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
Vampire "Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush a humanoid opponent's will as a standard action. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire's influence, as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th)"
Dominate Person
If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.
So, I belive that the Eidolon will be forced to attack the other party members, but will start screaming that something is wrong with the Boss (Until it is told to shut up, via the mental link). It is also very dependant upon how the Eidolon has been played in the past, as to what the Eidolon will do and say.
Eidolon ** spoiler omitted **
Summon Monster "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
Vampire "Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush a humanoid opponent's will as a standard action. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire's influence, as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th)"
Dominate Person ** spoiler omitted **...
I think the "treated as summoned creatures" part was with reference to living and dying and bypassing protection from evil. I am also sure the devs did not think of this situation for an Eidolon or AC. I think RAW you are correct, but RAI it is a group decision. I would discuss it with my group instead of coming to the forum for this situation.
So... Popular consensus is to decide it with the group more or less when the Summoner is made then? Which I take it would mean that if the group decided the Eidolon was its own "person", then it would be run similar to an NPC by the GM giving it a chance to realize something was wrong and disobey its master. If however, it is merely the Summoner's b*%th, then it does what its told OR does what its told while seeking help to stop his Dominated master.
So... Popular consensus is to decide it with the group more or less when the Summoner is made then? Which I take it would mean that if the group decided the Eidolon was its own "person", then it would be run similar to an NPC by the GM giving it a chance to realize something was wrong and disobey its master. If however, it is merely the Summoner's b*%th, then it does what its told OR does what its told while seeking help to stop his Dominated master.
Yep. That is how I would do it. I would just let the group know that the rule will always apply so they can't pick the rule they want for this game, and try to argue against it later on.
DP doesn't only control the body while leaving the mind completely under the target's control. Otherwise the target could take purely mental actions, like using SLA's, of his own volition.
It would make even less sense to suggest that the dominating entity could not activate mental abilities because "he controls the body, not the mind."
If a dominated character shares a telepathic link with another creature, the dominating entity can force the character to "speak" using that link, or forbid him to "speak" just as the dominating entity can force him to speak, or not, normally.
If an eidolon can make a sense motive check to question a dominated summoner's commands, it could similarly stop to question any command it doesn't understand, or thinks doesn't make sense.
|
|
DP doesn't only control the body while leaving the mind completely under the target's control. Otherwise the target could take purely mental actions, like using SLA's, of his own volition.
It would make even less sense to suggest that the dominating entity could not activate mental abilities because "he controls the body, not the mind."If a dominated character shares a telepathic link with another creature, the dominating entity can force the character to "speak" using that link, or forbid him to "speak" just as the dominating entity can force him to speak, or not, normally.
How does the dominating creature/caster know what the target's mental abilities are to tell him to use them?
|
A Metagame look:
The Eidolon is part of the Summoner; it has no XP value, no CR of its own. So it's just like the Animal Companion, Familiar and Summoned Creatures
Animal Companions and Familiars do whatever "Master" says but won't do anything suicidal; when they die, they're dead.
Summoned creatures, on the other hand, do whatever "Master" says including suicidal stuff because when they die, they just go back to their native Plane.
So, is the Eidolon more like a Familiar or more like a Summoned creature, metagame-wise?
I think it's more like a Summoned creature and will do whatever "Master" says no matter what, even when "Master" is Dominated.
Look at it this way: when you Dominate a Fighter, you got him. When you Dominate a Summoner, the same thing should happen, you get the whole character, including the Eidolon.
(Though, if one of your Evolutions is extra Skill Points and the Eidolon gets Sense Motive and is smarter than the average eidolon, I'd certainly give the Eidolon a Sense Motive check, probably with a +2 bonus because of their shared Link.)
Those who say the eidolon can be so easily enslaved by proxy are ignoring the obvious intent of the rules.
Why would the eidolon even have devotion if it can be COMPLETELY IGNORED by targeting the summoner? That doesn't make any sense!
If it was as some people say, the developers wouldn't have bothered giving eidolons the devotion ability.
Those who say the eidolon can be so easily enslaved by proxy are ignoring the obvious intent of the rules.
Why would the eidolon even have devotion if it can be COMPLETELY IGNORED by targeting the summoner? That doesn't make any sense!
If it was as some people say, the developers wouldn't have bothered giving eidolons the devotion ability.
because eidolons are usually lower will saves than summoners maybe?
Greg
|
I fall into the camp of believing the eidolon does what its master says, regardless.
My impression is the summoner's eidolon is so intimately bound to him (being what I consider to be an apotheosis of planar energies formed out of the summoner's efforts) that if the summoner's will is controlled, that by extension controls the eidolon by controlling how the summoner commands him.
Not that the summoner would order the eidolon to attack his allies, mind you. But if a bad guy knows the summoner is a significant contributor to a fight via his eidolon, dominating the summoner is certainly a way to handle that problem.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
It comes down to something very simple.
The Eidolon has free will or it does not. If it does have free will it should come up in play more then once, and not just when its an advantage for the summoner. If it does not have free will it will do what it is commanded to do, even if it hates what the command is.
I fall into the camp of believing the eidolon does what its master says, regardless.
My impression is the summoner's eidolon is so intimately bound to him (being what I consider to be an apotheosis of planar energies formed out of the summoner's efforts) that if the summoner's will is controlled, that by extension controls the eidolon by controlling how the summoner commands him.
Not that the summoner would order the eidolon to attack his allies, mind you. But if a bad guy knows the summoner is a significant contributor to a fight via his eidolon, dominating the summoner is certainly a way to handle that problem.
Nothing says the summoner controls the eidolon though, and the fact that it existed before being contacted makes it its own being. For the purpose of ease of gameplay the player gets to tell it what to do, but from an in-world point of view I see no evidence that the eidolon turns into a puppet.
It comes down to something very simple.
The Eidolon has free will or it does not. If it does have free will it should come up in play more then once, and not just when its an advantage for the summoner. If it does not have free will it will do what it is commanded to do, even if it hates what the command is.
I agree with this. If the eidolon has no free will then it should not be able to make tactical decisions on its own, and if I can knock the summoner out, such as through a sleep spell then I don't want the eidolon to suddenly start making decisions.
The idea that something can have free will, but not be able to resist commands just makes no sense to me.
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
This is an interesting point that hasn't really been touched upon in the discussions of Summoner's that I've seen. You're not ACTUALLY summoning the Outsider you made contact with, you're summoning an Aspect of it.
Personally I think that point needs a lot of clarification because depending on what the designers mean by "aspect" of an Outsider it could affect a lot of things. Because it sounds like the summoner is using his magic to create a magical ECHO of the outsider he's bound too. Which implies why the Eidolon has so many exceptions to the normal summon rules. Because the Eidolon that the summoner utilizes isn't ACTUALLY an outsider, its a magical construct mimicking the outsider.
My friends joked about the Summoner summoning up "imaginary friends" and if the Eidolon is just an "Aspect" of an outsider that the Summoner can warp and reshape at will then that argues it is a lot like an imaginary friend.
If that's the case then I'd say dominate the Summoner and you dominate the Eidolon, after all, you can simply command the summoner to go to sleep and the Eidolon is automatically dismissed anyway.
I agree with this. If the eidolon has no free will then it should not be able to make tactical decisions on its own, and if I can knock the summoner out, such as through a sleep spell then I don't want the eidolon to suddenly start making decisions.
The idea that something can have free will, but not be able to resist commands just makes no sense to me.
If you knock the Eidolon out through a sleep spell it's automatically banished back to wherever it was summoned from. It can ONLY exist in this plane if the Summoner is awake and conscious.
If you knock the Eidolon out through a sleep spell it's automatically banished back to wherever it was summoned from. It can ONLY exist in this plane if the Summoner is awake and conscious.
I agree with this. If the eidolon has no free will then it should not be able to make tactical decisions on its own, and if I can knock the summoner out, such as through a sleep spell then I don't want the eidolon to suddenly start making decisions.
The idea that something can have free will, but not be able to resist commands just makes no sense to me.
Fair enough. Then the summoner is constrained from giving advice. Maybe he is affected by a confusion spell.
because eidolons are usually lower will saves than summoners maybe?
+1.
Or, as I've seen happen in play more often than not, the would-be dominator has line of effect to the eidolon but not the summoner.
there is a feat that allows the eidolon to remain around while the summoner is unconscious. Resilient eidolon.
So I wonder what the purpose of that feat would be if the eidolon just stood still and didn't make decisions. The benefit would be only that if they get you conscious again that the eidolon would not need to be resummoned but is that the only benefit of such a feat?
It would be in how well he likes his master. It is not mindless, but is bound to someone elses control. If he was given an order before his master went out he would fallow it, but if it is a mistreated eidolon ...well, I would not be taking that feat then.
So I wonder what the purpose of that feat would be if the eidolon just stood still and didn't make decisions.
It doesn't need to have complete freedom of agency in order to continue to follow whatever commands the summoner had given it before becoming unconscious. It's fighting an ice devil when the summoner gets KO'd? It keeps fighting that ice devil, and can do so without needing free will in the truest sense.
A dominated Synthesist will do whatever the dominating entity tells him, and use the abilities of his eidolon to do it.
IIRC the Sythesist is nothing but a summoner with Eidolon clothes on so tell me how this relates to anything else?
Since when has dominating a character with a pet ever dominated the pet? This does not happen in any other class with a pet; why would it happen with Summoners? You're complaining about Summoners being exceptions, but you're the one making the exception.
Because unlike the other "pets" the edilon is a creature under total control from its master. The other class do not control their pets, not really, the pets just like and hang around them and can be trained.
Its not a pet, its a summoned servant.
IIRC the Sythesist is nothing but a summoner with Eidolon clothes on so tell me how this relates to anything else?
A dominated Synthesist will do whatever the dominating entity tells him, and use the abilities of his eidolon to do it.In the instance of a synthesist, we have a clear cut answer as to whether or not the eidolon would be controllable by the someone dominating the summoner (this answer being yes, similar to how a dominated fighter would use his magic weapons and armor to attack the rest of his party).
It seems to me that it is fundamentally easier to extrapolate outwards to the general class, that this answer would be the same answer for every summoner and their eidolon, than to invent yet another exception to the rules which would be different for the summoner than everyone else, and simultaneously be different between one archetype of the class and the others.
A sword is not a living entity, and that still does not answer my question about what a dominatinating entity has to do with your last statement. My reading of the synthesis is that the summoner gets eidolon powers, but the eidolon in that case does not get any mental attributes since it is effectively a suit of armor.
Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. Instead of appearing as a separate creature next to the summoner, the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his eidolon. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
Now obviously this would not need to be stated if that was always the case and if you read the entire entry the eidolon has no control of itself when it is fused, which further supports that this is a bad analogy, and it is the exception to the rule already.
If the exception to the rule is that the Eidolon loses control of itself then the normal rule must be that it normally makes its own decisions.
Since when has dominating a character with a pet ever dominated the pet? This does not happen in any other class with a pet; why would it happen with Summoners? You're complaining about Summoners being exceptions, but you're the one making the exception.
Because unlike the other "pets" the edilon is a creature under total control from its master. The other class do not control their pets, not really, the pets just like and hang around them and can be trained.
Its not a pet, its a summoned servant.
I dinnae buy the total control aspect. There are enough 'exceptions' in the similarities between a summoned creature and an eidolon that it is a separate entity. If you do not speak ignan (sp?), you could not 'direct' a fire elemental to attack any specific creature, so it will go its merry flaming way. Why not the more unique/intelligent/skilled eidelon?
Look at dominance spells. They affect only one creature and, until Dom Monster, an outsider is unaffected (not quite two strikes against the spell affecting the summoner...) First, if you want the target to go against its nature, it would get a second save. Arguably it is the eidelon's nature to listen to commands of the summoner, but for the summoner to attack his friends would be against his nature. Second, putting an eidolon into a 'self destructive' mode (such as attacking the party) would not be carried out.
Also an intelligent sword of good alignment would not willingly attack the fighter's party.
Nothing says the summoner controls the eidolon though, and the fact that it existed before being contacted makes it its own being. For the purpose of ease of gameplay the player gets to tell it what to do, but from an in-world point of view I see no evidence that the eidolon turns into a puppet..Actually the Eidolon is not a creature in it's own right but an aspect of a greater creature created by the initial contact the sorcerer makes with this undefined meta-being.
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature.
That said the eidolon does have it's own Intelligence and intitiative score. So to some extent it does have the power to guide itself.
I don't think they mean "aspect" as in part of a larger entity, but more like "aspect" as in the eidolon is an everchaning creature which will have many "aspects" over your adventuring career, but it still considered the same creature.
Therefore, I submit to you that eidolons DO have free will (or at least as much as intelligent familiars, animal companions, and mounts) and are not part of the summoner, but are instead a distinct and separate creature (though there is a bonded link, obviously).
Just to point out... but if people are all leaning towards the Eidolon having free will (and it's not an illogical conclusion. The Rival's Guide lists an Eidolon with its own CR rating and gives it a backstory as if it were another member of the NPC party) then the DM should have some say in determining the Eidolon's personality and decision making. While they point out that the Eidolon always has the same alignment as the Summoner, so it's a lot like a Cohort from the Leadership feat. Given that it's as dumb as a box of rocks and has a crud charisma to boot, the DM could have a lot of fun regularly expressing the Eidolon's free will.
One thing that bothers me in a game I play in regularly is that there's a summoner (who is NOT a good gamer, which just makes it worse) who made a canine Eidolon, he calls it "Puppy" and just treats the thing as a glorified super-dog-mount. It does have an Intelligence of 7...I mean, that's smart enough to theoretically be a dumb commoner.
It does have an Intelligence of 7...I mean, that's smart enough to theoretically be a dumb commoner.
Or graduate summa cum laude from fighter college.
Just to point out... but if people are all leaning towards the Eidolon having free will (and it's not an illogical conclusion. The Rival's Guide lists an Eidolon with its own CR rating and gives it a backstory as if it were another member of the NPC party) then the DM should have some say in determining the Eidolon's personality and decision making. While they point out that the Eidolon always has the same alignment as the Summoner, so it's a lot like a Cohort from the Leadership feat. Given that it's as dumb as a box of rocks and has a crud charisma to boot, the DM could have a lot of fun regularly expressing the Eidolon's free will.
One thing that bothers me in a game I play in regularly is that there's a summoner (who is NOT a good gamer, which just makes it worse) who made a canine Eidolon, he calls it "Puppy" and just treats the thing as a glorified super-dog-mount. It does have an Intelligence of 7...I mean, that's smart enough to theoretically be a dumb commoner.
I don't mess with player controlled NPC's unless things get out of hand. I think the game is better that way, and it is one less thing I have to deal with as a GM. I always tell my players familiars, animal companions, and similar NPC's expect to be treated nicely. If they are not then bad things may happen.
|
|
I don't think any of this logic will really be helpful -- for metagame reasons it should be playtested a bit more and if, once we see what happens a few times both ways, does it seem to screw the Summoner too much (so he's less of a Class than a Sorcerer) or does having an independent Eidolon make the Summoner even more (too) powerful.
Then, based on metagame logic, make your ruling on whether or not the Eidolon gets a separate Will Save or auto fails or auto succeeds when the Summoner fails.