I've been considering adapting the spell point system described here for use in Pathfinder and/or my home rule set. It works well for sorcerers and wizards as presented, but I ran into a problem looking at divine casters, because they also have different numbers of spells per day. While I'm certain to tweak the actual point values all around, what would you consider good ratios of strain points between casters? I'm currently thinking:
Wizard/Cleric: 1
Sorcerer/Oracle: 1.5
Druid (without domain): 0.8? 0.75?
Partial Casters: not a clue
Psionics? :)
I've never been happy with psionics, for the reasons described in that article--the way psionics, and most existing spell point systems work, you end up being able to cast 100s or 1000s of low-level spells per day, which even if not entirely unreasonable, tends to create game issues. For the same reason, I would make the modification to that system as presented that any spell always costs at least 1 strain point; at-will spells just have too much potential for trouble.
I've never been happy with psionics, for the reasons described in that article--the way psionics, and most existing spell point systems work, you end up being able to cast 100s or 1000s of low-level spells per day, which even if not entirely unreasonable, tends to create game issues. For the same reason, I would make the modification to that system as presented that any spell always costs at least 1 strain point; at-will spells just have too much potential for trouble.
Because of the way the PSP system works, you could, at 20th level, cast potentially a couple hundred of level 1 powers. But those powers would be 1PP powers and be about as powerful as 1 die magic missiles all day. Also...cantrips?
Don't want to turn this into a Psionics debate, just wanted to say they have a spellpoint system that works really well, at least in a vacuum.
Right, I forgot about the whole augmentation aspect...in that regard, while it works...I'm looking for something a little more elegant/intuitive. Not trying to bash psionics--it definitely works--but it's not quite what I'm looking for.
HypertextD20
Variant magic at the bottom of the center column
I changed the formula for casting spells to 2(spell level) + 1 and removed the Cantrip mechanic. The 'extra spells' for casting Stats becomes additional spell points and I have a feat that lets you add your level in spellpoints (really nice at higher levels!).
HypertextD20
Variant magic at the bottom of the center column
I changed the formula for casting spells to 2(spell level) + 1 and removed the Cantrip mechanic. The 'extra spells' for casting Stats becomes additional spell points and I have a feat that lets you add your level in spellpoints (really nice at higher levels!).
That doesn't eliminate the main problem with existing point-based systems though--you can still cast obscene amounts of low-level spells. The numbers aren't quite as crazy as the unmodified 3.5 spell points or psionics, but they're still out of hand...thus my desire to use the variant I linked to. However, it's designed for 3.5 and not fully fleshed out, thus this thread looking for suggestions on it.
That doesn't eliminate the main problem with existing point-based systems though--you can still cast obscene amounts of low-level spells. The numbers aren't quite as crazy as the unmodified 3.5 spell points or psionics, but they're still out of hand...thus my desire to use the variant I linked to. However, it's designed for 3.5 and not fully fleshed out, thus this thread looking for suggestions on it.HypertextD20
Variant magic at the bottom of the center column
I changed the formula for casting spells to 2(spell level) + 1 and removed the Cantrip mechanic. The 'extra spells' for casting Stats becomes additional spell points and I have a feat that lets you add your level in spellpoints (really nice at higher levels!).
I just looked over the linked system briefly, but you could increase the strain cost of all spellcasting by 1 or 2 every round you cast a spell, resetting this counter after however much rest (1 hour? 1 round with no spellcasting?), I dunno.
That doesn't eliminate the main problem with existing point-based systems though--you can still cast obscene amounts of low-level spells.
A high end Wizard frittering away his precious stockpile of valuable spell points by casting a bunch of low level spells is not going to worry me at all.
That doesn't eliminate the main problem with existing point-based systems though--you can still cast obscene amounts of low-level spells.A high end Wizard frittering away his precious stockpile of valuable spell points by casting a bunch of low level spells is not going to worry me at all.
I looked at the spell point system as found in the d20 SRD vs a similar one which was based upon casting "raw levels of spells" such as a LvL 9 spell = 9 spell levels which could be broke up and cast anyway you wish. As a DM I VERY quickly found that it allowed too much flexibility to accurately account for. Effectively you could never count on the party needing to use any form of resource management and just continue to blast everything in sight (at higher levels of course).
The problem with the spell system in the d20 SRD was that it also added yet another level of complexity to and already complex game system which left my players having to do ALOT more math at the table (vs being able to figure it out ahead of time and show up to the game ready to go).
The other issue I ran into was I always keep at least an eye on Mass Combat implications of such systems and ask what would happen if the caster in questions could cast a virtually unlimited about of curing spells, or 100 fireballs, etc. Answer? Well, we all know. It would mean that the casters would completely dominate that battle. It also would mean (in a more realistic world view) that every person in the world with above average stats would be a caster due to such an ability.
In my campaign a better option for us was to simply convert the entire magic system over to a dynamic platform much like sorcerers. You still memorized your spells (and could change them daily) but once memorized your casting worked just like the sorcerer. The sorcerer on the other hand simply got more spells to cast in a single day (like normal). Realizing that the sorcerer sorta got shafted by this change I further allowed the Sorcerer to change their spells once per week, but only while at full rest (such as at the Cozy Inn between adventures).
There were actually alot of other stuff I did to my magic system and the casters as a way of customizing the campaign such as requiring Spell School specialization from the Wizards, assuming domain spells were automatically memorized by divine casters, and restricting 7 - 9 level spells to Specialty / Domain only. The Sorcerer also got some love in that they could still cast whatever they wanted without this restriction as long as it was along their character concept.
Spell point system i have liked.
You gain 1 spell point per level. ( 1st level you have 1 spell point ).
1 hour of sleep can restore = 2 spell points per hour.
1 hour of meditation can restore = 1 spell point per hour.
D&D spells
1 spell point per spell level. 1st level spell used up 1 spell point, while a 9th level spell used up 9 spell points.
......
At 20th level, you have 20 spell points. Letting you cast 2 9th level spell + 1 2nd level spell. Or you can cast 20 1st level spells. Or 4 5th level spells.
While this does cut down on the total number of spells at high levels, it also gives you more freedom on using lower level spells.
The ability to rest or meditate, helps at lower levels, by letting the low level character have more access to spells that in normal D&D.
Anyway, its a quick, Simple, and easy system, that i have liked in the past
That doesn't eliminate the main problem with existing point-based systems though--you can still cast obscene amounts of low-level spells. The numbers aren't quite as crazy as the unmodified 3.5 spell points or psionics, but they're still out of hand...thus my desire to use the variant I linked to. However, it's designed for 3.5 and not fully fleshed out, thus this thread looking for suggestions on it.HypertextD20
Variant magic at the bottom of the center column
I changed the formula for casting spells to 2(spell level) + 1 and removed the Cantrip mechanic. The 'extra spells' for casting Stats becomes additional spell points and I have a feat that lets you add your level in spellpoints (really nice at higher levels!).
You do realize the linked system eventually lets you cast unlimited spells of 1-4 level right?
If 100s is an issue then what's infinite gonna look like?
If you're going to use a spell point system, then the best way in my experience is to borrow from psionics- and then limit the casters in different ways.
Force the Prepared Casters to Memorize their spells, still. Any leftover SP is used for augmentation, not to cast new spells unless they stop to prepare more (The Wizard with Fast Study might be a little more potent with this, but not overly so).
As for Spontaneous Casters, reduce their number of spells known by 1 per spell level, NOT including the first they'd learn of that level. For example, a 4th level sorcerer would still get his 2nd level spell, he'd only lose his next one. Change the favored class bonuses that would otherwise give new spells known, to giving 1 SP per level- a level 20 human sorcerer could have an additional 20 SP, in other words.
As for Alchemists... keep them as-is, really, it might be a bit of a mess otherwise. They're weird! But fuuun.
Wouldn't just having a max number of castings per spell level work? You can use what what ever Pathfinder has listed for that class/level + N. So if N = 5 then a 3rd level wizard could cast at most 7 2nd level spells per day. A twentieth level sorcerer could cast 11 spells on any specific level.
Or am I missing some factor that makes this not work.
Wouldn't just having a max number of castings per spell level work? You can use what what ever Pathfinder has listed for that class/level + N. So if N = 5 then a 3rd level wizard could cast at most 7 2nd level spells per day. A twentieth level sorcerer could cast 11 spells on any specific level.
Or am I missing some factor that makes this not work.
it could work but it feels a bit clunky while at the same time requiring double book keeping for both spell points and number of uses per spell level.
Another option is the true sorcery system. The damage spells have less flavor, but it makes some of the other specialties really cool. Being an illusionist with that system was really fun.
it could work but it feels a bit clunky while at the same time requiring double book keeping for both spell points and number of uses per spell level.
I see what you mean by double bookkeeping. The problem is that I don't see how it would possible to limit the number of spells of a certain level cast per day without keeping track of said castings. To decrease bookkeeping you can the daily limit be for all spells no matter the level.
0th level spells wouldn't count. The issue with this is the number needed to allow even the normal allotment for a decent level caster will give too many potential 1st level spells for someone's taste. One compromise is spells divided into Tiers, say three and have a different limit for each tier.Of course the real issue is, no system can please all the players all the time. I think I am going to study all of the systems people have posted here.
This system has been working well for my group with a few small mods:
Houserule Handbooks: Spell Points
The eldritch dissonance prevents repetitive hammering of the spells pretty well. We have only been using this for a couple months but it has worked so far..
This system has been working well for my group with a few small mods:
Super Genius Guide to Spell Points
The eldritch dissonance prevents repetitive hammering of the spells pretty well. We have only been using this for a couple months but it has worked so far..
Linkified that for ya!
Bah! Beat me to the punch :(