My Half-Orc Barbarian has a bite attack from Toothy. If he uses it as a secondary attack during a full-attack action which he strikes first with his greatsword, I believe it is a -5 penalty to the bite attack. What is the negative modifier (if any) to the greatwword attack? Thanks.
My Half-Orc Barbarian has a bite attack from Toothy. If he uses it as a secondary attack during a full-attack action which he strikes first with his greatsword, I believe it is a -5 penalty to the bite attack. What is the negative modifier (if any) to the greatwword attack? Thanks.
There is no penalty to his primary weapon attack when using his secondary bite attack. If the barbarian is + 6 to hit with his greatsword (for BAB and strength), then he can attack with it at +6 and his bite at +1 to hit.
My Half-Orc Barbarian has a bite attack from Toothy. If he uses it as a secondary attack during a full-attack action which he strikes first with his greatsword, I believe it is a -5 penalty to the bite attack. What is the negative modifier (if any) to the greatwword attack? Thanks.
From SRD:
"When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."So, I'd say, assuming you don't have the feat, that the main melee weapon gets a -4 to its attack, while the bite gets an additional -8 (with TWF feat, it be -2 to both)
Edit: Actually, I think the bite doesn't get the additional -8, misread the SRD entry. the weapon should get the -4 though
My Half-Orc Barbarian has a bite attack from Toothy. If he uses it as a secondary attack during a full-attack action which he strikes first with his greatsword, I believe it is a -5 penalty to the bite attack. What is the negative modifier (if any) to the greatwword attack? Thanks.From SRD:
"When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."So, I'd say, assuming you don't have the feat, that the main melee weapon gets a -4 to its attack, while the bite gets an additional -8 (with TWF feat, it be -2 to both)
Edit: Actually, I think the bite doesn't get the additional -8, misread the SRD entry. the weapon should get the -4 though
I do believe the references to Two Weapon Fighting are outdated and erroneus. I think its in the FAQ?
The Bestiary, I believe, has the correct rules for this, and if you look at the statblocks contained in it you will see that none of the creatures with attack profiles including a weapon and a natural attack suffer TWF penalties (for example, see a Human Skeleton, remembering it take a -2 for a broken weapon).
Hmm, usually the guys over at the d20pfsrd are good at tracking erratas and dev-posts that clarify/change rules, so I'm a little surprised this wasn't caught if it is true
PRD
"In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."
PRD Universal Monster Rules
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
So the Combat Section is an updated rule from 3.5, but the more Specific rules for Natural Weapons are in the Bestiary. I will try and find a Dev post on this to break the tie.
There have been numerous posts by Paizo Devs on this issue, and the reference to TWF in the Core Rulebook is erroneous. The Bestiary is correct; there's no additional penalty when attacking with manufactured weapons and natural attacks.
Got it - Bestairy is correct Question from Hogarth followed by answers from James Jacobs
So no TWF penalties, just count them as Secondary attacks (-5 to hit until player takes Mulitattack to reduce the penalty to -2)
Thanks for the find, its interesting. You should also switch to the next page in that thread as theres another post from JJ.
So normal attacks for the weapon and a -5 on the natural weapons, as long as they don't use the same limbs as the weapon.
Multiattack requires three or more natural attacks, so the half-orc can't get it.
The rule in the PRD - COMBAT SECTION does NOT contradict the rule in the bestiary, the PRD mentions UNARMED STRIKES, not NATURAL ATTACKS.
Basically if you are using unarmed strikes with a wielded weapon you get all the usual TWF penalties, though I am not sure how that should work with a 2handed weapon, since there are not really rules for TWF with a 2hand weapon. (I houserule it by treating it as a one hand weapon for this purpose, including PA damage bonus, TWF penalties and STR damage bonus)
For natural attacks it is pretty much like the poster above me said it.
The rule in the PRD - COMBAT SECTION does NOT contradict the rule in the bestiary, the PRD mentions UNARMED STRIKES, not NATURAL ATTACKS.
Basically if you are using unarmed strikes with a wielded weapon you get all the usual TWF penalties, though I am not sure how that should work with a 2handed weapon, since there are not really rules for TWF with a 2hand weapon. (I houserule it by treating it as a one hand weapon for this purpose, including PA damage bonus, TWF penalties and STR damage bonus)
For natural attacks it is pretty much like the poster above me said it.
Seriously thats a silly interpretation.
When you use a melee weapon and unarmed strike, then you get the TWF penalty anyway, no matter if you use a natural attack or not. There wouldn't be a reason to specifically state it again.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
But it has been stated by James Jacobs that the Bestairy rule is correct.
Thanks for the ruling. There is no way I would have figured all that out on my own.