My mount keeps dying. And by dying I mean like every combat.
Barding is obvious to increase its AC.
Considering taking Mounted Shield next level (I use a Heavy Shield), but that would mean I would be giving up Power Attack for another 2 levels (I use a Lance).
I've even gone as far as doing Aid Others (+4 because I have the Helpful Halfing Trait), to increase its AC but I can't always do that because I use a Lance.
And since I use a Swift action to activate some of my abilities I can't use Mounted Combat to avoid the attack in the same round (its an Immediate Action and you can't make a Swift + Immediate in the same turn). [Use a Swift action, attack enemy, enemy attacks back and I can't use Mounted Combat].
Am I relegated to the fact that I will need a new mount for each combat encounter?
It's likely a problem of your GM actively targeting the mount rather than you. You can make Ride checks to avoid hits, the mount doesn't have that option. Barding is a good idea, but be sure your mount has the proper training to use it. Beyond mounted shield and magic items, as well as giving it feats like Dodge or Improved Natural Armor, I'm not sure how much else you could actually do.
You CAN use Mounted Combat, it just affects your Swift Action usage NEXT turn.
You use a Swift on your turn, and when an enemy is going to attack your Mount you use MC as an Immediate. EDIT: I assumed you were a Cavalier, but you didn`t say... I don`t think Cav`s need to be constantly using Swifts every round of combat...?
What level are you at anyways? Mounted Shield could be good, Shield Focus applies to it as well...
The Mount itself should/could take defensive Feats like Dodge, Mobility, Increased Natural Armor, TOUGHNESS, not to use Fighting Defensively / Full Defense whenever possible... + the Armor Proficiency Feat to get Heavy Armor. You can have your Mount do stuff like Ready actions to Bite + 5` Step away when attacked... And don`t let your Mount get Flanked. Taking Ride-By Attack also avoids AoO`s AFAIK.
At higher levels, the Mount can have spells and magic items improve it`s defenses, though I think Cav`s specifically don`t have Share Spell so you can`t use Wands of Shield or Mirror Image on your Mount (though you could try to convince your GM to let your Mount itself learn UMD). Area effects like Fog or Darkness give more enemies Miss Chance vs. your Mount (you might want Blind-Fight if you can`t bypass those effects completely yourself). If the Mount itself doesn`t need to attack, you can get alot of mileage out of plain-vanilla Invisibility. This is besides Enhancement bonuses to Armor and Natural Armor.
The fact they are wasting actions killing your Mount instead of you is of benefit to your character.
That you are still alive shows that such a tactic isn`t very effective,
so if I was your GM I wouldn`t be trying to kill your Mount all the time, I would focus on higher priority targets, like the dudes with class levels for whom the mount is just a side-show. I would mention this to your GM, and just say `you don`t need to target my mount to stop me from getting killed, just do what`s most effective because it`s a roleplaying drag to have the mount alwasy being targetted/killed... my character may have to turn himself in to the druidic humane society, otherwise...`. That you actually were spending your actions Aiding Another to your Mount`s AC rather than doing something effective should show the GM that constantly attacking your Mount is silly (though if the enemies knew you would waste your actions in such a manner, it is a reasonable strategy to focus on the mount).
In large-scale maneuvering battles, it would make more sense to target Mounts (who are usually `normal` mounts and die even easier), but in small-scale skirmishes I don`t see the rationale to target a Mount, especially when they can be targetting a limited number of PCs instead. I don`t know if the GM is meta-gaming with knowledge that Cavalier Charge abilities are dependent on Mounted Charge, but if so, he shouldn`t really be doing so, at least in most encounters where the enemy don`t have specific knowledge of the effectiveness of your Mounted Charges.
You're playing Kingmaker I think... Does it help for me to tell you that I stopped naming my horses and am now riding Old No. 5? If your character is not especially mount-dependent, rather than waste a character development resource, I'd just buy multiple horses and call it good. Also, don't worry about Combat Training either. Horses die, just make you sure you have a spare mount and call it good.
We need to know what your Char is .
We need to know what your Char is .
Cavalier Halfling Outrider
We need to know what your Char is .Cavalier Halfling Outrider
Ok if that is true and your mount is your animal companion . I think your GM may have it in for your mount . A cavalier's mount is pretty tuff .I guess the next think we need to know is what level you are your biuld . Also how are you building your mounts feats .
What is killing your mount ? Is it melee attacks or spells ? Are you using ride by attack or you charging into melee range and staying there ?
Don't feel that the DM "has it in" for my mount. I have a good AC so looks like creatures just attack the 'animal' instead of the guy with armor with a big stick is the way I see it.
Effectively 5th, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Pretty much after I Ride-by Attack my mount dies from whatever is there; so far melee mostly.
Animal Companion usually dies just after I level so I'm relegated to use purchased mounts and then non-special ability animal companions until I level again.
Talk to the DM about it, in a civil manner.
If you are doing pretty much what you can for your level and gear access and he still nails your critter right after you get it then it appears you have a problem. "the critters attack the beast because I'm better armored" is still "The DM is targeting my animal companion so I never have it for more than 1 level".
It may be that he doesn't realize it, or it could be he gets a perverse kick out of killing it.
If he realizes it and changes (not that it shouldn't ever be attacked but always killing it to the exclusion of other characters to deny you a class ability permanently is rather.. lame) then you will be OK.. if he says tough crap and continues, then you need to let your PC die next and reroll something that isn't based on mounted combat.
The sad, unfortunate truth is that.. if the DM wants something to die then there is absolutely completely nothing you can do about it.
-S
Assuming wolf mount.
1: feat = toughness. Chain barding gives it an 18AC. Should have 2d8+7hp. (16hp avg)
2: feat = medium armor prof. Upgrade to breastplate gives it 20AC. 3d8+9hp. (22hp avg)
3: evasion. 23AC.
4: +1 Con. 4d8+16hp. (34hp avg)
5: feat = doesn't matter. 5d8+20hp. (43hp avg)
6: 25AC. 6d8+24hp. (51hp avg)
7: 24AC. (you lost 2 points of dex) 6d8+36hp (you gained +4 con) (63hp avg)
8: feat = doesn't matter. 7d8+42hp. (73hp avg)
9: 28AC. +1 Dex. 8d8+48hp. (84hp avg)
10: feat = doesn't matter. 9d8+54hp. (95hp avg)
ETC.
Get Mithril barding as early as possible if you choose to take medium armor prof.
Get Magical barding as early as possible in any and all cases.
You can easily forego the medium armor prof. as it only adds a measly +2 to AC. I find it useful at lower levels, but as your dex, natural armor and access to magic barding rises, the need for that +2 becomes lessened.
I'd also see what the DM thinks of flying mounts once you qualify for them.
Toughness helps a lot if your DM makes you roll HP.
Look for magical items that raise your mounts Dex or Con.
Diehard would probably come in handy also.
Don't feel that the DM "has it in" for my mount. I have a good AC so looks like creatures just attack the 'animal' instead of the guy with armor with a big stick is the way I see it.
Effectively 5th, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Pretty much after I Ride-by Attack my mount dies from whatever is there; so far melee mostly.
Animal Companion usually dies just after I level so I'm relegated to use purchased mounts and then non-special ability animal companions until I level again.
Knowing this, you could take a boar too.
It loses out on the dex, but it has a much better natural AC (+6 for start!) and Ferocity will keep it on its feet longer.You could slap some heavy mithril barding on it asap and not bat an eye, since its only going to max out at a 16 dex anyway.
I just cannot imagine what is attacking your mount that can bring it from 40+ HP to more than its constitution score in the red with a single rounds worth of attacks that isn't also trashing your party. That's (even for a sick pony with a 12 con) 52 hp in a SINGLE round of attacks.
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Yar!
What order is your cavalier?
And with Ride-by-Attack, why are you ending your turn next to enemies?
The Ride skill to avoid an attack is vital, and at 5th level you should have a +10 mod BEFORE adding your dex (5 ranks +2 outrider +3 class skill +? dex). Cavaliers do not take armor check penalties on Ride checks, so no worries there.
I would also invest in items to increase this (such as the Jousting ability for armor, +5 comp to ride checks, costs 3750gp) as well as feats such as Skill Focus: Ride (for +3, +6 at 10th level) and Animal Affinity (for another +2, +4 at 10th level). These are untyped bonuses, so they stack.
What is your preferred animal? Wolf is a common and good option for Halflings at your level. They have a base AC of 17 before barding (10 + 4 natural armor at 5th level + 3 for it's 16 dex at 5th level), so even without using the ride skill to negate attacks, it still shouldn't be getting hit and killed so easily.
Take the 1 week of mourning option. Become so grievously wounded (emotionally) with the deaths of your companion that you cannot do anything by cry for a week, until a wild wolf sneaks in to Oleg's at night to comfort you (new AC mount). Sure, it won’t have Evasion until you level up, but it does gain all the other benefits of you being 5th level (increased NA, increased ability scores, HD, skills, feats). This wolf has 5 HD (no reason for it to be dying that quickly with 5 HD) and it has 3 feats. Put the ability score increase of your choice into Int so that your 3rd feat can be any feat it can do (instead of animal only feats)... Good choices for it's animal feats are: Improved Natural Armor, Dodge, Toughness, and Improved Overrun (so that when you ride by, you make a charge attack against your target, and your mount can run through any other enemy that is blocking your way so that you can still get your full 100' movement, though it has Power Attack as a pre-req). For non-animal-only feats (you can gain them at 5th level if you increased it's Int) I like: Nimble Moves (ignore 5' of difficult terrain) and Acrobatic Step (ignore 20' of difficult terrain) and Charge Through (overrun as a free action).
Also, read up on the use of Acrobatics skill to jump. Jumping is not an action, but done as part of another action. For example: charging. For difficult terrain and bodies that you cannot ignore with Improved overrun and Nimble Moves, you CAN jump over it (need 10' of movement before you can jump, but it makes a world of difference. You mount uses your ride check, or it's acrobatics check, whichever is lower (so keep them both as high as possible... the Run feat for your mount is good as well in this regard).
If your DM allows non-core paizo material, I suggest also picking up Wheeling Charge (from cities of Golarion), which does the same thing as the 3.5 feat "Fleet of Foot", save that Wheeling charge is a feat for the rider to take, while (if 3.5 is allowed) Fleet of Foot is something that your mount could take. These allow you to make up to a 90 degree turn while charging! With ride-by-attack, and a charging movement of 100'+, you should not be getting easily melee'd by your foes. Even without wheeling charge/fleet of foot, you should always try and end your turn out of melee range of your enemies.
This is worth repeating: you should always try and end your turn out of melee range of your enemies.
ALSO: what weapon are you using? I ask because reach weapons still give small characters a 10' reach. When you qualify for Lunge, small characters still get a 15' foot reach with their reach weapons. This will help a great deal with keeping you foes at bay it/when they close in to attack you and your mount in melee. Also, combined with Wheeling Charge (if it's allowed, it is a paizo published feat, but from the Cities of Golarion book), this makes it even easier to avoid retribution from your enemies.
Really, the mechanics/crunch for keeping your mount alive (beyond what I've mentioned already) is really the same as for any character. The most important thing is smart/tactical combat. Use your superior mobility to stay out of their range. Try and stay more than 60' away after you attack (easily done with a wolf mount) so that (most creatures) can't even charge you afterwards, yet you still can. Use acrobatics/ride to jump over difficult terrain, allowing you easy access to them, and preventing them from easily giving chase (seriously, a wolfs acrobatics and your ride checks should be sufficiently higher than most other creatures acrobatics checks, making jumping over obstacles much easier for you).
(I played a halfling cavalier the moment playtesting started, and continued well after the final version was released, going from level 1 to 25 (using the multiclassing option for those 5 epic levels), and although my mount did get injured a few times, I’ve always been able to keep him alive)
Hope this helps, good luck, and happy gaming!
~P
Ok if you are using Ride by attack and have lots of room . You should never been in full attack range of anything and maybe out of range for anything but a range attack .
Your wolf has 50 move so in Med barding that is 35 . If you start 20 away from your target do a ride by attack using a charge from your mount you should 45 away from the target you attack by the end of your turn . I know you can't always set up your charge like that but you need to try to keep everything away from you .
Also you get to pick what to make your ride check against.So pick and choice when to make the mount dodge . If you think you are going get attacked by more the one thing you may have to let your mount take some damage from a small hit and save your roll for the troll with the two-handed club that is power attacking every swing .
As to a normal riding dog or pony at 5 th level ...its just victum status to anything that can hit it . You are going to have to just keep buying them untel you level again to get your new Animal Companion .
We are starting up a group in a few weeks . I plan on playing a Fling outrider to . If i learn anything more playing one i will post it .
Good luck .
P.S. i would talk to your DM about your issues . He may not see that killing your mount all the time is wrecking your fun .
Pirate's Post for the win .... read his and skip mine . LOL
I learned stuff reading it LOL
I'm Order of the Lion because our group is a "little evil". I really tempted to go Order of the Sword especially for the 8th level Cavalier ability Mounted Mastery. I don't know if I can roleplay the edict without disrupting the groups goals which seem to be again, a little evil.
I wouldn't have a problem switching orders (better now than later anyway).
I recommended that the Mount take Heavy Armor Proficiency...
But remember you don`t actually need Proficiency to use Armor,
the penalty just applies to physical skills (like Jumping) and attack rolls,
so if you don`t care about the mount itself attacking, you don`t need to worry about proficiency.
Yar.
I'm Order of the Lion because our group is a "little evil". I really tempted to go Order of the Sword especially for the 8th level Cavalier ability Mounted Mastery. I don't know if I can roleplay the edict without disrupting the groups goals which seem to be again, a little evil.
I wouldn't have a problem switching orders (better now than later anyway).
Hurray for aliases!
I am a fan of Order of the Sword for the mounted bonus'. However, I'm also an advocate of making choices that fit RP over crunch. Also, Order of the Lion does have some nice abilities as well (though the best one for aiding your mount in surviving isn't gained until 15th level, and it is a really good ability for this purpose).
Random tidbit: your mount counts as an adjacent ally. Your abilities that apply to allies within (range) and to adjacent allies apply to your mount as well. I'd also ask your fellow party members if they'd be willing to give buffs to your mount (as well or instead of yourself if it's really becoming an issue).
If you do decide to change orders (though the clause of not gaining any new abilities for 1 whole level has the potential to be truly brutal), there are a few good (crunch and RP) possibilities. (recommendations below are based on mount survivability).
~P
edit: wow. I totally missed that you already said you are using a Lance in the OP. Awesome. I personally prefer mobility (and not even getting attacked) over high AC, but if that is the route you want, a Boar mount with Improved Natural Armor for all 3 feats means it'll have a base AC of 24 before barding (and it does not need to be proficient with the armor to gain AC from it. The non-proficiency penalty only applies to attacks your mount makes (and your using a lance, so it's not likely to make any) and to skills that suffer from Armor Check penalties (meaning it's acrobatics will suck, but now I'm assuming you want AC over mobility). If you increase it's Dex, it'll have another +1 from that as well (unless it's barding has a +0 max dex, like splint mail and half-plate).
Amazing advice there Pirate, much appreciated.
Yar.
My pleasure. I do hope some some of it actually helps in game, and that your mount can actually become a part of your character (and/or an interesting character in it's own right. Mounts can have personality too).
And somehow a previous edit vanished... here it is:
I totally missed that you already said you are using a Lance in the OP. Awesome. I personally prefer mobility (and not even getting attacked) over high AC, but if that is the route you want, a Boar mount with Improved Natural Armor for all 3 feats means it'll have a base AC of 24 before barding (and it does not need to be proficient with the armor to gain AC from it. The non-proficiency penalty only applies to attacks your mount makes (and your using a lance, so it's not likely to make any) and to skills that suffer from Armor Check penalties (meaning it's acrobatics will suck, but now I'm assuming you want AC over mobility). If you increase it's Dex, it'll have another +1 from that as well (unless it's barding has a +0 max dex, like splint mail and half-plate).
Still, as I've said, higher mobility and simply not getting attacked at all is always (in my opinion) a better option than bumping AC (though the absolute best is when you can effectively combine the two).
~P
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My mount keeps dying. And by dying I mean like every combat.
Let's have some clarification on this statement, shall we.
First, who is who, Harmor = Lenny the halfling. Evil @$$hole GM = Me!
Let's make a long story short, to late.
Mount #1 (Animal Companion dog) - 1st level - Died along with everyone else's mount during start of the campaign, mainly for an RP hook. Lenny, seek out vengeance already!
Eventually, Lenny the wise summons a new animal companion at 1st level after 3 months of mourning (he forgot he could). During the RPing of this event, Lenny's says his prayer for his new animal companion is "Summon a mount... Summon a mount.... Summon a MOUNT!!!" singing over and over. The DM is looking for what he wants to summon here and with no direct request on the type of animal companion, a wild elk stag that happened to be nearby walks through the front of Oleg’s and up to Lenny.
Many combats later.
Mount #2 (Animal Companion Elk Stag) - 1st level - Died when a grizzly bear wandered into the PCs camp looking for a night time snack. The brave Lenny ran away from the grizzly bear and told the Elk to attack it. The elk obeyed its master and became bear food in the middle of the camp.
The group levels up and Lenny decides he wants to be a ranger and learns some ranger $#!t from the local rangers. So, Lenny is now level 2, 1 Cavalier/1 Ranger and will not be able to get the link ability with his animal companion until he levels up as a Cavalier again.
Many combats later.
Mount #3 (combat trained riding dog) - 2nd level - Died when the group was attempting to slay the mighty Tuskgutter (not the normal one from the adventure, not a dire boar (long), but actually Long and Tall boar *cough* 10 ft reach *cough*). Lenny does a ride by attack on the abnormally large boar that is TRAPPED in a bear trap. However, Lenny only has enough movement to end up ten feet away from the abnormally large boar. The abnormally large boar remains trapped and Lenny attempts to ride away triggering an AoO, a die is rolled to determine who gets attacked, Lenny or his riding dog. As fate would have it, it is the riding dog. The attack hits, Lenny attempts a ride check to negate said attack with an immediate action and fails. The 2d6 + 13 points of damage essentially one shots the riding dog. Mean while, Lenny's other mount a combat trained riding pony has been used as live bait in a bear trap for the abnormally large boar by another adventurer in the group. The abnormally large boar's options are to attempt to get out of the trap or attack Lenny's bait Pony or Lenny's food looking riding dog. Being the nice GM I am, I make it a random check every round and for the most part the abnormally large boar attempts to free itself from the bear trap and fails (good thing for the group actually). Finally as the fates would have it, it does attack and the nice GM decides to go after the mount that's basically dead already rather than the bait pony that has 3 HP, the logic being one dead mount is better than two dead mounts.
Suggestions
#1 Use better tactics while in combat.
#2 Do not use your animal companion as a meat shield when you have a high armor class for a level 1/2 character.
#3 And don't forget, Knowing IS half the battle!
Omg!!! Bad Lenny bad.
Its always good to get the dm point of view. I really wish more dm what post their side of a story . Lol
Sounds like a pretty negligent Halfling...
...but actually Long and Tall boar *cough* 10 ft reach *cough*). Lenny does a ride by attack on the abnormally large boar that is TRAPPED in a bear trap. However, Lenny only has enough movement to end up ten feet away from the abnormally large boar. The abnormally large boar remains trapped and Lenny attempts to ride away triggering an AoO, a die is rolled to determine who gets attacked, Lenny or his riding dog. As fate would have it, it is the riding dog...
So apparently the Boar chose not to attack them even though they were within Reach during it`s turn?
And Lenny for some reason chooses to `normally` move away (did he attack first?) rather than 5` stepping away which would avoid any AoO`s. Well, I can see that as a common mistake of many new-ish players (and would point out stuff like that as a GM, i.e. if they`re sure they want to do it), but doing it is the type of thing to get your own self killed, irrespective of any issues with Mounts. Which it sounds like there ARE no issues with, in fact, besides player mis-usage of them.
Sounds like a pretty negligent Halfling...
And Lenny for some reason chooses to `normally` move away (did he attack first?) rather than 5` stepping away which would avoid any AoO`s.
Lenny was attempting move away to reposition for a new ride by attack the next round, so no five foot step.
I can see that as a common mistake of many new-ish players (and would point out stuff like that as a GM, i.e. if they`re sure they want to do it)
Harmor, aka Lenny, has been playing some form of d20 D&D 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder for many many many moons.
On a side note, Lenny should be more upset with the crazy bow monk that decided to shoot the abnormally large boar... wait for it... right before it was about to step into some of the bear traps setup. It was one of those priceless moments. So, instead of taking the elk meat scraps in the traps, the abnormally large boar made a perception check of a nice fleshy large horse tied to a tree 40-50 feet away and decided it wanted the big dinner.
The thing with Kingmaker, at least in my experience, is that you have a lot of outdoor encounters with things that would logically be attacking your mounts: wolves, dire wolves, werewolves, owlbears, giant spiders, rocs, wyverns...etc, etc. Big predators often take down big prey to make for better meals. Falls in line with what Whosdasht said above with the boar.
That said, there's always potions. You might have to teach potion drinking as a specific trick to your mount in order to get them to do it. Or perhaps a nice GM will just let you spike some sugar cubes with a potion of barkskin and feed them to your mount.
Lenny shoulders sulk as he slowly looks up at you with his big bushy eyebrows shading his misting eyes and says, "I have been known to stretch the truth just a weeee bit;" his lower lip starts to quiver.
Yar!
Lenny shoulders sulk as he slowly looks up at you with his big bushy eyebrows shading his misting eyes and says, "I have been known to stretch the truth just a weeee bit;" his lower lip starts to quiver.
Aaaawwwwww, look at the cute widdle- *suddenly picks up the halfling and tosses it at an orc* -HIYAH!!
;P
My advice still stands.
^_^
~P
Yet he could (and should have) been able to make a withdraw action if he was not going to attack in that round. This would from the sound of it (at the outskirt of the critter's reach) avoided the AOO.-James
He absolutely could have, but choose not to while declaring his actions.
James,
You don't know Lenny like we know Lenny....hehe.
My mount keeps dying. And by dying I mean like every combat.Let's have some clarification on this statement, shall we.
First, who is who, Harmor = Lenny the halfling. Evil @$$hole GM = Me!
Let's make a long story short, to late.
Mount #1 (Animal Companion dog) - 1st level - Died along with everyone else's mount during start of the campaign, mainly for an RP hook. Lenny, seek out vengeance already!
Eventually, Lenny the wise summons a new animal companion at 1st level after 3 months of mourning (he forgot he could). During the RPing of this event, Lenny's says his prayer for his new animal companion is "Summon a mount... Summon a mount.... Summon a MOUNT!!!" singing over and over. The DM is looking for what he wants to summon here and with no direct request on the type of animal companion, a wild elk stag that happened to be nearby walks through the front of Oleg’s and up to Lenny.
Many combats later.
Mount #2 (Animal Companion Elk Stag) - 1st level - Died when a grizzly bear wandered into the PCs camp looking for a night time snack. The brave Lenny ran away from the grizzly bear and told the Elk to attack it. The elk obeyed its master and became bear food in the middle of the camp.
The group levels up and Lenny decides he wants to be a ranger and learns some ranger $#!t from the local rangers. So, Lenny is now level 2, 1 Cavalier/1 Ranger and will not be able to get the link ability with his animal companion until he levels up as a Cavalier again.
Many combats later.
Mount #3 (combat trained riding dog) - 2nd level - Died when the group was attempting to slay the mighty Tuskgutter (not the normal one from the adventure, not a dire boar (long), but actually Long and Tall boar *cough* 10 ft reach *cough*). Lenny does a ride by attack on the abnormally large boar that is TRAPPED in a bear trap. However, Lenny only has enough movement to end up ten feet away from the abnormally large boar. The...
Ride by attacks DO NOT cause AoO
"When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack."
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Six years ago this information may have been pertinent.
