I am trying to figure out my character's speed and what order you apply effects.
He is a human oracle with the Lame curse.
He is under a medium load.
He is wearing medium armor (breastplate).
He is wearing a swarmsuit.
You always apply things that are constant first.
So lame applies first, reducing you from 30 to 20.
The medium load is irrelevant, the Lame curse says ignore encumbrance.
Your speed is 20, so medium armor reduces you to 15, just like a halfling or gnome. Note that at 10th level, your lame curse let's you ignore the armor.
So, before the swarmsuit, you have a 15 speed (20 if you are level 10 or higher).
I do not know what a swarmsuit is, so can't answer that part.
Human base 30 ft.
Lame reduces your base speed by 10 ft. so, 20 ft. base speed.
Medium armor reduces base speed to 15 ft.
Swarmsuit 1/2 movement = 7.5 ft. rounds down to 5 ft. So, no 5-foot step for you.
edit: removed references to encumbrance.
Ugh...I hate speed calculations, especially because I suspect that the authors of the rules use "speed" and "base speed" interchangeably at random.
At any rate, I agree with Tim's result -- 15 ft, halved for the swarmsuit.
5ft? Dang, was hoping it'd be 10 ... does Fleet change this at all? I cant find where it says what 25ft rounds down to for armors.
The formula for armors is basically 2/3 of your speed, rounded up to the nearest 5' increment. So that'd be 20 feet, halved = 10 ft.
IMO, anyways.
EDIT:
Actually, there's a table that confirms my interpretation.
Tim is correct except for forgetting that the Lame curse negates encumbrance.
As to other speeds, it's under Encumbrance in Additional Rules.
So Fleet would make a difference.
35 - 10 (Lame) = 25
25 reduced by armor becomes 20 feet.
Half of 20 for swarmsuit (whatever that is) is 10.
Armor and Encumbrance for Other Base Speeds
The table below provides reduced speed figures for all base speeds from 5 feet to 120 feet (in 5-foot increments).
Base Speed Reduced Speed
5 ft. 5 ft.
10 ft.–15 ft. 10 ft.
20 ft. 15 ft.
25 ft.–30 ft. 20 ft.
35 ft. 25 ft.
40 ft.–45 ft. 30 ft.
50 ft. 35 ft.
55 ft.–60 ft. 40 ft.
65 ft. 45 ft.
70 ft.–75 ft. 50 ft.
80 ft. 55 ft.
85 ft.–90 ft. 60 ft.
95 ft. 65 ft.
100 ft.–105 ft. 70 ft.
110 ft. 75 ft.
115 ft.–120 ft. 80 ft.
5ft? Dang, was hoping it'd be 10 ... does Fleet change this at all? I cant find where it says what 25ft rounds down to for armors.
It's right there on page 170 of the Core Rulebook.
Human base 30 ft.
Fleet increases your speed to 35 ft.
Lame reduces your base speed by 10 ft. so, 25 ft. base speed.
Medium armor reduces base speed to 20 ft.
Swarmsuit 1/2 movement = 10 ft.
Personally, I wouldn't let a character take both fleet and lame, but then again I'm a jerk that way.
--GM Cheesegrater
Personally, I wouldn't let a character take both fleet and lame, but then again I'm a jerk that way.--GM Cheesegrater
Why not? Honestly. Fleet says 'I'm faster than the average bear'. A fleet lame person is 'faster than the average lame person'. They're still spending a feat to be slightly faster than the average, just faster than the average lame oracle than the average human/dwarf/etc.
Why not? Honestly. Fleet says 'I'm faster than the average bear'. A fleet lame person is 'faster than the average lame person'. They're still spending a feat to be slightly faster than the average, just faster than the average lame oracle than the average human/dwarf/etc.
To me it feels more like cheesy min-maxing than a thematically coherent character.
"I used to be an Olympic sprinter than I became a lame oracle." I'd feel the same if the player wanted to take a level of barbarian first.
Personally, I feel players should embrace these bits that make their characters unique and yes, perhaps even expose a weakness. Rather than just make a PC quesadilla. You know a big pile of cheesy goodness that is basically flat with everything just mixed in.
To each their own.
Why not? Honestly. Fleet says 'I'm faster than the average bear'. A fleet lame person is 'faster than the average lame person'. They're still spending a feat to be slightly faster than the average, just faster than the average lame oracle than the average human/dwarf/etc.To me it feels more like cheesy min-maxing than a thematically coherent character.
"I used to be an Olympic sprinter than I became a lame oracle." I'd feel the same if the player wanted to take a level of barbarian first.
Personally, I feel players should embrace these bits that make their characters unique and yes, perhaps even expose a weakness. Rather than just make a PC quesadilla. You know a big pile of cheesy goodness that is basically flat with everything just mixed in.
To each their own.
Did you just imply that taking fleet is somehow optimal?
Why not? Honestly. Fleet says 'I'm faster than the average bear'. A fleet lame person is 'faster than the average lame person'. They're still spending a feat to be slightly faster than the average, just faster than the average lame oracle than the average human/dwarf/etc.To me it feels more like cheesy min-maxing than a thematically coherent character.
"I used to be an Olympic sprinter than I became a lame oracle." I'd feel the same if the player wanted to take a level of barbarian first.
Personally, I feel players should embrace these bits that make their characters unique and yes, perhaps even expose a weakness. Rather than just make a PC quesadilla. You know a big pile of cheesy goodness that is basically flat with everything just mixed in.
To each their own.
They are paying a cost to "overcome" their drawback. Just like if someone with a Dex of 7 takes Improved Initiative. There was a cost involved. It didn't completely overcome the penalty but it did help.
Instead of taking Fleet x2 or a dip in Barbarian, a lame oracle can overcome the curse by buying Boots of Striding and Springing for the cost of 5500gp and using the "feet" slot.
Fleet wouldn't work, because you lose the benefits of the feat if you carry a medium or heavy load, or if you are wearing something other than light or no armor. Since you are wearing a breastplate and have a medium load, Fleet wouldn't help. Here's the Fleet description:
Fleet wouldn't work, because you lose the benefits of the feat if you carry a medium or heavy load, or if you are wearing something other than light or no armor. Since you are wearing a breastplate and have a medium load, Fleet wouldn't help. Here's the Fleet description:
Not quite true.
Lame: One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th level, you are immune to the fatigued condition (but not exhaustion). At 10th level, your speed is never reduced by armor. At 15th level, you are immune to the exhausted condition.
I take that to mean that once lamed, you are not affected by encumbrance at all, so you are not encumbered, therefore fleet is not affected (armor would still affect it). Then, at 10th level, when you are no longer slowed by armor, fleet is no longer affected by it either.
The same would apply to dwarves, in my opinion. They ignore armor speed reductions, therefore the armor doesn't affect fleet (although encumbrance would, since they still have issues with encumbrance).
Fleet wouldn't work, because you lose the benefits of the feat if you carry a medium or heavy load, or if you are wearing something other than light or no armor.
Good catch!
I take that to mean that once lamed, you are not affected by encumbrance at all, so you are not encumbered, therefore fleet is not affected (armor would still affect it). Then, at 10th level, when you are no longer slowed by armor, fleet is no longer affected by it either.
The same would apply to dwarves, in my opinion. They ignore armor speed reductions, therefore the armor doesn't affect fleet (although encumbrance would, since they still have issues with encumbrance).
No where in the rules-as-written () does it say your are not encumbered or or treated as not wearing armor, only that your speed is never reduced.
The 3.5 FAQ () deals with question of a dwarven barbarian in heavy armor. It is the type of armor worn that is important not whether it actually reduces your speed.
Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance.I take that to mean that once lamed, you are not affected by encumbrance at all, so you are not encumbered, therefore fleet is not affected (armor would still affect it).
Why would you take it that way?
Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance.
With a medium load, he will still have a max dex of +3 and a check penalty of -3. It's arguable whether the x4 run limitation would be considered a reduction in speed (since speed is a tactical movement speed while run is more like overland travel).
For Fleet, it says "You lose the benefits of this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load." it does not say you lose the feat if your speed is reduced by carrying a medium load.
Same thing for Dwarves, their speed is never modified, but that doesn't excuse them from MDB or check penalty, or grant them any kind of immunity to Fleet's restrictions.
I'll have to agree with Grick and Tim. Both the Dwarf and the Oracle abilities you've listed only negate the movement speed reductions that are a direct result of a heavier load or heavier armor. Since check penalties and max Dex penalties are still applied, I don't think this means that they are completely immune to the penalties of armor or encumbrance. Therefore, it still represses abilities that don't apply when certain encumbrance or armor conditions are met (like monk/barbarian abilities, or Fleet).
Please note I didn't say 'WRONG', I said 'Not quite true' as in, it can be read differently. Then I went on to give out how I read it. If you don't agree, that's fine. Personally, I feel if you have something that says you do not reduce speed for encumbrance, and another that says you don't get speed boost when you are encumbered, then the first ensures the second doesn't happen. You can read it however you want.
At this point I might very well be arguing for argument's own sake, but I'm going to take the other side of this one. Fleet + Lame + Medium load stack perfectly fine.
Perhaps I would clarify mdt's statement a little bit to say that while lamed your speed is not affected by encumbrance at all. You still have a max dex and AC penalty and spell failure, but your speed isn't affected.
Since losing the benefits of fleet because of carrying a medium load could be read as your speed being reduced due to encumbrance, then perhaps lame would supersede that.
