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Hey Paizo,
Having read most of Dungeons of Golarion, i have a question:
Any chance we might see some sort of Mega-Dungeon as an Adventure Path or another product at some point in the future? Please?
Thanks so much!
I would also like to see a AP that was just six books of one giant dungeon. It'd be extra cool if the AP focused on one route through the dungeon (or one plot thread that wove through it), with the accompanying Map Folio being just several posters of dungeon maps (ala the classic Undermountian boxed set for 2E) that DMs can fill in with their own stuff.
I would like to see an AP based on the style of Dragon Mountain, the 2nd ed. boxed adventure, but moreso. Tribes of different denizens living in different areas, and all the wars, rivalries and alliances that would arise from those conditions.
And the PCs running amok through the whole thing.
I was also wondering the same thing. I am poorly attempting to lash together a mega-dungeon adventure in Golarion from my D&D experiences, but an official one would be awesome.
I would like to see an AP based on the style of Dragon Mountain, the 2nd ed. boxed adventure, but moreso. Tribes of different denizens living in different areas, and all the wars, rivalries and alliances that would arise from those conditions.
And the PCs running amok through the whole thing.
Two separate chunks of Legacy of Fire pretty well fit that description, for what it's worth.
But I understand that's not "the party goes into a giant dungeon level 1 and comes out epic" which I know some people are wanting.
It comes up from time to time. It's a bit like many of the other niche products requested - some people are really into it and some are really against it.
I'd be a big fan - especially if it could be set in the dungeons beneath Kaer Maga, since I think that would provide a nice opportunity for 'breaks' from dungeon delving and would also avoid the problem of loot disposal, training/purchasing of equipment and so forth (plus it's just generally awesome).
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I would also like to see a AP that was just six books of one giant dungeon. It'd be extra cool if the AP focused on one route through the dungeon (or one plot thread that wove through it), with the accompanying Map Folio being just several posters of dungeon maps (ala the classic Undermountian boxed set for 2E) that DMs can fill in with their own stuff.
I dont know about an entire AP devoted to it, although it would be fairly cool. But I have bought a couple different ones over the years, and I would buy them again.....
This is somethign I don't want to see. Long Dungeon Crawls (even medium ones) are something I don't like to GM and my players seem to dislike as well. An entire AP seems like a waste of six months of publiations.
Maybe one short module...
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This is somethign I don't want to see. Long Dungeon Crawls (even medium ones) are something I don't like to GM and my players seem to dislike as well. An entire AP seems like a waste of six months of publiations.
Maybe one short module...
You can't do a mega-dungeon in one module, and certainly not in one short module. What part of mega is it that you don't understand?
I'd be on board for the mega dungeon as well. If done as an adventure path, it could have built-in breaks from the dungeon to keep it from getting stale.
If it is anywhere near as good as the Maure Castle adventures in Dungeon Magazine - count me in :)
If done right, I would absolutely dig it, as would my players. In my experience, most adventures advertised as 'mega-dungeons' break down somewhere around 12th to 13th level if they make the mistake to set the whole shebang in one single location (e.g., stairs leading down from level 1 to level 20, a la Diablo). A megadungeon-style adventure that wants to remain believable throughout and make sure it doesn't lose the players' interest on the way should fulfil the following prerequisites IMO:
- Provide a starting base for players that undergoes changes during the length of the AP. Cauldron in the SCAP was a good example for this. This provides a convenient location for roleplaying, different 'types' of encounters than merely combat, shopping opportunities, and a change of scenery in between the dungeon parts.
- Split the dungeon parts into several tiers, and make them separate dungeons that all are more or less in the vicinity of the starting base. E.g.: a level 1-5 dungeon, a level 6-10 dungeon, and so on. This keeps out problems such as "why didn't the inhabitants of level 13 simply wipe out levels 1-12?" that usually are explained away in the flimsiest way possible.
- There is no need to actually link the dungeons' background, e.g. have them all created by the same civilization, as long as the background story provides an incentive for the players to explore all these separate dungeons.
- Make the 'faction vs. faction' play that has become a staple of megadungeons either work or leave it out entirely. I don't know how many adventures of this type I've read that set up a rivalry between the minotaur tribe on level 5, the orcs on level 2 and the drow on level 15, only to fall short in the execution (= lacking development of said rivalry, both independent of and dependant on the players' actions).
I realize that this is probably a niche's niche ;), but if Paizo ever were to publish this, I'd be all over it.
I'd be a big fan - especially if it could be set in the dungeons beneath Kaer Maga, since I think that would provide a nice opportunity for 'breaks' from dungeon delving and would also avoid the problem of loot disposal, training/purchasing of equipment and so forth (plus it's just generally awesome).
I'm on board with what Steve's got going here. I'm a huge fan of Kaer Maga and the sprawling warren of tunnels and ruins below.
I'd love to see an adventure path set in, around, and under Kaer Maga. Adventure path + mega-dungeon = everyone wins!
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I'd be a big fan - especially if it could be set in the dungeons beneath Kaer Maga, since I think that would provide a nice opportunity for 'breaks' from dungeon delving and would also avoid the problem of loot disposal, training/purchasing of equipment and so forth (plus it's just generally awesome).I'm on board with what Steve's got going here. I'm a huge fan of Kaer Maga and the sprawling warren of tunnels and ruins below.
I'd love to see an adventure path set in, around, and under Kaer Maga. Adventure path + mega-dungeon = everyone wins!
+1 twice
I don't think Paizo will ever do a mega dungeon AP. The 1st APs had a few dungeon-crawl adventures (RotR 4, CotCR 5) and they were not very interesting and poorly appreciated. Moreover, Pathfinder paradigm is "you are adventurers fighting bad guys to make the world better", not "you are adventurers exploring dark places to kill strange monsters and loot their treasure".
Anyway, if I remember correctly, Clark Peterson (Orcus from Necromancer Games) said he was thinking making something for Pathfinder. If you want a good mega-dungeon, he is your man !!
Moreover, Pathfinder paradigm is "you are adventurers fighting bad guys to make the world better", not "you are adventurers exploring dark places to kill strange monsters and loot their treasure".
I never really got that as an underlying message or paradigm. One of the things I like about the APs (I'm gradually slogging my way through reading eleven of them, even though it's going to be a good year or so before I finish running my first) is that they each have their own theme. I daresay they all generally result in making the world better, but only RoRTL, SD and maybe CoT actually feel like that's the goal (to me anyhow).
Anyhow, I'd expect a Paizo megadungeon AP to be more than 'kill the badguy and take his stuff'. I see a megadungeon as a unique setting, not a story-style in itself. Plus, I want more Kaer Maga and the megadungeon is so central to the whole thing.. :)
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I get really tired of people who act like dungeons, mega or not, are automatically mindless hack and slash. All of the best mega-dungeons have storylines that are revealed as a party explores them, and what you lose in plot you gain in player freedom, because to some extent plot always means railroading.
If you want a megadungeon and you aren't a subscriber to Dungeon A Day then you are really missing out. It's the best mega-dungeon I've ever seen. Even if you don't use it as is, there are great ideas on how to keep a dungeon feeling like a living, changing environment.
The current Dungeon is finishing soon. After a short interlude of smaller adventures another mega-project will begin. From the interludes on the site will be 100% Pathfinder compatible (the current project is dual statted 3.5/Pathfinder.)
Creative Director
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In another thread, folks were nominating their top desires for Adventure Path plots. "Pirates" (or some derivition thereof) blew all other nominations away, getting something like 38 noms. The 2nd place one went to "Linnorm Kingdoms" at about 19 noms, and I believe "megadungeon" came in 3rd place with 18 or 17 noms.
There's obviously a desire and demand for a megadungeon AP. And I for one would LOVE to try something like that—we did some similar work on this theme in Dungeon Magazine in issue #112 and again in issues #124 and #139, where we presented levels of Maure Castle. Those adventures were among the most popular adventures we did in that third of the magazine's entire run.
A Megadungeion AP would NOT just be a hack-and-slash fest. It would have the same amount of plot and NPC and story elements we give all our Adventure Paths... the setting would be different is all. That's an oversimplification, of course... but that's the philosophy I'd attack such an AP with.
I would LOVE to do a megadungeon AP. It's the 3rd most requested at this time plot. Chances of us eventually doing a megadungeon AP are thus pretty dang high.
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Stuff about a megadungeon AP...
How about Paizo getting together with SGG/Dungeonaday.com to work out some sort of licensing for publishing a Golarion megadungeon (whether it's one already disclosed, or something entirely new) as their next megadungeon product. They just recently announced that Dungeonaday.com is going all-Pathfinder rulewise. This would smell very synergistic.
-Skeld
That's awesome! Pirates would be cool too, but I'm a bit pirated out after the last few years...still...pirate mega-dungeon? Could be awesome.
Pirates are already coming in the Skull and Shackles AP after Jade Regent.
In another thread, folks were nominating their top desires for Adventure Path plots. "Pirates" (or some derivition thereof) blew all other nominations away, getting something like 38 noms. The 2nd place one went to "Linnorm Kingdoms" at about 19 noms, and I believe "megadungeon" came in 3rd place with 18 or 17 noms.
There's obviously a desire and demand for a megadungeon AP. And I for one would LOVE to try something like that—we did some similar work on this theme in Dungeon Magazine in issue #112 and again in issues #124 and #139, where we presented levels of Maure Castle. Those adventures were among the most popular adventures we did in that third of the magazine's entire run.
A Megadungeion AP would NOT just be a hack-and-slash fest. It would have the same amount of plot and NPC and story elements we give all our Adventure Paths... the setting would be different is all. That's an oversimplification, of course... but that's the philosophy I'd attack such an AP with.
I would LOVE to do a megadungeon AP. It's the 3rd most requested at this time plot. Chances of us eventually doing a megadungeon AP are thus pretty dang high.
That's just so great. Even though I'd probably not run an entire AP that was a mega-dungeon I would totally strip encounters/traps/rooms/monsters/etc from it for years and years. A very worthwhile endeavor for Paizo and something I'd gladly shell out a few ducats for.
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Well, it's not a Paizo product exactly (though I can't say we didn't try hard to figure out how to make it one over many a meeting at Gen Cons and Paizo Cons), but if you're wanting a super-long, epic, dungeon crawl adventure path I'd be remiss in not throwing The Slumbering Tsar Saga out there for you to take a look at. There are even threads here on these messageboards about how to convert it into a Golarion setting. At over 500,000 words (the equivalent of roughly 2-1/2 to 3 full-length Paizo adventure paths) and taking PCs from level 7 to 20+, it might just fit the bill for you.
Have it, or at least up to whats released. But I can always use another.
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Galbraithe may indeed have a very good point that "mega dungeon crawl" doesn't HAVE to mean "just hack-n-slash," kick-in-the-door garbage.
And All of us on the Boards trust Paizo & Erik Mona enough that we shouldn't have to ask if an AP Mega Dungeon would just be a stereotypical megadungeon -- even without Jacobs reiterating it for us (of course it does help!)
Nonetheless, I think alot of people will not like it. Just like a lot of people (more, though, than a megadungeon) don't like the idea of Far East themed AP like Jade Regent even though we trust Paizo and Erik Mona that it won't be JUST Oriental-flavored. And a lot of people (more, even, than a Far East AP) would hate the idea of a gunslinger or a spacejam AP. Even though we trust Paizo to make sure it appeals to people who don't like that kinda stuff so much.
My suggestion is to consider doing a series of Modules -- not an AP -- that does a Mega Dungeon.
If, however, the Mega Dungeon AP comes -- FOR GOD's SAKE -- please, make sure it comes AFTER an AP for Taldor and an AP for Absalom.
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If you want a megadungeon and you aren't a subscriber to Dungeon A Day then you are really missing out. It's the best mega-dungeon I've ever seen. Even if you don't use it as is, there are great ideas on how to keep a dungeon feeling like a living, changing environment.
The current Dungeon is finishing soon. After a short interlude of smaller adventures another mega-project will begin. From the interludes on the site will be 100% Pathfinder compatible (the current project is dual statted 3.5/Pathfinder.)
I was a subscriber for the first year. But after that the realization hit me, Its all online, and I'd have to print it out. It was pretty cool, but not cool enough for something that was all online.
And considering that I was subscribed to the first year, and cant access ANY of that content I did pay for, it doesnt fill me with alot of cofidence.(roughly the first 5 levels)
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Creative Director
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Nonetheless, I think alot of people will not like it.
Actually, I suspect more folks would like this AP than not. Again... it was the third most-requested AP theme in that large thread, and it's also one of the most-requested adventure types we've heard overall.
We'll certainly be looking at feedback on Dungeons of Golarion to see what folks say—that book was created PRECISELY because folks were demanding more megadungeon stuff, after all...
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Galbraithe may indeed have a very good point that "mega dungeon crawl" doesn't HAVE to mean "just hack-n-slash," kick-in-the-door garbage.
And All of us on the Boards trust Paizo & Erik Mona enough that we shouldn't have to ask if an AP Mega Dungeon would just be a stereotypical megadungeon -- even without Jacobs reiterating it for us (of course it does help!)
Nonetheless, I think alot of people will not like it. Just like a lot of people (more, though, than a megadungeon) don't like the idea of Far East themed AP like Jade Regent even though we trust Paizo and Erik Mona that it won't be JUST Oriental-flavored. And a lot of people (more, even, than a Far East AP) would hate the idea of a gunslinger or a spacejam AP. Even though we trust Paizo to make sure it appeals to people who don't like that kinda stuff so much.
My suggestion is to consider doing a series of Modules -- not an AP -- that does a Mega Dungeon.
If, however, the Mega Dungeon AP comes -- FOR GOD's SAKE -- please, make sure it comes AFTER an AP for Taldor and an AP for Absalom.
You know, people did say that a lot of folks won't like a sandbox open-ended AP without a strong railroad storyline...
I don't mind a Megadungeon as long as there is a lot...and I mean a LOT of roleplay element. If wanted a long dungeoncrawl, thats what videogames are for.
I often nerf the heck out of long dungeon encounters for my players. Room by room combat and "clever" traps just aren't as interesting as acutally interacting with other stuff.
My opinion, but just a "Megadungeon" itself is not all that interesting to me...
I was a subscriber for the first year. But after that the realization hit me, Its all online, and I'd have to print it out. It was pretty cool, but not cool enough for something that was all online.
And considering that I was subscribed to the first year, and cant access ANY of that content I did pay for, it doesnt fill me with alot of cofidence.(roughly the first 5 levels)
They did start compiling the levels into PDF. Not sure how many would have been done before your subscription ran out. They have levels 1-13 compiled to PDF now.
You definitely want to run it via laptop though. Especially with something like One Note running to keep track of all the changes the characters are having on the environment.
I did have success running it from my iphone once. Long drive with a friend so I ran it for him while he drove.
Nonetheless, I think alot of people will not like it. Just like a lot of people (more, though, than a megadungeon) don't like the idea of Far East themed AP like Jade Regent even though we trust Paizo and Erik Mona that it won't be JUST Oriental-flavored.
I think you'd be surprised at how popular dungeons can be. I mean, I used to play an RPG where "Dungeons" was half the name! Saying megadungeons don't belong in Pathfinder is like saying huge dragons don't belong in Pathfinder!
Throwing in support for a megadungeon AP set in Kaer Maga (or any AP in Kaer Maga).
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I don't mind a Megadungeon as long as there is a lot...and I mean a LOT of roleplay element.
These kinds of comments confuse me. Do you only play One Player Vs One GM? Because the standard party if 4 to 6 adventurers. That should give you all the role-playing elements you need. Consider a movie like The Descent. There's a lot of "roleplaying encounters" in that movie (i.e. interactions between characters), and none of them involve talking to the Crawlers.
It seems to me that when someone denigrates the role-playing possibilities inherent in a dungeon - a tense, dangerous, enclosed space full of monsters, traps, and treasure - that person is essentially saying they don't see any value in role-playing interactions with the rest of their own party.
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They did start compiling the levels into PDF. Not sure how many would have been done before your subscription ran out. They have levels 1-13 compiled to PDF now.
You definitely want to run it via laptop though. Especially with something like One Note running to keep track of all the changes the characters are having on the environment.
I did have success running it from my iphone once. Long drive with a friend so I ran it for him while he drove.
Sorry I'm an old school guy. Paper and pencil. I'm sure its great with Iphone and all.
Ran out march or may 2010. It should be level 5-6 or somewhere in there.
I don't mind a Megadungeon as long as there is a lot...and I mean a LOT of roleplay element.These kinds of comments confuse me. Do you only play One Player Vs One GM? Because the standard party if 4 to 6 adventurers. That should give you all the role-playing elements you need. Consider a movie like The Descent. There's a lot of "roleplaying encounters" in that movie (i.e. interactions between characters), and none of them involve talking to the Crawlers.
It seems to me that when someone denigrates the role-playing possibilities inherent in a dungeon - a tense, dangerous, enclosed space full of monsters, traps, and treasure - that person is essentially saying they don't see any value in role-playing interactions with the rest of their own party.
If you're talking about that horrible movie about the spelunking girls and the really bad ending...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd avoid. But yes, using that movie as an example, if you have a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters, then that would be a boring adventure. (Much like the movie).
But a megadungeon needs to last longer than a 90 minute movie (even if it does feel like 4 hours...yes, I REALLY hated that movie...I sw it for free andI want my money back) so you need something more than dungeon crawl. I don't mind a single big scenario, but just make sure its more than hack and slash. Gimme some good roleplaying encoutners and lots of them.
It's OK for your players to interact with each other of course, but they and I enjoy encounters where they get to interact with other NPCs and do stuff besides "search, kill, disarm, loot, lather, rise, repeat".
Now, that being said, I HATED the parts of Dragon Mountain that I did play as a player and years later when I got it as a GM, I was unimpressed.
So, if a Megadungeon is inevitable (and it sounds like, unfortunately, it is), then at least make sure its not just 6 APs of combat...
This is somethign I don't want to see. Long Dungeon Crawls (even medium ones) are something I don't like to GM and my players seem to dislike as well. An entire AP seems like a waste of six months of publiations.
Maybe one short module...
I don't care for the whole horror aspect of Carrion Crown. That doesn't mean the entire premise behind it is bad. Not every AP has to appeal to every player.
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If you're talking about that horrible movie about the spelunking girls and the really bad ending...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd avoid. But yes, using that movie as an example, if you have a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters, then that would be a boring adventure. (Much like the movie).
I think you're kind of missing the point, but you're right - if the players create a bunch of boring and stupid characters, then the adventure will be boring. And that's true regardless of what kind of adventure it is, how good the GM is, etc. Boring, stupid players lead to boring, stupid games.
But a megadungeon needs to last longer than a 90 minute movie (even if it does feel like 4 hours...yes, I REALLY hated that movie...I sw it for free andI want my money back) so you need something more than dungeon crawl. I don't mind a single big scenario, but just make sure its more than hack and slash. Gimme some good roleplaying encoutners and lots of them.
It's OK for your players to interact with each other of course, but they and I enjoy encounters where they get to interact with other NPCs and do stuff besides "search, kill, disarm, loot, lather, rise, repeat".
Yep. You completely missed the point. 100% failure to comprehend. One more time: Every single moment of the game where there are two players playing is an opportunity for lots of good roleplaying encounters.
If you need an NPC in a scene for it to be a roleplaying encounter, then I'd suggest that you really don't know what roleplaying is and aren't doing anywhere near as much of it as you think. You're missing more than half the game. If a scene only involving PCs is "search, kill, disarm, loot, lather, rise, repeat," and not a roleplaying encounter, then that's not the fault of the type of adventure. That's just your failure as a group to actually, you know, roleplay.
Wow, Gailbraithe, what's with the ad hominem? Really.
Roleplaying among PCs really has nothing to do with what gigglestick talked about: taking workload off the GM by featuring interesting situations in the AP as written. Situations that immediately get your creativity going, that scream for a roleplaying encounter. A GM with enough time on his hands that also has a group which is into roleplaying (as opposed to rollplaying/lighthearted campaigns) can easily turn the most hack&slash adventure into a good roleplaying session with some effort. So what? Not everyone is that GM, not everyone has a group like that, not everyone has time to prepare. Thus, every little bit of work that the adventure's authors do for the GM is appreciated.
I get really tired of people who act like dungeons, mega or not, are automatically mindless hack and slash. All of the best mega-dungeons have storylines that are revealed as a party explores them, and what you lose in plot you gain in player freedom, because to some extent plot always means railroading.
I really encourage everyone to take a look at Dungeons of Golarion for some outlines of how an engaging megadungeon could work as an AP. It really doesn't have to be hack-n-slash or all straight dungeon crawl. Kaer Maga is the obvious choice, but the new PC offers six overviews of possible megadungeon APs, along with a list of 16 others.
I am not a big fan of dungeons, mega or anyways, but that is because they feel just specificly designed for the adventuring party to adventure through them. What I prefer for dungeons are places that are designed to be used by other groups/monsters.
for example a dungeon that is an armory but now occupied by deamons or other evil outsiders of your choice. Said armory could be large and huge, but it has a purpose beyond just "adventuring place" That sort of thing is what I would want out of a 'dungeon ap'
thankfully though the APs are just half adventure, they also have some setting information that can be helpful, as well as some more monsters which are always nice.
I get really tired of people who act like dungeons, mega or not, are automatically mindless hack and slash. All of the best mega-dungeons have storylines that are revealed as a party explores them, and what you lose in plot you gain in player freedom, because to some extent plot always means railroading.I really encourage everyone to take a look at Dungeons of Golarion for some outlines of how an engaging megadungeon could work as an AP. It really doesn't have to be hack-n-slash or all straight dungeon crawl. Kaer Maga is the obvious choice, but the new PC offers six overviews of possible megadungeon APs, along with a list of 16 others.
Over on EN World (this was almst 10 years ago though...) There was a story hour based on a game that was centered around Hommlett and a gaming groups various foray's into the Temple of Elemental Evil. It was hands down one of the best story hours that I'd ever read and provedwithout a doubt that Dungeon Crawls dont have to be static and boring. I've printed it out and keep it on my night table so that whenever I get bored or an at a loss for inspiration I read a couple of pages of it to get me excited about gaming.
Kaer Maga please.
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Have to disagree with you Gailbraithe (again). Player to player RP is great but it should not be the only RP going on. I have run Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil with good players who are all about the RP and interesting characters. It still got toe curlingly boring because it was just hack and slash. Enemy after enemy after enemy with no variety and minimal RP just gets boring no matter how good your players are.
My first reaction to the prospect of a mega dungeon was dissapointment. I have never played a decent dungeon crawl and it just doesn't float my boat. But then I remembered that I felt vaguely muted about Jade Regent and Carrion Crown. Now I feel stoked about both of them because what was/is being produced is far better than my preconceptions.
The bottom line is I don't like dungeon crawls but I trust Paizo to change my mind.
After browsing Dungeons of Golarion, specifically Gallowspire, I feel a Megadungeon AP would work out phenomenally. From what I've seen so far, Paizo will definitely have plenty of variety and creative ideas to keep the dungeon layout itself fun and interesting. All that they would really need to do is provide enough story and fluff to tie it all together, which is a challenge I feel they can handle brilliantly.
You have my vote for the MD AP.