Freedom of Movement Underwater

[Sir_Wulf]

The text of the spell reads as follows:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

This came up during this weekend's PFS game. There seemed to be two points of view about the spell: Since "The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater", some players concluded that the subject could swim at his full land speed, almost as if he had some sort of underwater flight.

I prefer the interpretation that the PC can move at his full swim speed (normally 1/4 his land speed) without making Swim checks, and can move at full land speed along the bottom. He would be immune to underwater currents, poor footing, or magical impediments.

What do you guys think?

[markofbane]

For reference, Rules for underwater combat and freedom of movement spell.

From my reading, the rules are not explicit on it. However, the table treats a person with freedom of movement almost the same as if they had a swim move speed, so in my game I'd rule they could move through the water as if they had a swim move speed with the spell in effect.

If you treat it as though they were moving through air (ignoring the water, but no swim speed), then it opens up other questions. Do they "fall" from the surface to the bottom when entering the water? Can they not move up through the water any more than they could flap their arms and fly in air without a spell? Those seem like too big of drawbacks for a 4th level spell, and adding a swim move speed equal to their land speed doesn't seem too powerful for a 4th level spell, especially since the touch of the sea spell is a first level spell that gives you that ability.

[Sir_Wulf]

markofbane wrote:

If you treat it as though they were moving through air (ignoring the water, but no swim speed), then it opens up other questions. Do they "fall" from the surface to the bottom when entering the water? Can they not move up through the water any more than they could flap their arms and fly in air without a spell?

I don't think that idea necessarily follows. I'm not suggesting that they suddenly lose bouyancy or can't swim: I see the spell making its subject immune to impediments, but not giving entirely new movement abilities. They don't lose the ability to use water's resistance when they need it for movement, but the water doesn't work against them.

[markofbane]

Core rules FAQ. And I don't see anything in the FAQ on this one.

And I get that you weren't suggesting a loss of bouyancy in your original post; I was just explaining my reasoning for how I'd personally adjudicate it. It's a great question, and in a few hours I expect you'll get a fair number of people weighing in on it.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Sir_Wulf wrote:

I prefer the interpretation that the PC can move at his full swim speed (normally 1/4 his land speed) without making Swim checks, and can move at full land speed along the bottom. He would be immune to underwater currents, poor footing, or magical impediments.

What do you guys think?

This is a very good interpretation and the one that I typically use. Granting a swim speed is beyond the bounds of what this spell can do.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[DarthEnder]

markofbane wrote:

If you treat it as though they were moving through air (ignoring the water, but no swim speed), then it opens up other questions. Do they "fall" from the surface to the bottom when entering the water? Can they not move up through the water any more than they could flap their arms and fly in air without a spell?

That's how I'd always interpreted this. That the character acts as if the water simply isn't there.

Basically, there is no water resistance. As moving "normally" means you don't swim and gravity effects you as normal since normally, you can't swim through air.

I've had more than one character with a Ring of Freedom fall over the side of a boat only to plummet to the bottom and smash into the ocean floor unless they had some kind of featherfall/levitate/flight.

If this is incorrect, than I'd love to know.

[Bobson]

DarthEnder wrote:

Basically, there is no water resistance. As moving "normally" means you don't swim and gravity effects you as normal since normally, you can't swim through air.

Normal movement in water is swimming. Therefore, FoM lets you swim without any hinderances.

[Troubleshooter]

I have another question.

There is a pool of sticky boiling tar. The tar deals damage similar to the way lava does (contact versus immersion) but also sticks to you, dealing damage for a few rounds after leaving the pool, and then hardens, giving you a Dexterity penalty or somesuch.

It specifically calls out that a character with Freedom of Movement can wade through the pool of sticky tar unimpeded. My question is, does any of the tar stick to the character after it has exited the pool? Obviously the character would be unaffected by the hardening (being constrained by the tar would be no different than being nonmagically held, such as by a creature or by manacles), but would the tar stick to the creature enough to keep burning it for those few rounds?

Alternate ending: Does freedom of movement allow you to leave a swimming pool completely dry?

[xorial]

Not trying to derail, but a funny observation. It is sometimes wrong for a person to be up too late reading any forums. The title looked like, from just a glance as I scrolled by, "Freedom of Moving Underware." I did a double take to make sure. I think I will go to bed now.

[Maddigan]

I hope Paizo does a rules column on freedom of movement like they did for Stealth and Combat Maneuvers. Really flesh out the spell. It's one of the most powerful lvl 4 spells in the game that makes the much higher level spell freedom seem like a joke. DMs could really use a write up on freedom of movement to get the spell fully fleshed out for now and future editions of the game.

[Maddigan]

Sir_Wulf wrote:

The text of the spell reads as follows:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

This came up during this weekend's PFS game. There seemed to be two points of view about the spell: Since "The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater", some players concluded that the subject could swim at his full land speed, almost as if he had some sort of underwater flight.

I prefer the interpretation that the PC can move at his full swim speed (normally 1/4 his land speed) without making Swim checks, and can move at full land speed along the bottom. He would be immune to underwater currents, poor footing, or magical impediments.

What do you guys think?

I usually play it pretty close to this. I may for the sake of simplicity start running the spell exactly as written where it pertains to move and act normally.

[Lurk3r]

Well, freedom of movement underwear should probably cost extra for being in an unusual slot, on top the charge for unlimited uses per da-

Oh, underwater.

I always envisioned it as a bubble around you- it 'frees' your movement from the effect of water, as though you weren't in water. So, by my interpretation, a character with FoM who enters a body of water just falls to the bottom of it and keeps walking. As the spell says: move normally while underwater. Normal for most people is walking.

[Suzaku]

Lurk3r wrote:

Well, freedom of movement underwear should probably cost extra for being in an unusual slot, on top the charge for unlimited uses per da-

Oh, underwater.

I always envisioned it as a bubble around you- it 'frees' your movement from the effect of water, as though you weren't in water. So, by my interpretation, a character with FoM who enters a body of water just falls to the bottom of it and keeps walking. As the spell says: move normally while underwater. Normal for most people is walking.

I would say swimming in water is normal, unless the character wants to move normally.

[Shizzle69]

I don't know if this helps, but the Horizon Walkers terrain dominance of the plane of water has this to say.

"Plane of Water: The horizon walker’s movements and actions are not hampered when underwater. This allows him to speak, make attacks, and cast spells normally underwater (as if using freedom of movement)."

[Stubs McKenzie]

I have always taken it to mean you can move around under water just as if you were on a staircase going in infinite directions all at once. If you want to ascend, you would ascend as if you were walking up a staircase of the requisite slope (which might require 2x movement depending on the slope). This means you must still use the limbs normally required for movement, and makes you "hike" to the surface to get air. If you fly, you still need to flap your wings, and so forth, which also means if your wings or legs are disabled in some way that FoM doesnt prevent, that you may very well still get stuck underwater.

For me, the idea that you have to swim, but can wield a tower shield, a hammer, and be wearing full plate during that process seems too silly... how do you gain any forward momentum? Even by saying "it's magic" still takes me out of the moment... I prefer to think they are able to walk/hustle/run as they would normally do when on land, which keeps a person's arms free for fighting/grappling/pulling something from their belt while moving/etc, and their legs occupied.

Not sure if it needs to be said, but just as an addendum, I don't allow people to walk on water with the spell, they must be submersed to allow the movement specified. They may attack into water from a boat or something without hindrance, but something has to be supporting them at all times.

[DarthEnder]

Bobson wrote:

Normal movement in water is swimming. Therefore, FoM lets you swim without any hinderances.

But the water itself is a hindrance. That's why swimming is so much slower than your normal movement speed.

[Larry Lichman]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Sir_Wulf wrote:

I prefer the interpretation that the PC can move at his full swim speed (normally 1/4 his land speed) without making Swim checks, and can move at full land speed along the bottom. He would be immune to underwater currents, poor footing, or magical impediments.

What do you guys think?

This is a very good interpretation and the one that I typically use. Granting a swim speed is beyond the bounds of what this spell can do.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks, Jason!

I think this is the authoritative response to the issue. For those of you with issues regarding the "silliness" of swimming with weapons, armor, etc, note that Jason agrees with the interpretation that the PC can move at his swim speed - this is not saying the PC is actually swimming, just that he moves at his swim speed. He's not swimming, he's just moving at the same speed he would be if swimming.

[Stubs McKenzie]

DarthEnder wrote:

Bobson wrote:

Normal movement in water is swimming. Therefore, FoM lets you swim without any hinderances.

But the water itself is a hindrance. That's why swimming is so much slower than your normal movement speed.

I agree Darth, it's like saying "FoM lets you move through dense underbrush unimpeded... you know, at 1/2 your movement because that's how fast you ~normally~ move through dense underbrush, but don't worry, its unimpeded.

[Father Dale]

I always treat FoM underwater as basically airwalk while in water.

[Ravingdork]

From the recently released Aquatic Adventures book:

The creature [with freedom of movement] automatically succeeds at all Swim checks as the water offers no significant resistance to its movement. If the creature has the ability to do so, it can fly or use spells like air walk to freely move around as if it were in air.

:D

[_Ozy_]

Wow, that's a big deal.

Fly + FoM == awesome

[andreww]

Ravingdork wrote:

From the recently released Aquatic Adventures book:

The creature [with freedom of movement] automatically succeeds at all Swim checks as the water offers no significant resistance to its movement. If the creature has the ability to do so, it can fly or use spells like air walk to freely move around as if it were in air.

:D

What does it say about the use of lands speeds underwater while under freedom of movement?

[Ravingdork]

andreww wrote:

What does it say about the use of lands speeds underwater while under freedom of movement?

If you're walking along the bottom you move at your normal land speed, rather than half, since you no longer have to contend with water resistance. (You still don't fall to your death if you fall off a ship while under the effects of freedom of movement.)