Weapon and Armor Proficiency Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.
We are playing on the Forgotten Realms and i have a Helm cleric in my group. The favorite weapon of Helm is a bastard sword and by the Pathfinder rules the cleric gets the proficiency with it.
Question: Does he get the martial or exotic proficiency ?
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.We are playing on the Forgotten Realms and i have a Helm cleric in my group. The favorite weapon of Helm is a bastard sword and by the Pathfinder rules the cleric gets the proficiency with it.
Question: Does he get the martial or exotic proficiency ?
Exotic. The martial isn't actually proficiency with it, it's just an extra rule that it can be used as a martial weapon two handed.
Seconded.
Happy whacking.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.We are playing on the Forgotten Realms and i have a Helm cleric in my group. The favorite weapon of Helm is a bastard sword and by the Pathfinder rules the cleric gets the proficiency with it.
Question: Does he get the martial or exotic proficiency ?
Your Cleric gets to use the sword as a two handed weapon at no penalties. To use it one handed he would still need to spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Prof.
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Weapon and Armor Proficiency Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.We are playing on the Forgotten Realms and i have a Helm cleric in my group. The favorite weapon of Helm is a bastard sword and by the Pathfinder rules the cleric gets the proficiency with it.
Question: Does he get the martial or exotic proficiency ?
He is proficient with it. If you're proficient with a weapon, you can use it in its normal fashion. A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, therefore a proficient user (of appropriate size) can wield it in one hand.
He gets martial and exotic proficiency with it.
There is no reason he would be "half-proficient" with it.
Its a hand and a half sword?
:)
He gets martial and exotic proficiency with it.
There is no reason he would be "half-proficient" with it.
He isn't... effectively the Cleric gets Martial Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) for free. As stated the favoured weapon is used two-handed by the deity in question and that is what the Cleric gets.
He isn't... effectively the Cleric gets Martial Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) for free. As stated the favoured weapon is used two-handed by the deity in question and that is what the Cleric gets.
Helm has a favored weapon, the Bastard Sword. What he does with it is his business.
"Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity."
The favored weapon is a Bastard Sword. The cleric is proficient with the Bastard Sword.
If you look in the Equipment section you'll see that the Bastard Sword is a one-handed Exotic weapon. In the text it even states "it is an exotic weapon."
In addition to that, there is an option that "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." That does not mean it's a martial weapon, so regardless of how the deity chooses to wield it, it's still exotic, and the Cleric is still proficient.
He isn't... effectively the Cleric gets Martial Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) for free. As stated the favoured weapon is used two-handed by the deity in question and that is what the Cleric gets.Helm has a favored weapon, the Bastard Sword. What he does with it is his business.
"Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity."
The favored weapon is a Bastard Sword. The cleric is proficient with the Bastard Sword.
If you look in the Equipment section you'll see that the Bastard Sword is a one-handed Exotic weapon. In the text it even states "it is an exotic weapon."
In addition to that, there is an option that "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." That does not mean it's a martial weapon, so regardless of how the deity chooses to wield it, it's still exotic, and the Cleric is still proficient
It does mean its treated as a Martial weapon to use two handed, to use one handed requires exotic weapon proficiency.
its a flavour thing...if the deity uses the weapon two handed then I would assume so would the Cleric, trying to be closer to his deity's ideals and such...all my opinion of course. As all the pictures that I can find depicting Helm have not a shield in sight my assumption would be that the Cleric gets the Martial Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) for free and would take normal non proficiency penalties if used one handed but just fine and dandy using it two handed.
It does mean its treated as a Martial weapon to use two handed, to use one handed requires exotic weapon proficiency.
You can use any one-handed weapon with two hands. The only reason for it to be martial is if you are not proficient with the bastard sword. Because a Cleric of Helm is proficient with the bastard sword, this does not apply.
As all the pictures that I can find depicting Helm have not a shield in sight
Helm: The Watcher from Forgotten Realms wikia. No shield, but one handed.
If Helm does usually use two hands, it's probably not because he's not proficient with the thing. And if a Cleric chooses to emulate that for flavor, then great. I don't think that's a good reason to penalize the clerics who want to use the weapon normally.
He isn't... effectively the Cleric gets Martial Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) for free. As stated the favoured weapon is used two-handed by the deity in question and that is what the Cleric gets.Helm has a favored weapon, the Bastard Sword. What he does with it is his business.
"Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity."
The favored weapon is a Bastard Sword. The cleric is proficient with the Bastard Sword.
If you look in the Equipment section you'll see that the Bastard Sword is a one-handed Exotic weapon. In the text it even states "it is an exotic weapon."
In addition to that, there is an option that "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." That does not mean it's a martial weapon, so regardless of how the deity chooses to wield it, it's still exotic, and the Cleric is still proficient.
This is probably the best reading. As Grick says, it's listed under Exotic one-handed, so you get Exotic proficiency with it. You can use it one- or two-handed, because you can use all one-handed weapons with two hands. The special case that someone who is proficient with all* martial weapons can use it two handed is irrelevant, since you're not proficient with all martial weapons.
*Why do I say "all" martial weapons? Because there is no way to become proficient with a bastard sword as a martial weapon. The Martial Weapon Proficiency feat specifically states that you must "Choose a type of martial weapon." A Bastard sword is not a martial weapon, so may not be chosen. However, if you're proficient with all martial weapons, you can use anything that can be used as a martial weapon (even though it really isn't).
The cleric is not being penalised. He's simply getting what all other clerics with the War Domain would have gotten, a free Martial weapon proficiency. It's a check againt choosing Helm for no other reason than to get a free popular exotic.If Helm does usually use two hands, it's probably not because he's not proficient with the thing. And if a Cleric chooses to emulate that for flavor, then great. I don't think that's a good reason to penalize the clerics who want to use the weapon normally.
The Pathfinder War domain doesn't grant that. All PF clerics have proficiency with their deity's weapon, whether it's a simple weapon they'd already have proficiency with (Pharasma's dagger) or exotic (Calistria's whip).
The 3.5 War domain granted that, but that's not relevant here.
The cleric is not being penalised. He's simply getting what all other clerics with the War Domain would have gotten, a free Martial weapon proficiency.
The War Domain doesn't grant martial weapon proficiency. At level 8, the Weapon Master ability grants you a combat feat for rds/day. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a combat feat. Martial weapon proficiency isn't.
You guys are inventing rules that contradict the book based on lore from another campaign setting that isn't actually stated anywhere in the thread.
The cleric is not being penalised. He's simply getting what all other clerics with the War Domain would have gotten, a free Martial weapon proficiency.The War Domain doesn't grant martial weapon proficiency. At level 8, the Weapon Master ability grants you a combat feat for rds/day. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a combat feat. Martial weapon proficiency isn't.
You guys are inventing rules that contradict the book based on lore from another campaign setting that isn't actually stated anywhere in the thread.
Martial weapon proficiency is a combat feat, and the rules aren't invented, they're just from the wrong edition, so irrelevant.
There is no such critter as Martial Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword.
There is however Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
So lacking any other options a cleric would gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword.
This, there is no such animal as Martial Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. It simply does not exist, the weapon has a property that allows it to be used as if it were a martial two handed weapon, if you can use martial two handed weapons.
That is like saying, you need the trip: weapon x feat to use that weapon's trip property.
This is really rather simple. I honestly don't know why these threads keep happening.
Martial Weapon Proficiency (Combat)
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Combat)
Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
So, you choose one Martial or Exotic weapon, depending on the feat. That means each feat only works with specific types of weapons. Martial with Martial Weapons, Exotic with Exotic Weapons.
The only question that is, is what type of weapon is a Bastard Sword. For that, we check the table. The table is divided into different types of weapons, and each type of weapon is listed only in it's type.
Exotic Weapons -> One-Handed Melee Weapons -> Sword, bastard
That is extremely plain and there's no wriggle room. A bastard sword is an exotic one-handed weapon The fact that it can also be used as a two-handed Martial weapon has no bearing on it. It's a special exception to that weapon, just as a quarterstaff has the special exception that it can be used as a monk weapon. The type of the weapon is determined by the weapons chart, and that is explicit. A bastard sword is a one-handed exotic weapon. If you get proficiency with it, you get proficiency with it as a one-handed exotic weapon because that is what it is. There's no difference between that and a dwarven war axe. Both are exotic one-handed weapons, and both require Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use (and both grant that type of proficiency to a cleric if the god uses those weapons).
EDIT :
Just to hammer this point home.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Note the bolded part explicitly says it is an exotic weapon. The italicized bit says it can be used as a martial weapon, it does NOT say it IS a martial weapon. It can be used as a martial weapon. Just as certain one-handed weapons can be treated as a light weapon for TWF, but that does not MAKE them light weapons. They are only used as light weapons.
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Martial weapon proficiency is a combat feat, and the rules aren't invented, they're just from the wrong edition, so irrelevant.
My mistake, the Table:Feats does not have the Combat asterisk on Martial Weapon Proficiency. The feat text does include it, though.
Okay if we want to go strictly by Pathfinder logic, a Cleric of Helm would get Helm's favorite weapon, a Bastard sword wielded martial style. Because that's how Helm wields it. And what true cleric of Helm would not want to emulate their patron? IF they want it one-handed... spend the feat slot to do so.The cleric is not being penalised. He's simply getting what all other clerics with the War Domain would have gotten, a free Martial weapon proficiency.The War Domain doesn't grant martial weapon proficiency. At level 8, the Weapon Master ability grants you a combat feat for rds/day. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a combat feat. Martial weapon proficiency isn't.
You guys are inventing rules that contradict the book based on lore from another campaign setting that isn't actually stated anywhere in the thread.
Except styles aren't a weapon. You're either proficient in the weapon or you aren't. You're either proficient with the bastard sword or you aren't. And as I and others have pointed out, being proficient with the bastard sword means you have exotic proficiency with it, and being proficient with martial weapons means you can choose to wield a bastard sword two-handed with no penalty instead of being unable to wield it without penalty.
Keep in mind that wielding a one-handed weapon two handed is a perfectly valid way of significantly increasing your damage without losing the flexibility that upgrading to a two-handed weapon would cost. So yes, all clerics who want to emulate Helm would want to wield their bastard swords two-handed most of the time, but they're still trained in how to use it one-handed.
Martial weapon proficiency is a combat feat, and the rules aren't invented, they're just from the wrong edition, so irrelevant.My mistake, the Table:Feats does not have the Combat asterisk on Martial Weapon Proficiency. The feat text does include it, though.
And I didn't even look at the table. I FAQed this so that it'll hopefully be matched up in a future printing. Since the text takes precedence it clearly is a combat feat, but it's always confusing when the text doesn't match the table.
Okay if we want to go strictly by Pathfinder logic, a Cleric of Helm would get Helm's favorite weapon, a Bastard sword wielded martial style. Because that's how Helm wields it. And what true cleric of Helm would not want to emulate their patron? IF they want it one-handed... spend the feat slot to do so.
No, his weapon is a bastard sword. If he chooses to use both hands, he can. Just like anyone who is proficient with the bastard sword. Just like his clerics.
There is nothing that suggests that Helm is not proficient with his bastard sword. (In fact, nothing so far in this thread suggests he doesn't use it with one hand, there's even an artists rendition of him using it one handed)