This is another one that's debated eternally.
Obviously, it should do more than charm person's contested charisma check to force them to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, but that's left rather undefined as well.
It would all depend on how you worded the suggestion. Since you have sentence or two to make your suggestion, something along the lines of 'Run and get help from the nearest village, your companion needs a special elixir only found there!" would be better than "flee!", since there is no reason for the person to flee at that time. "Your companions have all been replaced with dopplegangers, you must help me defeat them" sounds better than "defend me", especially if the person you're using it on has been travelling with the group for a while.
So, as the title indicates, what's the general opinion on the limits of "reasonable" and "obviously harmful"? Is this a spell that is really intended for the battlefield?
If you ask a dozen GMs what the answer is you are likely to get more than twelve different answers. There is no single correct answer. It works better in the capacity of a Jedi mind trick ("These aren't the droids you're looking for.") than as something in the middle of battle but it isn't exclusive.
"Protect Me"
From some giant rats, sure. From a on-rushing ancient Red Dragon, not so much.
"Flee"
This is one that is almost certainly OK, as it duplicates the effect of a level 1 spell, command.
"Trip/Overrun/Grapple/etc your ally"
Depends on how its phrased. "Could you grab your friend, so we can talk." Sure, that might work. "Could you bull rush your life-long friend off that cliff to his death, because you like me best." Meh.
I tend to think "reasonable" is something that the target might actually consider as a plan of action, if asked by a good friend. "Obviously harmful" is something that is known to cause damage or likely to lead to death.
If you think the spell is too powerful, here are two outs:
The first is "reasonable," which, as you have identified, is pretty open-ended. The spell never says that the target treats the caster's requests as more reasonable than normal. If you are in a fight for your life and your opponent tells you to abandon your allies, that is not a particularly reasonable request. Nor would your opponent telling you to start acting against your allies or helping him.
What might be reasonable is your opponent asking everyone to stop fighting ("grapple your ally so we can talk"), but as soon as the opponent acts against that request (he attacks the grappled ally), the request is no longer reasonable, so the effect ends. Similarly, if the opponent says "your lifelong companion has a rare disease that can only be cured with an elixer from the nearby town. Get it!" that isn't reasonable if your companion has never shown any signs of illness. If the opponent wants to put in the time beforehand researching and scrying you and your friend to discover that he, for example, always talks in his sleep, and then suggest that that is sign of demonic possession and needs an elixer to cure it, then that advance planning should be rewarded. Similarly if the players do that the enemy.
Your second out is "the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." If the PCs suggest that an opponent protect them, then the moment that NPC has taken a single action to protect them, he has completed the suggestion and the effect ends. That probably won't go over well with your players unless you warn them ahead of time that that's how you are going to rule the spell, but it is a possible out.
As for Suggestion "Flee" == Command "Flee", Command lasts a single round. Suggestion lasts for hours (a more verbose version of "Flee" could be used, such as "Flee the country" or "Return to your home"). Extended Command "Flee" only lasts for 2 rounds. Cause Fear has a HD limiter (< 6) and lasts rounds. Fear is a 4th level spell, and also lasts rounds, although it is a cone instead of single target.
Don't forget the duration is 1 hour/level or until completed. So, simply saying 'flee' would likely end in mere rounds (i.e. until a safe location is reached). By the rules-as-written just saying 'flee' wouldn't work. You would need to give a reason, such as 'You are outmatched, flee or die," or some-such. There are a myriad of reasons that a 'flee' type of suggestion would seem reasonable.
As for 'flee the country,' I would say that would likely be unreasonable in the context of a battle. Why would they need to leave the country? Perhaps, if you had some inside knowledge about the NPC that he is a wanted felon and the authorities are actively looking for him. But typically that would be an unreasonable overreaction to a given situation, such as combat.
I suppose this is just a problem with enchantment and illusion spells in general. Their power level varies greatly from GM to GM, and there are few examples indicating their limitations or intended uses.
Wholeheartedly agree on this, suggestion is a very open-ended spell. It even varies in power based on the cleverness of the player using it.
Powerful but reasonable suggestions, hmm.
I think the OP had in mind suggestions made during combat. None of these seem very reasonable in that light.
"have a few beers" (in an urban encounter where there is a tavern near enough to be reasonable but far enough to get the suggestee throughly out of the way)
This one is odd in the sense if the suggestion was made outside of combat or not dramatically affects the outcome.
If the guard was known to drink a bit too much and tended to shirk his duty, it would work just fine.
If it was your average guard, maybe, maybe not. He wouldn't mind a drink, but he also knows he will get in trouble for leaving his post. So, maybe a slight bonus to his save.
In the middle of combat with his buddies dying beside him and someone with a sword pointed at him. No, not reasonable at all. He may very well need a drink after it's over, but he ain't gonna just walk away.
Same suggestion, three different results. That why it is so hard adjudicate.
What people are forgetting is the existence of charm person. It can do far more than suggestion if you read suggestion to work as described above. So why bother with suggestion?
What people are forgetting is the existence of charm person. It can do far more than suggestion if you read suggestion to work as described above. So why bother with suggestion?
Well, that also depends on what the GM in question allows charm person to do. I've seen it played as having an effect that was basically dominate person, which it is definitely not.
Charm person just means they treat you as friend. Suggestion can force a specific course of action. Granted the difference is subtle. But just because a friend asks you to do something doesn't mean you are going to do it. A suggestion on the other hand will compel you to do it.
These spells are never easy to adjudicate and I can almost guarantee that no two GMs will always rule the same.
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I had my first experience with Suggestion recently, GMing PFS for the first time. I simply consulted with my players before casting, to get a consensus on what seemed appropriate. We decided that direct attack of his comrades was out of the question, so I told the fighter to "Keep everyone else out of the room". He picked up the witch (his ally), tossed her into the hallway next to the now-bewildered cleric, and barred the door. Suddenly every spellcaster was outside trying to break the door down, while the strong guys were inside, with one contemplating the feasability of throwing people out the window (first-story room). The cavalier was later told to "protect me", which he performed by attempting disarms against the barbarian and trying to stand between said barbarian and the BBEG.
Seem reasonable?
Powerful but reasonable suggestions, hmm.I think the OP had in mind suggestions made during combat. None of these seem very reasonable in that light.
"have a few beers" (in an urban encounter where there is a tavern near enough to be reasonable but far enough to get the suggestee throughly out of the way)This one is odd in the sense if the suggestion was made outside of combat or not dramatically affects the outcome.
If the guard was known to drink a bit too much and tended to shirk his duty, it would work just fine.
If it was your average guard, maybe, maybe not. He wouldn't mind a drink, but he also knows he will get in trouble for leaving his post. So, maybe a slight bonus to his save.
In the middle of combat with his buddies dying beside him and someone with a sword pointed at him. No, not reasonable at all. He may very well need a drink after it's over, but he ain't gonna just walk away.
Same suggestion, three different results. That why it is so hard adjudicate.
Doesn't the spell description give an example of taking a dip in a pool of water(acid) as a reasonable suggestion? If pausing combat to take a bath is reasonable, surely stopping off for a pint is even more so. (Unless the target happens to be a teetotaler)
Just to step in with a monkey wrench, what the spell actually says is the following;
"The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable."
It does not say the suggestion itself has to be reasonable. It just has to be worded in a way that makes it sound reasonable.
To me, that means that it could be something that would interact well with say, a Bluff or Diplomacy check.
Plus its a compulsion effect; the whole idea behind compulsion is that you are overriding a persons ability to act in the fashion they want to.
"Start walking eastward until I say differently, would you? I hear the view is great this time of evening." doesn't sound that unreasonable in and of itself, right?
Doesn't the spell description give an example of taking a dip in a pool of water(acid) as a reasonable suggestion? If pausing combat to take a bath is reasonable, surely stopping off for a pint is even more so. (Unless the target happens to be a teetotaler)
The spell doesn't give any examples.
EDIT: 3.5 PHB had that example, but it didn't specify using it in combat would cause the creature to stop combat and go for a dip rather that making the suggestion that the acid was actually harmless would negate the "obviously harmful" clause.
For those that might like to see what the Sage said about it in 3.5 see the rules of game article, "Enchantments (part two)." His basic rule of thumb was "a suggestion should be something that the subject might decide to do on his own if the circumstances were appropriate or if the subject shared the caster's point of view."
"Start walking eastward until I say differently, would you? I hear the view is great this time of evening." doesn't sound that unreasonable in and of itself, right?
Unless I'm on west side of a canyon. :-P
While charm person is in effect, you can make contested charisma checks to force the subject to do something it wouldn't ordinarily do. There's no limit to the number of requests for the duration of the spell (1 hour/level). If suggestion can't even do that much, it's a bit of an oddity that it's a higher level spell.
Unless I'm on west side of a canyon. :-P
At that point, I'd also ask you to close your eyes, and possibly add in a promise of cake at the end of the trip.