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Title says it all.
Title says it all.
I don't think so. Demoralize adds the Shaken status which is a fear effect and Vampires (and all undead) are immune.
Title says it all.I don't think so. Demoralize adds the Shaken status which is a fear effect and Vampires (and all undead) are immune.
Where does it say Shaken is a [Fear] effect?
If it does indeed say that somewhere (I can't find it), a vampire on a boat in the ocean facing a vampire hunter with a silver holy symbol, a wooden stake, and holy water wouldn't be scared?
Where does it say Shaken is a [Fear] effect?
It's under the Fear section in the glossary, FWIW.
If it does indeed say that somewhere (I can't find it), a vampire on a boat in the ocean facing a vampire hunter with a silver holy symbol, a wooden stake, and holy water wouldn't be scared?
You can certainly have misgivings about something and still not be shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering. :-)
All sentient undead should be affected by mind-affecting spells -- they still have a mind, from my understanding. This includes both vampires and liches.
I definitely agree with this.
And it would make enchantment spells a lot less sucky.
Where does it say Shaken is a [Fear] effect?
If it does indeed say that somewhere (I can't find it), a vampire on a boat in the ocean facing a vampire hunter with a silver holy symbol, a wooden stake, and holy water wouldn't be scared?
I'm pretty sure, by RAW, that you can demoralize a vampire. Most everyone seems to believe RAI is that Demoralize is a Fear effect, however.
What doesn't make sense to me is that any sentient being can be immune to fear. All sentient undead should be affected by mind-affecting spells -- they still have a mind, from my understanding. This includes both vampires and liches.
Demoralize is not a fear effect. Shaken is a fear effect. The result of using Demoralize is applying shaken to your opponent. Thus, you can demoralize someone immune to fear (undead, Paladin), but the end result is that they will not be penalized by it, no matter the result.
I agree with you though. I think all sentient beings should be affected by mind affectin effects.
Where does it say Shaken is a [Fear] effect?It's under the Fear section in the glossary, FWIW.
If it does indeed say that somewhere (I can't find it), a vampire on a boat in the ocean facing a vampire hunter with a silver holy symbol, a wooden stake, and holy water wouldn't be scared?You can certainly have misgivings about something and still not be shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering. :-)
Hmm, I'm not finding it in D20PFSRD. I'll check in the CR tomorrow...
And if I was a vampire with a functioning bowel, I'd be a brownpants in no time. It seems super weird that an intelligent being isn't fazed by stuff that could kill it in 18 seconds.
Hmm, I'm not finding it in D20PFSRD. I'll check in the CR tomorrow...And if I was a vampire with a functioning bowel, I'd be a brownpants in no time. It seems super weird that an intelligent being isn't fazed by stuff that could kill it in 18 seconds.
Not necessarily.
Remember, a large part of fear is part of your fight or flight response. Terror is your fight or flight response going into overdrive in the flight direction (akin to a barbarian berserking in the opposite direction).
I see no reason at all to think a vampire or lich or other undead would be affected by adrenaline and endorphins that usually kick in for fight or flight response.
In most cases Vampires no longer register human emotions. They've forgotten what they mean. White Wolf had a whole section on vampires and emotions... it kind of sucked, but it was interesting in its own way.
As the biggest, baddest predator around... I'm pretty sure MOST (not all... but most) vampires on a ship in the ocean with a hunter and a stake... STILL has the upper hand.
Now, of course... Vampires can be concerned... they can weigh their chances of survival... They can retreat if backed into a corner.
However I don't think vampires should ever be cowering in a corner or under the bed hoping the big bad adventurers go away :P
If we're going this route, there really is no reason why undead would do anything. If the brain's chemistry stops working, why do they do anything but sit in their coffin or crypt? I never got the impression from the fluff that vampires and liches are possessed by outsiders.
If you look at the classical vampire (western vampires), they don't really feel fear, or happiness, or even anger. They're very low emotion types. They may feel apprehension, or decide they are not going to do something because the risk is too high, but that's all due to their risk/reward calculations.
Plus, undead usually have an animating magical force, not biochemistry (zombies, skeletons, etc). That animating force can keep the neurons firing without need for brain chemistry. :)
I just arrive in the exact same cape as the vampire. That usually does the trick.
If it does indeed say that somewhere (I can't find it), a vampire on a boat in the ocean facing a vampire hunter with a silver holy symbol, a wooden stake, and holy water wouldn't be scared?
Exactly. They left emotion behind when their pulse stopped. Vampires in PF aren't subject to Rötschreck, either. It's a glands thing, I'm told.
They'll still avoid all that is anathema to them, but they will do it totally rationally, not paralysed or otherwise hampered by fear.
I'm pretty sure, by RAW, that you can demoralize a vampire. Most everyone seems to believe RAI is that Demoralize is a Fear effect, however.
No, it's totally RAW. Demoralise makes people shaken. Shaken is a fear effect. Vampires are immune to fear effects.
What doesn't make sense to me is that any sentient being can be immune to fear.
Better stop playing Pathfinder, then. Paladins are alive and they're immune to it.
Anyway, saying that sentient beings not sensing fear makes no sense but ignoring that there are sentient beings that are dead and still sentient - now THAT doesn't make sense.
Undead are undead. They go against nature by existing. Being sentient and still immune to things that affect a mind is a trifle compared to that.
I just arrive in the exact same cape as the vampire. That usually does the trick.
Nah. Won't help. They'll just charm you and use you as an impromptu mirror to check the effect their cape has. Because of the mirror thing.
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Something to consider when you are talking about making sentient undead able to be affected by mind-effecting abilities means that you could feeblemind them. That drops their charisma to 1 and decimates their HP and fort save. There is a similar problem with the metamagic that allows for undead to be affected this way, and this allows it to be done without the +2 spell level.
we had the same issue last week, and for effect i allowed it but raw clearly says that the vampire is immune to "moral effects" in my mind maybe i am wrong but to DEmoralize is the same thing. it is a moral effect
they were trying to use dazzling display to give the vampire the "gun show" in my mind that will not effect a vampire it can't be demoralized
i guess what i would need is a definition of morale effects.?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#undead
here is the undead info
i guess what i would need is a definition of morale effects.?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#undead
here is the undead info
Morale effects are things specifically called out as morale effects (or morale bonuses). Bardic music (inspire compotence save bonus), for instance, and some spells.
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This area is a little less cut and dried than some of the posters above make it seem. In general, Undead are immune to fear effects. This is because Undead are stated to be immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Fear effects are often Necromancies, and what makes Undead immune to them is that they are also mind-affecting. Threnodic Spell (from UM) would allow such a spell to affect undead. If Undead were immune to fear as its own descriptor, Threnodic Spell would be a lot less useful (incidentally, Threnodic Spell is unclear as to whether or not Undead can be affected by compulsions and charms. This is important because a giant pile of mind-affecting spells also have one of these two descriptors. RAW, you're SOL.) Nowhere in the description of Undead does it say they are immune to fear in and of itself. In fact:
Turn UndeadCalling upon higher powers, you cause undead to flee from the might of your unleashed divine energy.
Prerequisites: Channel positive energy class feature.
Benefit: You can, as a standard action, use one of your uses of channel positive energy to cause all undead within 30 feet of you to flee, as if panicked. Undead receive a Will save to negate the effect. The DC for this Will save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Undead that fail their save flee for 1 minute. Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each round to end the effect. If you use channel energy in this way, it has no other effect (it does not heal or harm nearby creatures).
So what again is the argument that Undead cannot be demoralized? Demoralizing someone with the Intimidate skill is not called out as a morale effect (despite the name), nor is it called out as mind- affecting (by that same logic, you could not use Diplomacy on the Undead, since, you know, mind-affecting, insofar as you are attempting to change (influence) the attitude (mind) of a target when using Diplomacy.).
So, near as I can tell, Undead are immune to many things that inflict fearful states. The Intimidate skill is not one of them. While vampires and liches may not feel emotions in the same way that humans do (and this is really up to your GM), a creature with the potential to live forever might very well be intimidated by someone willing and able to deliver a rather permanent beatdown on the spot. They might well indeed conclude that discretion is the better part of valor.
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All sentient undead should be affected by mind-affecting spells -- they still have a mind, from my understanding. This includes both vampires and liches.I definitely agree with this.
Agreed. Anything with a mind, whether it be a plant, ooze or undead, shouldn't have a blanket immunity to mind-affecting effects (although special cases could still exist).
Do fear effects count as mind-affecting effects? The list under the ooze, plant and undead subtypes of mind-affecting effects includes;
charm, compulsion, morale effects, patterns and phantasms, but doesn't mention fear.
What doesn't make sense to me is that any sentient being can be immune to fear. All sentient undead should be affected by mind-affecting spells -- they still have a mind, from my understanding. This includes both vampires and liches.
+1
I see no reason at all to think a vampire or lich or other undead would be affected by adrenaline and endorphins that usually kick in for fight or flight response.
If you argue with hormones, please think this line to an end. Which is "I see no reason why dead bodies should be able to move and think and stuff"
(to think you need hormones - my basic point: vampires are magical beings, so arguing with realism just doesn't work)In most cases Vampires no longer register human emotions. They've forgotten what they mean. White Wolf had a whole section on vampires and emotions... it kind of sucked, but it was interesting in its own way.
Skeletons and zombies are either driven by instict ("eeeeaat braaaains!") or under the command of someone. Vampires are not (well they can be driven by instinct but that's the stupid nonsentient vampire who is a somewhat stronger zombie) so... what's their motivation if they have no emotions? Amassing power for example needs the wish for power.
Dracula and Nosferatu are both driven by emotions (which is why Kinski is such a great choice for Nosferatu) so don't tell me that's not style or that this is a WoD invention
If you look at the classical vampire (western vampires)
Please define "classical vampire". Are you talking about old myths or dracula or whatelse?
Can you demoralize a vampire?Yes, tell him Edward Cullen is scarier.
That's not demoralizing, that's enraging
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So I checked the various fear spells (cause fear, fear, scare) and they are both mind-affecting and fear. So, that's up in the air, since they aren't specifically listed among the mind-affecting effects that an undead is immune to, but they are still 'mind-affecting.' A vote for either direction, pretty much, depending on whether you believe that the specific exclusion trumps the general inclusion, or vice-versa.
But the demoralize from Intimidate inflicts a shaken condition, which, per the Condition summary, imposes an unnamed penalty, not a morale penalty, so the rules seem to pretty solidly weigh in on the vampire being vulnerable to Intimidate.
So, tell glitter-boy that all the girls have left him for the hawt shirtless werewolf, and watch him mess up his guyliner with bloody tears. Demoralize is a go.
But the demoralize from Intimidate inflicts a shaken condition, which, per the Condition summary, imposes an unnamed penalty, not a morale penalty, so the rules seem to pretty solidly weigh in on the vampire being vulnerable to Intimidate.
As noted by Adam above, I think fear is a morale effect, even if it's not a Morale(tm) effect. That's the problem with using common English words in a game-specific context (see also: enchantment vs. Enchantment(tm)).
I just arrive in the exact same cape as the vampire. That usually does the trick.Nah. Won't help. They'll just charm you and use you as an impromptu mirror to check the effect their cape has. Because of the mirror thing.
That's too bad... usually showing up the same outfit leaves others crestfallen. I was once in a terrible fire and had banadages all over my body. A mummy broke in that night to wreck the place, saw me, and you should have seen his shoulders drop. One dusty sigh later and he turned and moped all the way back to the desert.
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So, do vampires (and sentient undead in general) think like the living?
If yes: Vampires are free-willed creatures, and although their morality may be warped by inhuman thirsts and the burden of immortality, they are still have human thought-processes. Most are evil, as it is far easier to give into their terrible nature, but it is a choice they make. Many depictions of vampires in the last several decades go by this, and it opens up the possibility of non-evil vampire characters, possibly even PCs.
If no: Vampires are inhuman creatures without a shred of humanity. Their thought-processes are unnatural, alien. Any morality died long ago. If they do show emotions, it is a calculated response or an unintentional "echo". They are always evil, and vampirisim is not a "condition", but an affront to all that is good. This is how vampires were depicted back in the old days, although it is also quite common in current media (Buffy and Angel vampires are demons inhabiting corpses, White Wolf's vampires vary between this and the above based on their Humanity score, and my favorite RPG vampires from Nightspawn are empowered and puppeted by hungry alien intelligences in another dimension). They are not affected by fear, demoralize, or mind-affecting effects, and there's little to identify as a recognizable "mind".
You can go either way in a campaign. You can even do both (Nightspawn example: 1st generation vampire have made a deal with and are directly connected to the vampire intelligence, 2nd generation are under control of the 1st generation, and if the process gets botched you end up with a vampire with some of the powers and all of their free-will. And 3rd generation vampires are zombies).
(I was just having a conversation about when the first sympathetic vampire showed up in media, so this was on my mind.)
So I checked the various fear spells (cause fear, fear, scare) and they are both mind-affecting and fear. So, that's up in the air, since they aren't specifically listed among the mind-affecting effects that an undead is immune to, but they are still 'mind-affecting.' A vote for either direction, pretty much, depending on whether you believe that the specific exclusion trumps the general inclusion, or vice-versa.
But the demoralize from Intimidate inflicts a shaken condition, which, per the Condition summary, imposes an unnamed penalty, not a morale penalty, so the rules seem to pretty solidly weigh in on the vampire being vulnerable to Intimidate.
So, tell glitter-boy that all the girls have left him for the hawt shirtless werewolf, and watch him mess up his guyliner with bloody tears. Demoralize is a go.
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The closest definition in the ryles of a morale effect is the section ón bonus types. Bless and bane would be morale effects as they apply morale modifiers. Shaken, frightened, panicked and cowering are conditions that apply untyped penalties and regardless of the theme are by RAW not something creatures with the undead trait are immune too.