Point Blank Master and Gang Up


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

"Does the Gang Up feat from the Advanced Player's Guide (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)"
((I can't remember which thread I got the quote from))

If you have the Point Blank Master feat from the Advanced Player's Guide (page 167), which allows you to make attacks while still being threatened, can you then flank with a ranged weapon?


I cant find anything that says you dont threaten with a ranged weapon though i'm not sure you can. If you can then yes you can threaten with a ranged weapon thouh the way i read the feat you techniclly flank them where ever you are so until a ruling i would go with a GM call.


Lady of Dorkness wrote:
If you have the Point Blank Master feat from the Advanced Player's Guide (page 167), which allows you to make attacks while still being threatened, can you then flank with a ranged weapon?

Nope. Point Blank Master means you don't provoke for firing the selected ranged weapon. It does not grant you the ability to make melee attacks with it. (Other than as normal, improvised weapon rules)

Talonhawke wrote:
I cant find anything that says you dont threaten with a ranged weapon though i'm not sure you can.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack

Melee attack, not ranged. You do not threaten with ranged weapons.


Squares you can make a melee attack into doesn't specify that the weapon held has to be melee weapon.

mostly playing devil advocate here i would agree with you on the threatened squares though for real fun be a zen archer that fixes that part of the equation.


A spiked guantlet or spiked armor will solve this issue very neatly.


Talonhawke wrote:
Squares you can make a melee attack into doesn't specify that the weapon held has to be melee weapon.

Are you talking about using the ranged weapon as an improvised weapon? Even if that's allowed, you're not going to fire the weapon normally, you'll use it with non-proficiency penalties and reduced damage.

So technically, you could flank, and get sneak attack, but you could do that anyway with an arrow or rock or whatever.

If the OP wants to flank with a ranged weapon and USE it as a ranged weapon, he can't.


Gang up does not state you have to be threatening your opponent, it says at least 2 of your allies need to be threatening. It also says you count as flanking, it does not say you count as flanking when making melee attacks... all together by RAW, gang up allows someone to count as flanking while attacking from range, though that may not be RAI. Remember specific overrides general.... while you generally have to be in melee to be considered flanking, this ability does not require you to be to be counted as flanking. Point blank master doesn't matter in this case.


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Stubs McKenzie wrote:
It also says you count as flanking, it does not say you count as flanking when making melee attacks...

You only get a flanking bonus when making a melee attack. The OP quoted the FAQ that says so.


If you can sneak attack from 30' away, and you can sneak attack when flanking, would you get to sneak attack when using Gang Up? Even if you don't get the flanking bonus?


My apologies, I missed that.


Jeff1964 wrote:
If you can sneak attack from 30' away, and you can sneak attack when flanking, would you get to sneak attack when using Gang Up? Even if you don't get the flanking bonus?

I think that's covered by "since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat."


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You don't "count for flanking" only for melee attacks. Gang up specifically lets you exploit weaknesses that your allies open up by having two of them threatening an opponent. You would not get the +2 bonus to your attacks as that specifies melee attacks.

You can still make sneak attacks with a ranged weapon in this manner. Without Precise Shot however you will take a -4 attack penalty as you will be firing into a melee combat.

It is however possible to have a valid ranged Rogue/Assassin/Ninja/Etc in this regard.

At least, that is how we've ruled it in our games.

Sovereign Court

Flanking wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

You can also look at the FAQ ruling from Jason Bulmahn that's on the Advanced Players Guide's page.

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10 wrote:


Does the Gang Up feat from the Advanced Player's Guide (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?

The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)

Just so your totally aware.

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