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Available now at Paizo, Sorcerer's Options: Beyond Bloodlines is designed to expand the alternate rules that can be used to make two sorcerers different, even if they select the same bloodline. It does this by presenting arcane endowments (special powers available only to sorcerers, representing quirks in their inherited powers), sorcery spells (arcane spells available only to sorcerers), and alternate class powers built on the model of class archetypes (first presented in the Advanced Player's Guide).
Arcane Endowments
Arcane endowments are special powers sorcerers sometimes develop as their natural magic powers expand with experience and maturity.
Adaptive Caster
Arcanavore
Arcane Oddity
Arcane Resistance
Arcane Vengeance
Clandestine Arcana
Eldritch Wards
Exultant Casting
Hereditary Vitality
Instinctive Understanding
Internalize Spell
Planar Caster
Natural Sorcery
Signature Spell
Sorcerous Sideboard
Sorcerous Summoning
Spell Shaper
Target Refinement
Sorcery Spells
Ten spells, one for each spell level, designed specifically for sorcerers. These sorcerer-only spells play off either the game mechanics or thematic elements of the sorcerer class, and as such are not appropriate for use by wizards (or any other spellcasting classes).
Blood Curse
Mnemonic Alteration
Powerful Sorcery
Resistant Sorcery
Sanguine Boon
Sanguine Enhancement
Sanguine Focus
Sanguine Focus, Greater
Symbol of Sorcery
Transfiguration
Alternate Class Powers
As flexible and customizable as the sorcerer is, the class makes numerous assumptions about its role and style of play which may not match the preferences of every player. To create more options on what kinds of sorcerers are available, Sorcerer's Options: Beyond Bloodlines presents three archetypes — bedreven, scourge, and strega, that alter the powers, and even spellcasting ability, of the sorcerer class.
9.5 pages +0.5 pages of cover and 1 page of credits. (11 pages total)
I like these! And at a time where there have been a lot of threads about sorcerer archetypes and options.
I also love the Bedreven and Scourge archetypes. I need to take one level of a spontaneous caster for a Shadow Assassin I'm making, and this book has swung my decision towards a Sorcerer rather than a synthesist summoner (although "Becoming" a shadow would be cool too). Specifically, adaptive caster is making me consider the Sorc route.
One thing I noticed is that Natural Sorcerery doesn't list how much extra damage you get. I assume it's one die per spell level sacrificed.
Keep up the good work.
I like these! And at a time where there have been a lot of threads about sorcerer archetypes and options.
Glad you like it!
One thing I noticed is that Natural Sorcerery doesn't list how much extra damage you get. I assume it's one die per spell level sacrificed.
Sigh. Correct. I'll start the errata list.
Keep up the good work.
I will as long as people keep buying it! :)
Two questions:
Are Strega hexes' save DCs based on Int (like a Witch) or Cha (like a Sorcerer)?
Can you be both a Strega and a Bedreven?
Are these anything like the sigils and talents that we put out not too long ago? Cause if so, I'm sold!
Are these anything like the sigils and talents that we put out not too long ago? Cause if so, I'm sold!
That was my first thought when I saw them.
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Two questions:
Are Strega hexes' save DCs based on Int (like a Witch) or Cha (like a Sorcerer)?
The hexes are, by design, still Int-based, because the strega gives up so little to get them, making them Cha-based would have been too big a power boost.
Can you be both a Strega and a Bedreven?
Ah... I guess so, yes, by RAW. Or at least there's nothing stopping you in the RAW. But it'd be more likely to be overpowered, since the bedreven uses Int for spells already, and could expend a single spell point to fuel hexes...
Ah-ha! You could be both, but under pure RAW, your bedreven has no "spell slots" to fuel his hexes. So the bedreven would get only a single use per day out of each hex.
Now yes, if I was allowing such a character, I'd allow the spell pool to power hexes. But it's also tie the DC of any hex cast to the number of points expended from the pool to maintain balance. If you only spend enough points for a 1st level spell, you figure the DC as a first level spell. That prevents that particular combination from getting out of hand.
bought it, read it, loved it!
battle sorcerer? sign me up!
sorcerous sideboard? absolutely!
Are these anything like the sigils and talents that we put out not too long ago? Cause if so, I'm sold!That was my first thought when I saw them.
Should I be feeling like we've been screwed out of our creation?
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Should I be feeling like we've been screwed out of our creation?Are these anything like the sigils and talents that we put out not too long ago? Cause if so, I'm sold!That was my first thought when I saw them.
I certainly hope not! I haven't seen your sigils and talents, so there's no intentional overlap and I can't say if there is unintentional overlap.
Do you have a link to the product, so I can pick it up for myself and take a look?
Just when i was slowing down on character ideas you go and do this. Seriously owen you have no respect for my spare time... It is going to take me a week to get though this whole product. I started looking at it yesterday, and 4 times I stopped and starting jotting down notes for a character design. I didnt even mean to. Now I just have to find a way to convince my 'core only' dm to allow some of these options for my sorcerorr in my game.
Oh and by the way, I love the quote at the top of the first page. It reminds me of one of my all time favorite gaming moments. I was playing in a campaign in college using a continuation of the character that is my namesake here on these boards. We were in the final confrontation with an evil wizard who had been hounding us the whole game. The following happened over several rounds.
Wizard : A petty sorceror like you will never understand the true power of magic. How could you when you have never picked up a book in your life.
Me : You wizards think you are so wise and powerful. [Energy Drain] Yet you have to beg [Energy drain]. Borrow [Energy Drain] and steal [energy drain] your power. [ Energy drain]. Where as me [Energy Drain]. I AM POWER! [Final Energy Drain]
Questions and comments so far:
1. With Arcanavore: If the spell is not on the wiz/sorc list it isnt clear if the spell is added as one level higher then normal to your list, or as it is normally. So for instance if a level 4 sorceror assimilates a Bane spell, is it added to his list of level 2 spells known or level 1?
2. Arcane Oddity is awesome. That is all.
3. Just to clarify, under Clandestine Arcana, when you say 'obvious physical effects' are you talking about somatic/verbal components, or visual things like fireball vs charm person? What about spells with only visual effects like glitterdust? The concept is good, but I think I need more description on what does or doesnt apply.
4. Seems like at high levels Hereditary Vitality is a bit much. At 20th level you get +5 con for a feat slot. And it is an untyped bonus, thus stacking with enchancements. That seems rather powerful to me.
5. Instinctive Understanding is interesting. As a sorceror it seems to be a double edged sword. If you dont pump in you wont have many skills to put into knowledges in the first place, but you might just spread what points you have around since obviously your charisma will be high. I like it, I really do, good to shut up those wanna be know it all wizards.
6. I like internalize spell, it definately allows the sorc to be more self sufficient in many terms, and possibly take pressure off the divine folks from having to burn their spells and resources putting him back together.
7. Minor nitpick: There is a slight error in the wording of Planar Caster on page 4:
"Use of the planar ability does not extend the casting time or effective spell level of the spell affected." Presumably you mean to say raise the effective spell level, and not imply that spell level might be somehow 'extended'.
8. Natural Sorcery seems incomplete. How much does a spell slot increase the damage? Does this apply to claws or only the energy bolt type powers?
9. I like signature spell. It has a suitable limitation and can really put a bit of polish on the style of a given sorceror. Lord knows sorcs have their favorite spells. Though I wish i could get this at 8th level instead of 7th, as enervation would definately be my signature spell every time.
10. I am kind of torn on Sorcerous Sideboard. On the one hand it does alot to enhance the flexibility of the sorc, but at the same time, it is a push towards the headache of having to prepare spells. That seems to me like the wrong direction for sorcerors. Careful consideration of spells at prep time just seems wrong for sorcs. That and if you take it several times, along with say the human favored class bonus, you are stepping pretty hard on the wizards toes.
Having taken it 3 times at 7th level and having taken the human sorc favored class bonus at levels 4,5,6 and 7, you are choosing 7 of 10 cantrips, 7 of 10 1st level spells, 5 of 8 2nd levle spell and 2 of 5 3rd level spells.
By contrast, the wizard is choosing to prepare 4 cantrips, 4 first level spells, 3 2nd level spells 2 3rd level spells and 1 4th level spell. Sure the wizard COULD have a bigger list of spells to choose from, but not MUCH bigger. I would have to see it in playtests to be sure, but it seems like a sorc built around this could easily overshadow a wizard of the same level in terms of flexibility.
11. Sorcerous summoning is intriguing. I very rarely use summoning as a sorceror, that may change looking at this. Though it may get complicated. If a dragonic sorceror summons a dolphin, does it grow limbs to make use of it's new claws feature?
12. I really like all the limited use metamagic options. Wizards have always been the metamagic kings. If a sorc takes a few of the spell shapper/ target refinement type endowments, that might just change.
Thats all for now. I'll post feedback for the rest of the contents as I get to them. Like I said it will take me some time to get through the whole product because I keep getting distracted by character ideas.
Fnipernackle has the link. I wish we could send private messages or notifications on these boards.
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Just when i was slowing down on character ideas you go and do this. Seriously owen you have no respect for my spare time...
S'okay... Your extensive (and reasonable – don't get me wrong!) list of questions just ate what little spare time I had this morning...
1. With Arcanavore: If the spell is not on the wiz/sorc list it isnt clear if the spell is added as one level higher then normal to your list, or as it is normally. So for instance if a level 4 sorceror assimilates a Bane spell, is it added to his list of level 2 spells known or level 1?
Huh. That went through playtesting, editing... I guess my folks are just getting too used to what I mean (which, oddly, in this case is a bad thing).
Yes, the bane spell would count as 2nd level, and replace a 2nd level spell known. I'll add that to the list of errata.
2. Arcane Oddity is awesome. That is all.
LOL.
3. Just to clarify, under Clandestine Arcana, when you say 'obvious physical effects' are you talking about somatic/verbal components, or visual things like fireball vs charm person? What about spells with only visual effects like glitterdust? The concept is good, but I think I need more description on what does or doesnt apply.
Here is a case where I didn't want to mess up people's home games. So, if you look on page 216 of the core rulebook, under "Succeeding on a Saving Throw" it says "a creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or tingle." I used exactly the same wording, so however each group has decided to interpret " no obvious physical effects" it will apply the same interpretation to clandestine arcana.
4. Seems like at high levels Hereditary Vitality is a bit much. At 20th level you get +5 con for a feat slot. And it is an untyped bonus, thus stacking with enchancements. That seems rather powerful to me.
As mentioned in the intro, arcane endowments are based on the power level of oracle revelations (which can be gained with feats). Mental acuity, in the Lore mystery, does exactly the same thing but with Int (which gives retroactive skill points just as HV gives retroactive hit points). I honestly don't think +5 Int is any less useful to a high-level oracle than +5 Con is to a high-level Sorcerer (in both cases it's a very useful secondary ability).
That actually is one of the reasons I limited how many arcane endowments a sorcerer can take. The cost isn't really "one feat" it's "one endowment" and a sorcerer is likely to want other endowments pretty badly.
5. Instinctive Understanding is interesting. As a sorceror it seems to be a double edged sword. If you dont pump in you wont have many skills to put into knowledges in the first place, but you might just spread what points you have around since obviously your charisma will be high. I like it, I really do, good to shut up those wanna be know it all wizards.
Yeah, it's for specific builds, obviously.
7. Minor nitpick: There is a slight error in the wording of Planar Caster on page 4:
"Use of the planar ability does not extend the casting time or effective spell level of the spell affected." Presumably you mean to say raise the effective spell level, and not imply that spell level might be somehow 'extended'.
Right. I'll see about cleaning that language up.
8. Natural Sorcery seems incomplete. How much does a spell slot increase the damage? Does this apply to claws or only the energy bolt type powers?
Yes, that got pointed out in the new products thread. It's +1 die per level of spell slot expended. And you can add it to claws, but you still get the extra dice for just one attack.
9. I like signature spell. It has a suitable limitation and can really put a bit of polish on the style of a given sorceror. Lord knows sorcs have their favorite spells. Though I wish i could get this at 8th level instead of 7th, as enervation would definately be my signature spell every time.
All the mroe reason to limit how often sorcerers can pick up endowments. :)
10. I am kind of torn on Sorcerous Sideboard. On the one hand it does alot to enhance the flexibility of the sorc, but at the same time, it is a push towards the headache of having to prepare spells. That seems to me like the wrong direction for sorcerors. Careful consideration of spells at prep time just seems wrong for sorcs. That and if you take it several times, along with say the human favored class bonus, you are stepping pretty hard on the wizards toes.
Having taken it 3 times at 7th level and having taken the human sorc favored class bonus at levels 4,5,6 and 7, you are choosing 7 of 10 cantrips, 7 of 10 1st level spells, 5 of 8 2nd levle spell and 2 of 5 3rd level spells.By contrast, the wizard is choosing to prepare 4 cantrips, 4 first level spells, 3 2nd level spells 2 3rd level spells and 1 4th level spell. Sure the wizard COULD have a bigger list of spells to choose from, but not MUCH bigger. I would have to see it in playtests to be sure, but it seems like a sorc built around this could easily overshadow a wizard of the same level in terms of flexibility.
How much bigger the wizard's spell list can be is going to depend heavily on campaign style. And in my experience the sorcerer still has the biggest spell selection limitation that ever actually coems up in play – she can't gain new spells known except when she levels up. The only time the ability to gain unlimited spells known ever really seems to come up is when the PCs know well in advance what they are dealing with, and the wizard can say "Gimme 5 days in town, and I can pick up transmute rock to mud and we'll just bury the golems of death in the caverns of ma'hund."
Not to mention the wizard in question didn't spend 3 feats to learn spells, or that the sorcerer could spend those three feats to know 6 extra spells available to him *all the time.*
11. Sorcerous summoning is intriguing. I very rarely use summoning as a sorceror, that may change looking at this. Though it may get complicated. If a dragonic sorceror summons a dolphin, does it grow limbs to make use of it's new claws feature?
No, they just grow clawed fin-gers. :)
Thats all for now. I'll post feedback for the rest of the contents as I get to them. Like I said it will take me some time to get through the whole product because I keep getting distracted by character ideas.
I look forward to it!
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Should I be feeling like we've been screwed out of our creation?Are these anything like the sigils and talents that we put out not too long ago? Cause if so, I'm sold!That was my first thought when I saw them.
So I have now followed the link provided to the sigils and talents. and I think they're really neat! Personally I don't think there's much overlap between them and Beyond Bloodlines.
In both cases, the core idea is to create (as you put in in your first post about sigls) "various options for sorcerers that do not require a decision to be made at character creation." In that regard, they are similar.
The core idea of sigils is to present power options to take instead of spells known. I think that's an awesome idea, and I hope you continue to expend it. I also think it could easily be the kernal of a professional rules supplement. That said, there is nothing in Beyond Bloodlines that uses that mechanic.
One third of Beyond Bloodlines is new sorcerer-only spells, but these truly are spells with normal casting times and components. They just happen to be spells that work with the themes and mechanics of sorcerers. No real similarity to sigils.
One third of Beyond Bloodliens is alternate builds for sorcerers, like the archetypes in Advanced Players Guide. No overlap there.
My "sorcerous endowments" are similar in a few ways to your talents, in that both are bought with feats, and both play with things sorcerers can do with metamagic, spells known, and gaining new abilities. I didn't see any exact overlap, and there are definitely some ideas in each set that aren't duplicated by anything in the other.
The only similarity I saw was the kind of inevitable overlap when two people start with a similar goal and are working in the same game system.
However, I don't want to ask you to just take my word for it. If you'd like, Umbral Reaver, drop me a line at owen (at) supergeniusgames (dot) com, and I'll be happy to give you a complimentary copy of Beyond Bloodlines, so you can judge for yourself. I'd just ask you report back to this thread after doing so.
I bought it and on the first quick run-through I have to say it's a great supplement for sorcerers. I like it a lot.
And this is (one reason of many) why SGG gets my money...
Sorry I didn't get on sooner.
The endowments take the place of feats, such as a wizards arcane discoveries, cept with endowments you need at least 3 levels in between, save from 1 to 3.
The talents you take instead of bloodline powers and the sigils in place of spells.
So no overlap. Just one more option for those of us that love sorcerers. I'm actually using this supplement for my sorcerer in an upcoming game and using some of our sigils and talents. I can't wait.
Should I be feeling like we've been screwed out of our creation?
I am trying, really hard, to make this a polite post.
I think it is way, way beyond rude to pop into someone's thread and publicly accuse them of plagiarism, and of screwing you based on a single line that one of their products reminded someone of an idea you've presented elsewhere.
In your very own thread, someone mentioned sigils and talents reminded them of reserve feats, and no one took that to mean you had screwed WotC out of their creation.
It's clear from your post you haven't bought the product. No one has suggested it's anything but wonderful. It would cost you all of $3 to check it out if you had a concern. making this kind of accusation without more evidence is unreasonable and ill-advised.
I have no idea what axe you have to grind with Super Genius Games, as I have seen you jump in and badmouth their products inappropriately before, but this action seems just vindictive and rude at best, and libelous at worst.
I was hasty in my irritance at seeing something that seemed so similar, but he is fully able to defend himself and did so. I am discussing things cordially with him in email from now on and I will thank you not to intrude.
interesting! added to cart. why couldn't this come out during your paizocon sale!?! /sniffle.
edit. oh wait, it still is. woooo!
I was hasty in my irritance at seeing something that seemed so similar, but he is fully able to defend himself and did so. I am discussing things cordially with him in email from now on and I will thank you not to intrude.
You made this public when you started it in a public forum. Everyone who has commented on, or even read, this thread has a fair right to comment on your actions taken in this thread. A private resolution to your public accusation is unfair to SGG, even if they themselves are too polite to say so.
I was hasty in my irritance at seeing something that seemed so similar, but he is fully able to defend himself and did so. I am discussing things cordially with him in email from now on and I will thank you not to intrude.You made this public when you started it in a public forum. Everyone who has commented on, or even read, this thread has a fair right to comment on your actions taken in this thread. A private resolution to your public accusation is unfair to SGG, even if they themselves are too polite to say so.
Hey folks, some tensions are running high. I understand that, but let's not get unpleasant with each other over what is, after all, a game. I appreciate efforts to support me, but I'd never advocate an increase in nastiness in the world (even restrained nastiness) on my account.
Umbral Reaver has in fact contacted me by email, which I very much appreciate, and I'm happy to consider the whole question happily settled.
Cool. Added to cart.
i had a question about the arcanavore endowment. when you assimilate a spell due to a failed saving throw, does that spells effects still affect you or are you consuming all of the spell, thereby taking no effect, to learn it.
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Hi, i've a question about Bedreven class:
It seems that Bedreven (unlike all other spellcasting classes, and unlike psions too) don't acquire extra slots or points for high INT.
Is that intentionally ? Or can you write how it should be ? (extra amount of pool or normal spell bonus gaining)Thanks really !!!
It looks like I'll be answering this one a lot, so obviously I should have included a sidebar. :)
The bedreven nearly got cut for balance issues. The ability to trade in all your low-level spells for a few high-level spells can lead to a serious alpha-strike, and allow a bedreven to nuke the first encounter each day, then insist a party needs to sit down and wait for her spells to return the next day.
It's a problem GMs who run any 3.x psionics characters may be familiar with, and it took a lot of playtesting to balance out. In the end, the fact it takes a full-round action for a bedreven to cast most spells seemed to do the trick. A bedreven may focus on higher-level spells, but unless she somehow manages to start ever sight with clear line-of-effect to all potential targets, she'll be slowed down by having to take move actions to line up her spells. That prevents her from simply throwing a high-level spell once a round every round.
But, the balance is tricky. In playtesting, it looked to me like a bedreven who pumps her Int to the exclusion of everything else gets a bigger benefit than other spellcasters who focus on one stat. So, to make sure bedreven didn't overshadow traditional spellcasters, I opted to not give them bonus spell points from a high ability score. They do get a benefit from a higher score (higher save DCs), so it's still an attractive choice, and obviously a bedreven wants a 19 Int eventually to cast 9th level spells.
If anyone decides they just have t give bedreven bonus spell points from a high Int, I recommend just adding the bedreven's Int bonus to her spell pool. If that's not good enough for you, try figuring out how many spell levels of bonus spells the bedreven would receive, and add that to her spell pool.
But be careful. Just a few extra spell points can make a big difference.
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i had a question about the arcanavore endowment. when you assimilate a spell due to a failed saving throw, does that spells effects still affect you or are you consuming all of the spell, thereby taking no effect, to learn it.
You suffer the effects normally. while doing it the other way is conceptually cool, it's also hideously overpowered. :)
So I've had a look at the rest of the product, and I am pleased. The new spells are interesting. I feel like every sorceror on the planet is going to want mnemonic alteration or transfiguration on a scroll or two even if they dont have it as one of their spells know. Though ofcourse that begs the question as to who is making these scrolls, but that is a separate can of worms.
The sanguine spells are also intriguing. Particularly for a draconic sorc/dragon disciple I have, that makes signficant use of his draconic bloodline powers.
The bedreven is looks like fun. I always liked spell points for the sorceror, though it almost seems like it should be an alternate class for the wizard instead of the sorceror. The fluff and the fact that it is int based makes me lean towards thiinking of the class as a wizard. But I guess that was the idea. Either way spells points/pool points are something i've used before and liked to a degree, so I can see this getting some use at my table. There are inherent nova problems, but I've dealt with them before in 3.5 and when using PF psionics, so its not an unfamiliar complication.
The scourge is also interesting. The concept of a battle sorceror has always intrigued me. However the combination of weapon casting and the loss of eschew materials raises some odd questions. It seems the need for material components offsets the principal adventage of weapon casting for most spells. You still need the hand free to reach into the component pouch, so not needing it to be free for somatic components is meaningless. That makes eschew materials almost a must take for this class in order to really gain the benefit of a class feature.
The strega I like conceptually but I do not like its execution. What purpose does restricting the stregas cantrips to 2 starting and a maximum of 4? It just seems unnecessary. I can see read magic and detect magic being important, but I dont see why the cantrips are cut from 4 to 2 starting, and never get past 4 when a sorceror will end up with 9 cantrips known. The ability to use hexes for spell slots is cool, but it just seems an odd tradeoff for the cantrips.
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So I've had a look at the rest of the product, and I am pleased.
Glad you like it! And thanks for the feedback.
The bedreven is looks like fun. I always liked spell points for the sorceror, though it almost seems like it should be an alternate class for the wizard instead of the sorceror.
Well, it's a spontaneous spellcaster with access to a sorcerer's bloodline. despite the fluff and switching it up to Intelligence, it seems closer to a sorcerer than a wizard in my mind... though in truth it's really a brand-new form of spellcaster.
The scourge is also interesting. The concept of a battle sorceror has always intrigued me. However the combination of weapon casting and the loss of eschew materials raises some odd questions. It seems the need for material components offsets the principal adventage of weapon casting for most spells. You still need the hand free to reach into the component pouch, so not needing it to be free for somatic components is meaningless. That makes eschew materials almost a must take for this class in order to really gain the benefit of a class feature.
Only if you pick spells that have material components. Which is not the case for (inhale) baleful polymorph, blindness/deafness, blink, blur, burning hands, cause fear, charm monster, charm person, chill touch, cloudkill, daylight, detect magic, dimension door, dispel magic, dominate person, enervation, expeditious retreat, eyebite, feather fall, fog cloud, geas (*lesser), heroism, keen edge, magic missile, mirror image, overland flight, phantasmal killer, protection from energy, rage, ray of enfeeblement, ray of frost, resist energy, scorching ray, shield, shocking grasp, shout, teleport, touch of idiocy, vampiric touch, and waves of fatigue just looking at the core rulebook.
And there are a lot of spells a battle mage ought to be putting up before combat, such as [false life and magic weapon (greater), when her weapon isn't drawn yet.
I'd also argue the soft glove needed for forceful hand and interposing hand can be worn (it's a focus), and the air needed for elemental body's air-form is normally all around you, but that's rules-interpretation, I admit.
But the point is you can make a very, very effective battle mage without Eschew Materials if you choose to.
The strega I like conceptually but I do not like its execution. What purpose does restricting the stregas cantrips to 2 starting and a maximum of 4?
They have to give up power somewhere to be balanced. Instead of lots of cantrips, they get a few cantrips and a few hexes.
I'd also argue the soft glove needed for forceful hand and interposing hand can be worn (it's a focus), and the air needed for elemental body's air-form is normally all around you, but that's rules-interpretation, I admit.
Huh. I NEVER thought about that. How do you hold "air" in most cases? It it a M or F for any other spells?
And I agree about being able to just wear a soft glove Focus.