Unarmed strikes don't have to be used with your hands. You can say Claw/Claw and Kick an opponent. There is a hefty penalty for doing this since you attack as though you were using two weapon fighting and your natural attack is considered a light weapon and off hand. As well you natural attack is considered a secondary attack suffering -5 penalty and 1/2 str damage modifier.
To do this you suffer -4 to attack with the kick and -13 on both claw attacks. For damage it's 1D3 + Str for the kick, 1D4+ 1/2 Str for the claws.
So if you decided to do this take the feats Two Weapon Fighting (PF CORE) and Multiattack (PF Bestiary).
By taking Two Weapon fighting you reduce the penalty to -2 to hit with the Kick and -7 for the Claws. Pick up Multi Attack you claw attack go down to -4 to hit, no change for the kick.
As a Ranger you get Multi Attack as Combat Style for Free at 10th if you want to wait that long.
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Unarmed strikes don't have to be used with your hands. You can say Claw/Claw and Kick an opponent. There is a hefty penalty for doing this since you attack as though you were using two weapon fighting and your natural attack is considered a light weapon and off hand. As well you natural attack is considered a secondary attack suffering -5 penalty and 1/2 str damage modifier.
To do this you suffer -4 to attack with the kick and -13 on both claw attacks. For damage it's 1D3 + Str for the kick, 1D4+ 1/2 Str for the claws.
So if you decided to do this take the feats Two Weapon Fighting (PF CORE) and Multiattack (PF Bestiary).
By taking Two Weapon fighting you reduce the penalty to -2 to hit with the Kick and -7 for the Claws. Pick up Multi Attack you claw attack go down to -4 to hit, no change for the kick.
As a Ranger you get Multi Attack as Combat Style for Free at 10th if you want to wait that long.
Incorrect, they have removed the two weapon fighting penalties from Natural attacks.
In the above scenario your kicks(elbows, knees, etc) would be at full bab and your Natural Attacks would be at BaB -5 (or -2 with Multi-Attack) and at half strength to damage.
I don't use the unarmed strike since any penalty to your bab is for natural attacks is rough, you have far fewer ways to increase your hit chance with Natural Weapons then you do with Manufactured weapons and multi-attack is not allowed in PFS so you are permanently stuck with that -5 to hit.
Good catch, just read it again and indeed the two weapon penalty does not apply to the Natural attack. It just applies the armed or unarmed attack.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
I stand corrected.
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Good catch, just read it again and indeed the two weapon penalty does not apply to the Natural attack. It just applies the armed or unarmed attack.
From the PRD "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
I stand corrected.
Nope, you're still wrong.
The Devs have re-stated those rules in the beastiary and have completely removed the two-weapon fighting aspect.
The only thing that happens when you mix Natural Weapons and iterative attacks is the nat weapons get a -5 to hit and half strength on damage.
I'm not seeing where the rules say that.
This if from the PRD Universal Monster Rules
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
This is from PRD Combat
"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
The Bestairy states you attack with your weapon(s) normally. Normally as per the core rule book. In the core rule book that's under combat, natural attack as posted above. I see nothing removed from the rule, just a lighter repeat of the rule and reference to the core rule.
Just a note you need 3 natural attack to even take multiattack. So grab a bite attack if you can.
I'm not seeing where the rules say that.
Because they don't.
However, in response to "Bestiary says 'weapon attacks are made normally' and the Core book says 'weapon attacks are made with two-weapon fighting penalties'."
Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second.
The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones.
Definitely needs to cleaned up. My group goes by the book unless we house rule it. Doing as the quote from James says means adding a house rule. Since we've been using as written in the core rulebook without issue I don't think we will apply that change unless is show up as an official change in the rules. But I'll point this out to my group and see what they think. I'm guessing they will keep it as is because this issue doesn't come up much and when it does we don't want to be flipping through notes for changes to it.
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Definitely needs to cleaned up. My group goes by the book unless we house rule it. Doing as the quote from James says means adding a house rule. Since we've been using as written in the core rulebook without issue I don't think we will apply that change unless is show up as an official change in the rules. But I'll point this out to my group and see what they think. I'm guessing they will keep it as is because this issue doesn't come up much and when it does we don't want to be flipping through notes for changes to it.
They did clean it up and now that I'm home with my books in front of me I can give you the full information.
Beastiary 2, page 299, bottom paragraph on the left.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attacks original type.
So easiest way to do it is during a full attack do all your iterative attacks normally and then with any natural attacks you have (that don't use the appendage that you did the iterative attacks with) do those attacks at BaB +bonuses -5 (or -2 if you have multi-attack)
Definitely needs to cleaned up. My group goes by the book unless we house rule it. Doing as the quote from James says means adding a house rule. Since we've been using as written in the core rulebook without issue I don't think we will apply that change unless is show up as an official change in the rules. But I'll point this out to my group and see what they think. I'm guessing they will keep it as is because this issue doesn't come up much and when it does we don't want to be flipping through notes for changes to it.They did clean it up and now that I'm home with my books in front of me I can give you the full information.
Beastiary 2, page 299, bottom paragraph on the left.
So easiest way to do it is during a full attack do all your iterative attacks normally and then with any natural attacks you have (that don't use the appendage that you did the iterative attacks with) do those attacks at BaB +bonuses -5 (or -2 if you have multi-attack)
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attacks original type.
That clears nothing up, normally can still apply to the core rule book Attack Action. The only indication that something is amiss is Jame's quote. With out that quote I'd have never known there was even an issue here.
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That clears nothing up, normally can still apply to the core rule book Attack Action. The only indication that something is amiss is Jame's quote. With out that quote I'd have never known there was even an issue here.Definitely needs to cleaned up. My group goes by the book unless we house rule it. Doing as the quote from James says means adding a house rule. Since we've been using as written in the core rulebook without issue I don't think we will apply that change unless is show up as an official change in the rules. But I'll point this out to my group and see what they think. I'm guessing they will keep it as is because this issue doesn't come up much and when it does we don't want to be flipping through notes for changes to it.They did clean it up and now that I'm home with my books in front of me I can give you the full information.
Beastiary 2, page 299, bottom paragraph on the left.
So easiest way to do it is during a full attack do all your iterative attacks normally and then with any natural attacks you have (that don't use the appendage that you did the iterative attacks with) do those attacks at BaB +bonuses -5 (or -2 if you have multi-attack)
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attacks original type.
Yes, it uses the core rulebook attack action and any modifiers you put on it (two weapon fighting, thrown weapons, power attack, etc) and function exactly the same as if you didn't have natural attacks.
Once all of that is resolved then you do your natural attacks as if they were secondary attacks.They specifically removed all mention of two weapon fighting or natural attacks affecting your iterative attacks at all.
These are new rules and you go by what is written here and since this says nothing about any penalties other than natural attacks being secondary then there are no other penalties.
And if you hadn't read Jame's quote you would have looked at the entry in bestiary 2 and seen the two weapon fighting rule had been removed and followed those rules instead.
edit: the only exception to the above rule is if during your iterative attacks you do something that applies a bonus or penalty to ALL your attacks you apply that to your natural attacks as well.