I'm looking for some advice on my current build for my monk. I've read through most of the "monk's suck" threads and still want to play the class, so please only constructive feedback, this doesn't need to turn into one of those threads.
From what I've been told we are starting at 7, or to at least start the char at 7 then we can adjust from there when the campaign starts and that we are using just pathfinder unless the 3.5 piece can be converted over. We use a roll method for stats and I got extremely lucky with mine, that's why they are higher than most.
Current Build:
Lvl 7 Dwarf Qinggong Monk
Str 18
Dex 17 (16 base +1 at lvl 4)
Con 18 (16 base +2 racial)
Int 14
Wis 20 (18 base +2 racial)
Cha 7
HP 77
Feats:
Dodge
Toughness
Mobility
Quick Draw
Spring Attack
Power Attack
I know I'm missing 1, haven't had a chance to ask our DM if he'll let me take the INA or Sun School from Complete Warrior.
For gear I'm not sure what he'll let us have yet. I was looking at getting a Monk's Robe first. Then either the wis headband or a str/dex belt. For weapons I was looking at a Kama and Nunchaka, but then I noticed the brass knuckles and had a question about them. If I took them would I still need the Kama/Nunchakas and if not then I could get rid of Quick Draw.
I've been reading a few threads concerning the BKs and was thinking of asking the DM about possibly doing the handwrap/footwrap things that people have mentioned, would keep with the flavor of the monk.
Ki Powers:
Swapped out Slow Fall for Scorching Ray (8d6 at lvl 7 then 12d6 at lvl 11). Going to swap out high jump at 8 for restoration
Was thinking of changing the dodge to imp grapple and mobility to imp trip/disarm. This means i would have to get rid of Spring attack and I'm not sure what I would put in its place.
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1: If your going for a AC build. Thats what it looks like.
Halfling
Str 16-2=14
Dex 18+2=20
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 9+2=11
AC 21 with out items.
HP: avg. 52.5 ( avg. form above 66.5)
Init: +5
Feats:
MB1: Dodge
1:Weapon Finesse
MB2:Combat Reflexes
3:Stand Still
5:Step Up
MB6:Improved Grapple
7:Improved Initiative
Pick up Power Attack at 9.
If your going for a Damage build.
Dwarf
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 16+2=18
Int 14
Wis 16+2=18
Cha 9-2=5
AC: 19
HP: same as orignal.
Feats:
Trade: Weapon Finesses for Improved Initiative 2nd level
Improved Initiative for Toughness 7th level
2:Never ever take mobility, or spring attack, The cost is just to high. For somthing that will not be of much use.
3:Improved Grapple is will worth it along with Improved Trip. The abiltiy to control or stop movement. Is far more inportant thats why I recomend taking both stand still. and step up. They move more then 5ft away stand still to keap them in melee. They move 5ft step up immeade action to them. Locking down almost any one after your in melee from leaven with out you wanting them to.
4:Don't touch spell like abilitys. On a melee character with a 10ft pole. They will bite you in the end.
5: I'll let you figure out way Wis base monks are a trap. That takes to long. And my spelling is not good enough for it.
2:Never ever take mobility, or spring attack, The cost is just to high. For somthing that will not be of much use.
3:Improved Grapple is will worth it along with Improved Trip. The abiltiy to control or stop movement. Is far more inportant thats why I recomend taking both stand still. and step up. They move more then 5ft away stand still to keap them in melee. They move 5ft step up immeade action to them. Locking down almost any one after your in melee from leaven with out you wanting them to.
4:Don't touch spell like abilitys. On a melee character with a 10ft pole. They will bite you in the end.5: I'll let you figure out way Wis base monks are a trap. That takes to long. And my spelling is not good enough for it.
Thanks for the feedback, I was leaning a little more toward the defensive side so that I could take a few hits and not die instantly, I'll switch the dex and wis base stats, that's a good idea, I didn't think of that.
Spring attacked looked good at first due to not provoking any AoOs, but the more I looked at it, the less it appealed to me. I'll just go for the improved's then.
In regard to the bolded part, where does the 10ft fit in? Scorching Ray has a 25ft reach, so I'd be able to pick the guy off with without having to be next to him, other than the 10ft reach possibly interrupting the action.
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All of your monk powers become Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): AoO.
You monk powers start out Supernatural Abilities (Su): No AoO
And a few notes on some abilitys.
slow fall (4th), Bark Skin is the only good replace ment for slow fall. Even then it's just ok.
high jump (5th), This lets you over come terrain in closing.
wholeness of body (7th), Self healing is never a bad thing. It is a bit under powered. There are a few things here that are good.
diamond body (11th), You will want to keap this
abundant step (12th), You are trading Su for Sp and gets AoO. So you lose it's main function.
diamond soul (13th), You will want to keap this.
quivering palm (15th), Trade this out if you want.
timeless body (17th), Trade this out if you want.
tongue of the sun and moon (17th), Trade this out if you want.
empty body (19th), You are trading Su for Sp and gets AoO. So you lose it's main function.
and perfect self (20th).
Don't touch with a 10ft pole. Is a old expresion. Meaning I'm not touching it. Im not even going to think about it. And im ready to run if some one does think about it.
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Never trade out granted powers for spell like abilitys. This will hurt your character. Scorching ray hase good damage and good range. How ever the abilitys you can take vs. the abilitys they replace. The abilitys they are replaceing for the most part are much better then the ones you get.
Yeah, I'm sure that Slow fall or Wholeness of body is better than Barkskin or quickened True Strike at level 11...
With stats so awesome, you can do pretty much whatever you want. Spring Attack + true strike can potentially grant you a nasty auto-win on a combat maneuver, without attack of opportunity.I recommend Treantmonk's guide if your goal is optimization.
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Never trade out granted powers for spell like abilitys. This will hurt your character. Scorching ray hase good damage and good range. How ever the abilitys you can take vs. the abilitys they replace. The abilitys they are replaceing for the most part are much better then the ones you get.Yeah, I'm sure that Slow fall or Wholeness of body is better than Barkskin or quickened True Strike at level 11...
With stats so awesome, you can do pretty much whatever you want. Spring Attack + true strike can potentially grant you a nasty auto-win on a combat maneuver, without attack of opportunity.
I recommend Treantmonk's guide if your goal is optimization.
The problem is. You just spent one round buffing befor combat. And it affects one attack. Talk to any one that runs a battle cleric, or oracle of battle and ask them if they wold ever use it. More often then not the response is no.
Str/Dex to hitWis Save DC
You can't have both. Even when you start with a 18 in each. One will be the focus of items and per. level ability points. There is no way to keap both your save DC. and your to hit high.
True Strike.
Casting Time 1 standard action.
+20 insight bonus to hit on your next single attack.
Combat Rounds W/true strike
1: True Strike move in to melee
2: First attack gets a +20 to hit. Stunning Fist low level this will work. Stunning fist high level not so much. Save bonus out passes the save DC.
combat Rounds W/O true strike
1: Move to melee Single Attack stunning fist.
2: Attack Normal.
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The problem is. You just spent one round buffing befor combat. And it affects one attack. Talk to any one that runs a battle cleric, or oracle of battle and ask them if they wold ever use it. More often then not the response is no.
True Strike.
Casting Time 1 standard action.
+20 insight bonus to hit on your next single attack.
Combat Rounds W/true strike
1: True Strike move in to melee
2: First attack gets a +20 to hit. Stunning Fist low level this will work. Stunning fist high level not so much. Save bonus out passes the save DC.
combat Rounds W/O true strike
1: Move to melee Single Attack stunning fist.
2: Attack Normal.
Nope.
Round 1 :
- Quickened true strike. Takes a swift action, can do it 3/day.
- Spring attack + disarm, +20 to hit.
- Get back from where you came with the ennemy's weapon in your hands.
- Let your friends gang up the poor unarmed fellow for the end of this round.
Easy to do at level 11 with Quicken spell-like ability feat, not taking into account that some Ki powers are just cool and stick to the character's concept ; also being really useful as soon as the player understands how to use them.
Ki powers are useful, powerful and flavorful. Saying to someone asking for advice that they suck hard and that he should just do 5'feet step and FoB isn't helping him.
Ki powers are just cool and stick to the character's concept
This is the key here, I don't just like to min/max my guy, I like to RP him quite a bit. His backstory (which I haven't quite finished writing yet) plays a big part in what he is doing and what he currently has. If the DM allows me to take the Sun School feat that I was thinking about, part of this char's backstory would be him training in a monastery devoted to the sun, and that's where scorching ray would play in. "The monks have studied the sun and mastered it's techniques so much so that they have the ability to send scorching rays from the tips of their fingers", something along those lines. It's also just cool to be able to say to a guy "BOOM, that's just a taste of whats coming".
As a question about spell-like ability feats (namely metamagic), do they benefit a melee char? Say I took the maximize spell metamagic feat and used it for the scorching ray, at level 11 he would be doing 72 (12d6 maxed) pts of damage for just 2 ki points, that's a significant chunk of damage, and to top if off scorching ray has no save, to me that's better than being able to slow my fall or jump around the field.
High Jump:At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk gains a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
To me 1 extra ki point to do damage is much better than being able to jump farther or higher and since we get abundant step at 12, it would be moot anyway, I could just teleport to where I need to be rather than jump
Round 1 :
- Quickened true strike. Takes a swift action, can do it 3/day.
- Spring attack + disarm, +20 to hit.
- Get back from where you came with the ennemy's weapon in your hands.
- Let your friends gang up the poor unarmed fellow for the end of this round.
Yeah then turn the weapon over to someone who can actually use it, if we can determine what it is, then use the guys own weapon against him (if its better than what they had before)
Thank you two for the feedback, keep it coming, the more the merrier
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Ki powers are just cool and stick to the character's conceptThis is the key here, I don't just like to min/max my guy, I like to RP him quite a bit.
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As a question about spell-like ability feats (namely metamagic), do they benefit a melee char? Say I took the maximize spell metamagic feat and used it for the scorching ray, at level 11 he would be doing 72 (12d6 maxed) pts of damage for just 2 ki points, that's a significant chunk of damage, and to top if off scorching ray has no save, to me that's better than being able to slow my fall or jump around the field.
Ah, don't worry. With stats like yours, seriously, you don't even need to minimax if the DM doesn't really boost the difficulty of encounters. I have a fat, hobo qinggong drunken monk of the moutain's lotus (yeah, lots of archetypes here) with 19/8/18/8/20/12 (counting magic items, at level 11...), and the two games I used him were really fun. Building him was hard though because of weird stats and lots of feats with Dex/Int prerequisites.
A Ki power you would take time to think about at level 11 is Dragon's breath. Elemental fist (feat or Ki power) at level 12/13 or an amulet of flamming fists for the Sun thematic.Also, nasty (but mostly fun) combo with Hamatula feats and an alchemist pal with Detonate and share extracts : he makes you drink the Detonate extract and runs away, you attack and impale an ennemy with your fingers, thus instantly engaging a grapple. Alchemist's next turn, the energy explodes from your body, and the poor grappled dude is right close to you for a shitload of D8 and a lowered reflex save. Just think about preparing a bit of Fire Resistance beforehand.
You can't use metamagic feats on Ki powers. When I talked about "Quicken spell-like ability", this is a monster feat the monk can take because he qualifies for it, not a metamagic feat. Lets you select a low level spell-like ability you can then cast as a swift action 3/day. Remember that this is a swift action you can't use for anything else monky.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/quicken-spell-like-ability
A Ki power you would take time to think about at level 11 is Dragon's breath. Elemental fist (feat or Ki power) at level 12/13 or an amulet of flamming fists for the Sun thematic.
I thought about the dragon's breath, but it still maxes out at the 12d6 and has a reflex save for half, granted it can be a cone/line type spell to hit multiple enemies, that's the best thing it has over scorching ray in my opinion.
Also, nasty (but mostly fun) combo with Hamatula feats and an alchemist pal with Detonate and share extracts : he makes you drink the Detonate extract and runs away, you attack and impale an ennemy with your fingers, thus instantly engaging a grapple. Alchemist's next turn, the energy explodes from your body, and the poor grappled dude is right close to you for a s*!$load of D8 and a lowered reflex save. Just think about preparing a bit of Fire Resistance beforehand.
now that just sounds mean and cruel, I LOVE it, I was looking at the hamatula stuff, wasn't sure if it would have been worth it and basically for this to work you'd have to take the hamatulatsu feat as well right?
You can't use metamagic feats on Ki powers. When I talked about "Quicken spell-like ability", this is a monster feat the monk can take because he qualifies for it, not a metamagic feat. Lets you select a low level spell-like ability you can then cast as a swift action 3/day. Remember that this is a...
Damn, of course they don't would make them too powerful
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I thought about the dragon's breath, but it still maxes out at the 12d6 and has a reflex save for half, granted it can be a cone/line type spell to hit multiple enemies, that's the best thing it has over scorching ray in my opinion.
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now that just sounds mean and cruel, I LOVE it, I was looking at the hamatula stuff, wasn't sure if it would have been worth it and basically for this to work you'd have to take the hamatulatsu feat as well right?
You could also eventually think about Point-blank shot for a +1 to att/dam with each scorching ray under 30 feet. The feat would also work with shurikens (flurry of little metallic suns !), for which you already have nice offensive stats, especially since shurikens apply full strength bonus to each attack. A shame they are so hard to use/enchant, but since you already get Quick Draw...
You don't even have to take the hamatula feats, you can also just move and grapple the dude, works well too. Less fun than grabbing him by the ribbs from the inside though, especially because I think you can stack Stunning fist and Hamatula strike. Hit + Stun + Grapple in one attack (you could even continue flurry the dude if you were able to launch a FoB during this round, I think !), then boom on the poor, horribly stunned creature.
EVIL, I SAY !
You don't even have to take the hamatula feats, you can also just move and grapple the dude, works well too. Less fun than grabbing him by the ribbs from the inside though, especially because I think you can stack Stunning fist and Hamatula strike. Hit + Stun + Grapple in one attack (you could even continue flurry the dude if you were able to launch a FoB during this round, I think !), then boom on the poor, horribly stunned creature.EVIL, I SAY !
ohh question about FoB now that you mention it, can that be used while you are grappling someone? I could have sworn I read somewhere that you could still flurry while you were grappled with someone, now I'm not able to find it anywhere
Vows, do you recommend any specific vows?
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You don't even have to take the hamatula feats, you can also just move and grapple the dude, works well too. Less fun than grabbing him by the ribbs from the inside though, especially because I think you can stack Stunning fist and Hamatula strike. Hit + Stun + Grapple in one attack (you could even continue flurry the dude if you were able to launch a FoB during this round, I think !), then boom on the poor, horribly stunned creature.EVIL, I SAY !
ohh question about FoB now that you mention it, can that be used while you are grappling someone? I could have sworn I read somewhere that you could still flurry while you were grappled with someone, now I'm not able to find it anywhere
Vows, do you recommend any specific vows?
You can use light weapons when grappled. Unarmed are light weapons. So yes you can flurry when grappled.
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I would seriously consider looking at working towards Greater Trip at level 9: with Greater trip and Ki Throw (not to mention Improved Ki Throw), you can lay down some SERIOUS smack on your enemies, while controlling their positioning around you -- and allow your allies to do extra damage (with AoO's from Greater Trip as well as bonuses for hitting prone targets).
Suggested feat progression:
1) Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus)
1) Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus)
1) Combat Expertise (1st level)
1) Combat Reflexes (Monk)
2) Dodge (Monk)
3) Improved Trip
5) Ki Throw
6) Improved Grapple (Monk)
7) Improved Ki Throw
9) Greater Trip
10) Medusa's Wrath (Monk)
Best advice I can give it to read the Treantmonks guide to Monks. It is a little outdated as it does not include anything from the advance players guide or Ultimate Magic, but is still worth reading.
High jump and slow fall are often underestimated abilities. High jump has a couple of advantages over abundant step. The first being you get it at a much lower level. Second is you can still attack afterwards, and third it does have to use Ki. Slow fall is mainly for picking up Spider Step, and latter cloud step. Both are useful to a Monk.
You also do not have any combat maneuver feats. Remember that after 3rd level you are become a full BAB class when performing combat maneuvers. What you are going to want to do is use flurry of blows when possible, but use maneuvers when moving.
Also when taking the Monks bonus feats you can skip the prerequisites. This is a huge advantage and you should make full use of it. This will allow you to pick up Improve Trip, Ki Throw or even Improved Ki throw without having the prerequisite.
You should also be pumping your strength at every level. You need a higher Strength then a fighter because he has other bonuses you will not get.
Toughness is probably the best feat for a first level monk because they do not have the +1 BAB to qualify for the better combat feats.
I would keep the WIS at 20 because a lot of your abilities are based on WIS. The saves for most of your special attacks like stunning blow are based off of WIS. It also improves your AC and CMD.
The biggest problem with the Monk is he is such a MAD class. With Stats like yours you can build a kick ass monk.
This is all great advice thanks, I did originally go through treantmonks guife for the base build then did some custimizing on what I thought looked good, then more and more reading led me to think the stuff I was looking at wasn't actually that good.
I was looking at the ki throw stuff, being able to just whip the guy around to the ground is awesome.