Yes. A merciful acid splash is still a 0-level spell therefore an at-will cantrip.
let s say you either apply the non lethal damage metamagic to a cantrip or you use a cantrip with magical lineage and a +1 lvl metamagic feat.
Is the cantrip still count as a cantrip?
Actually, I believe that any metamagic feat that raises the spell level raises the level of the cantrip. Thus a +1 level metamagic feat raises the cantrip to a 1st level spell.
the thing is, just like a sorcerer may cast her 1st-level spells 6/day (+ bonus spells from high Cha etc etc), Cantrip, by the sole virtue of using 0-level spell slot (or spells known in this case), may be cast at will. Therefore, as long as the final spell level still remains 0, it may be cast at will. Since Magical Lineage allows the character to choose a single spell and reduce the metamagic-adjusted spell level by 1 (so a quickened, maximized acid splash as a magical lineage takes a 6th-level slot instead of 7th), a Silent acid splash w/ magical lineage still takes a 0-level slot, therefore one may cast it at-will.
However, choosing an at-will power to be affected with Magical Lineage trait is somewhat suboptimal, if I may be excused to say so.
I agree, if the final spell level is 0, it is still castable at will.
However, choosing an at-will power to be affected with Magical Lineage trait is somewhat suboptimal, if I may be excused to say so.
Maybe not. An Acid Splash spell with the Toppling Metamagic Feat and Magical Lineage would be an at will, ranged touch damage and trip attack. It would even scale to a certain extent.
Or in an Undead heavy campaign, do the same with Disrupt Undead.
Yes. A merciful acid splash is still a 0-level spell therefore an at-will cantrip.It's been ruled otherwise. Basically if it takes a slot other than zero level, it's no longer a cantrip, but a spell that's expended like any other.
And a merciful cantrip is still using a zero level slot.
A 0 level spell rasied by meta magic feat is higher level spell.
If you want to make subual dealing canptrip make one. If home game.
If society then you have to wait till some one put it in "Book" wich they should.
A 0 level spell rasied by meta magic feat is higher level spell.
If you want to make subual dealing canptrip make one. If home game.
If society then you have to wait till some one put it in "Book" wich they should.
Ok,
Then what level is a Merciful Acid Splash?
A 0 level spell rasied by meta magic feat is higher level spell.
If you want to make subual dealing canptrip make one. If home game.
If society then you have to wait till some one put it in "Book" wich they should.
But the point is that the "Merciful" metamagic feat does not raise the level of the spell that it is applied to. That does mean that this issue is not clarified by the rules.
I am not sure of how the "Magical Lineage" trait would interact here.
some people are complicating this.
So I was saying, lets take a lvl 0 spell. and apply a metamagic feat to it does not raise its lvl. Either the nonlethal metamagic spell which is +0 or you pick up the magical lineage trait for a lvl 0 spell and then you can apply a +1 lvl increasing metamagic to it(like still spell) and it looks like magical lineage would cancel out the increase. Thus I would think the spell would still count as a reusable cantrip.
I agree. I'm not sure how people are trying to rule otherwise above. What level would they use? A level 1 spell? Despite the fact that it's not anymore?
But the point is that the "Merciful" metamagic feat does not raise the level of the spell that it is applied to. That does mean that this issue is not clarified by the rules.A 0 level spell rasied by meta magic feat is higher level spell.
If you want to make subual dealing canptrip make one. If home game.
If society then you have to wait till some one put it in "Book" wich they should.
Sure it is, metamagic says the spell is now the adjusted level. A level 0 spell is a cantrip. A cantrip is at will.
Well things like a Magical Lineage Merciful Magic Missile (MLMMM?) is a very fickle issue to be sure. RAW, it takes up a 0-level slot but the core of the problem is with the trait Magical Lineage having no minimum reduction limit, not with the actual spell level to usage/day interaction.
I was just unsure about this part because I remembered there being a magical lineage thread where someone tried to say that you could have merciful magic missiles as cantrips. and devs came and said, something like bringing magic missile down to lvl 0 will not make it a cantrip.
Sure it is, metamagic says the spell is now the adjusted level. A level 0 spell is a cantrip. A cantrip is at will.
Yeah,
But that's because Magical Lineage wasn't meant to reduce a spell's level below it's original level. Basically, the trait only reduces the adjustment cost of the metamagic by one level, not the spell itself. Since MM is a 1st level spell, it can't go down to Cantrip if you put merciful on it (which was the argument). The Magical Lineage trait is poorly worded for it's intended usage.
some people are complicating this.
So I was saying, lets take a lvl 0 spell. and apply a metamagic feat to it does not raise its lvl. Either the nonlethal metamagic spell which is +0 or you pick up the magical lineage trait for a lvl 0 spell and then you can apply a +1 lvl increasing metamagic to it(like still spell) and it looks like magical lineage would cancel out the increase. Thus I would think the spell would still count as a reusable cantrip.
Like I've said before this horse was beaten quite thoroughly and Jacobs and other Paizo folks have ruled on it. If the spell is no longer in a zero level slot it is NOT A CANTRIP, specifically to rule out cheesemonkeying on this order.
When you apply metamagic, the spells level is raised for the purpose of what slot it has to occupy. Slots above first level ARE expended when the spells in them are cast. End of story.
You want to houserule it differently fine. You don't need any vindication here to validate what you do behind closed doors.
What Paizo should do to clarify things is that a spell that's raised, or origninates above zero level by metamagic can not be lowered below first.
LazerX?
Before you rant, could you please read the thread?
Cantrip (Acid Splash, Level 0 Cantrip) has Merciful applied to it. Merciful is a +0 Metamagic. 0 + 0 = 0. Still a Cantrip?
Magical Lineage applied to Acid Splash. Cantrip (Acid Splash, Level 0 Cantrip) is a Magical Lineage spell. Has Enlarge applied to it (doubles range). 0 + 1 - 1 = 0. Still a Cantrip?
Nobody is saying 'Take level 1 spell and cast it as cantrip'. Nobody has said 'Take 0 level spell, apply +1 to it, treat as cantrip'. If you took an Acid Splash and applied maximize to it, nobody is saying you can cast it at will.
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Yeah, I'm sure a non-lethal 1d3 damage is worth a level 1 spell and a feat.
/Iron(ical)man
Applying a +0 metamagic to a 0 spell still gives a 0-level cantrip. This is no houserule at all. And I'll thumbs up the munchkin who happens to break the game with a "sucky" metamagic on a sucky spell.
BTW, magical lineage extracts -1 to te final level of a spell after applying metamagic, if the metamagic feat actually increases the level of the spell.
So, free +1 metamagic on one spell, like a free toppling on magic missile, not free -1 level to a spell.
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Yeah, I'm sure a non-lethal 1d3 damage is worth a level 1 spell and a feat.
/Iron(ical)man
Oh fun, now there's two of them.
To get back to the *actual* topic, it seems to me that although a cantrip cast at level 1+ is not at-will, and a non-cantrip cast at level 0 is not at will, it would still be reasonable to assume that a cantrip cast at level 0 would be at-will despite the presence of a brief algorithm.
the thing is, just like a sorcerer may cast her 1st-level spells 6/day (+ bonus spells from high Cha etc etc), Cantrip, by the sole virtue of using 0-level spell slot (or spells known in this case), may be cast at will. Therefore, as long as the final spell level still remains 0, it may be cast at will. Since Magical Lineage allows the character to choose a single spell and reduce the metamagic-adjusted spell level by 1 (so a quickened, maximized acid splash as a magical lineage takes a 6th-level slot instead of 7th), a Silent acid splash w/ magical lineage still takes a 0-level slot, therefore one may cast it at-will.
However, choosing an at-will power to be affected with Magical Lineage trait is somewhat suboptimal, if I may be excused to say so.
I did not cacth that mercfull was +0 level ajustment. ( Did not know that there are such as + 0 level )
So I would let it fly.
I would also let a plus 1 level adjustment spell that was brought back down to level O with trait & ablty fly if the final math equaled to 0.
If a level O spell if my game is broken by level 0 spell then I need to rethink my game. Point my home game. Not Socitey play cause I do not make those rules. If that is your goal more your thread to Socitey section.
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To get back to the *actual* topic, it seems to me that although a cantrip cast at level 1+ is not at-will, and a non-cantrip cast at level 0 is not at will, it would still be reasonable to assume that a cantrip cast at level 0 would be at-will despite the presence of a brief algorithm.
A cantrip cast at level +1 uses a level 1 spell slot.
You can't cast a non-cantrip at level 0.A cantrip with a +0 metamagic feat applied is still 0-level spell, and so a cantrip.
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To get back to the *actual* topic, it seems to me that although a cantrip cast at level 1+ is not at-will, and a non-cantrip cast at level 0 is not at will, it would still be reasonable to assume that a cantrip cast at level 0 would be at-will despite the presence of a brief algorithm.A cantrip cast at level +1 uses a level 1 spell slot.
You can't cast a non-cantrip at level 0.
A cantrip with a +0 metamagic feat applied is still 0-level spell, and so a cantrip.
Is there an echo in here? ;)
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let s say you either apply the non lethal damage metamagic to a cantrip or you use a cantrip with magical lineage and a +1 lvl metamagic feat.
Is the cantrip still count as a cantrip?
Despite multiple statements in this thread, a metamagic feat that requires a +x for the spell slot does not make it a higher level spell. It is, however, prepared and cast as a higher level spell.
"Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up." and "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."
An empowered acid splash, if you chose to cast it, would take a 2nd level slot. It would be cast as a 2nd level spell (whatever that means, which would be the reason to say it can't be cast at will, though). It would still be a 0 level spell.
If one of the developers has posted an unofficial ruling on it, that's cool, and an official FAQ reply would be welcomed. I've added the topic to the FAQ needed thread.
Just to throw more confusion into the fire, what if you took Spell Perfection on that spell, and threw quicken on it when you cast it? Could you get an at-will, swift action, disruptive cantrip?
It's not the most productive use of those abilities, but even in the 15-20 range where you can have spell perfection, it's still useful to force someone to make a DC 30+spell level concentration check every round to cast spells, with no resource expenditure (beyond a swift action, which often goes unused anyway).
If a level O spell if my game is broken by level 0 spell then I need to rethink my game. Point my home game. Not Socitey play cause I do not make those rules. If that is your goal more your thread to Socitey section.
This is the "Rules forum" and the question put forth by the OP is most definitely appropriate here, regardless of PFS play or not (As society play follows the same core rules with another set of restrictions fully outlined in the document for that setting). This forum is for how things work by the book, not how you decided to run them differently in your home games (which would be the advice/home brew forums).
Just to throw more confusion into the fire, what if you took Spell Perfection on that spell, and threw quicken on it when you cast it? Could you get an at-will, swift action, disruptive cantrip?
It's not the most productive use of those abilities, but even in the 15-20 range where you can have spell perfection, it's still useful to force someone to make a DC 30+spell level concentration check every round to cast spells, with no resource expenditure (beyond a swift action, which often goes unused anyway).
A Disruptive (+1), Quickened (+4) Acid Splash (0-level) with Magical Lineage (-1) and Spell Perfection (negates Quicken) would indeed be a cantrip RAW.
But since it's a cantrip, the DC is going to be pretty low; assuming the caster has, say 30 Int (+10 to DC), the concentration check is DC 20 + spell level. It is not 30 because the base DC of this concentration check is just the saving throw DC of the disruptive spell (10 + 0 + 10).
Just in case if anyone thinks Acid Splash is an inappropriate candidate for Disruptive Spell because it has no saving throw DC (just ranged touch), Flare is an acceptible alternative with the added benefit of lacking somatic components.
Back to the topic, any caster worth its salt at that level (15-20) should be able to make that save quite easily. If we assumed the target to be the same level and gear (therefore the same primary ability modifier), at level 15 she has +25 to save against DC 20 + spell level. With Combat Casting, it's a given.
I can see how it may be troublesome to the partial casters who may not max out their primary casting ability but then again, their concentration DC is proportionately low because of their lower spell level access. I doubt a 15th-level magus would have much trouble using his Intensified Shocking Grasp (DC 22) every round, for example.
So while it is a valid tactic and may bring the party a nice surprise here and there, it is not worth the 15th-level feat slot to do something as mundane, especially if you're burning through the precious Swift Action to cast the quickened spell. It is much more advantageous to, say, get a Quickened Baleful Polymorph (w/ Spell Perfection), cast it once on an enemy spellcaster and proceed to ignore the fluffy little bunny, for example.
Feats are one of the more limited resources in PF. Spending 4 feat slots for a single trick (well, spell focus: conjuration could be used to qualify for augmented summoning, I suppose) seems too much of an investment, especially considering how a single casting of a higher-level spell can do essentially the same thing.
But I do agree that it is a neat trick to pull off, but what I wanted to point out was that cost-benefit analysis of the strategy has a lot of room for improvement, that's all.
Maybe it would be useful for a one-off session of high-level characters, possibly pitting off against each other arena-style? Probably yes, but even then only against spellcasters. Other characters do it better with the much-hated Antagonize or anything that causes deafness.
This is the "Rules forum" and the question put forth by the OP is most definitely appropriate here, regardless of PFS play or not (As society play follows the same core rules with another set of restrictions fully outlined in the document for that setting). This forum is for how things work by the book, not how you decided to run them differently in your home games (which would be the advice/home brew forums).If a level O spell if my game is broken by level 0 spell then I need to rethink my game. Point my home game. Not Socitey play cause I do not make those rules. If that is your goal more your thread to Socitey section.
true but rule are nill one this topic so all I can truly give is my opinion. Can give more hard facted based ruling and sight your source? Cause I for one would like to hear it cause I can not find one. Are do you want talk about my posting style which still dose not answer the question. Cause did not see you offer any help to answer the question.
true but rule are nill one this topic so all I can truly give is my opinion. Can give more hard facted based ruling and sight your source? Cause I for one would like to hear it cause I can not find one. Are do you want talk about my posting style which still dose not answer the question. Cause did not see you offer any help to answer the question.This is the "Rules forum" and the question put forth by the OP is most definitely appropriate here, regardless of PFS play or not (As society play follows the same core rules with another set of restrictions fully outlined in the document for that setting). This forum is for how things work by the book, not how you decided to run them differently in your home games (which would be the advice/home brew forums).If a level O spell if my game is broken by level 0 spell then I need to rethink my game. Point my home game. Not Socitey play cause I do not make those rules. If that is your goal more your thread to Socitey section.
Rules aren't "nil" on the subject, a cantrip with a +0 level adjustment is still a cantrip "spell slot", not some made up slot because people don't like the idea of an unlimited use minor damage ability that allows SR and a save... it is basic math, 0+0=0. A zero level spell that is bumped up a level (+1 level) by metamagic then further adjusted with a trait/ability that lowers the cost of a metamagic adjustment by 1 still leaves you with a zero level spell. 0+1-1=0. If you need more information on the subject I suggest reading the metamagic feats and the magical lineage trait. Of course, that all is just a rehash of what has already been said in the thread so I didn't believe it necessary to restate it until just now with you asking.
That being said, if warlocks didn't break the game (and they didn't), an at will cantrip which took a feat and a half to get (and doesn't scale...) won't either.
true but rule are nill one this topic so all I can truly give is my opinion. Can give more hard facted based ruling and sight your source? Cause I for one would like to hear it cause I can not find one. Are do you want talk about my posting style which still dose not answer the question. Cause did not see you offer any help to answer the question.This is the "Rules forum" and the question put forth by the OP is most definitely appropriate here, regardless of PFS play or not (As society play follows the same core rules with another set of restrictions fully outlined in the document for that setting). This forum is for how things work by the book, not how you decided to run them differently in your home games (which would be the advice/home brew forums).If a level O spell if my game is broken by level 0 spell then I need to rethink my game. Point my home game. Not Socitey play cause I do not make those rules. If that is your goal more your thread to Socitey section.
Rules aren't "nil" on the subject, a cantrip with a +0 level adjustment is still a cantrip "spell slot", not some made up slot because people don't like the idea of an unlimited use minor damage ability that allows SR and a save... it is basic math, 0+0=0. A zero level spell that is bumped up a level (+1 level) by metamagic then further adjusted with a trait/ability that lowers the cost of a metamagic adjustment by 1 still leaves you with a zero level spell. 0+1-1=0. If you need more information on the subject I suggest reading the metamagic feats and the magical lineage trait. Of course, that all is just a rehash of what has already been said in the thread so I didn't believe it necessary to restate it until just now with you asking.
That being said, if warlocks didn't break the game (and they didn't), an at will cantrip which took a feat and a half to get (and doesn't scale...) won't either.
Please give your source(Book and Page) for your ruleing. So we all can be enlighted. Are is this just your thoughts. (Oh wich agrees with every thing I said)
While I'd agree to disagree with people who believe at will cantrips/orisons are an overkill on an already powerful spellcasters, I just don't understand what all the fuss is about around this particular issue. A spell that takes up 0-level spell slot is cast at-will and that's what a cantrip/orison is. Just because it's called otherwise makes no difference whatsoever. Saying "no it's not" is simply voicing out one's opinions and houserules not a concrete rule both as intended and as written. Well, maybe not the magical lineage merciful magic missile stuff, but as said ad nauseum, that's a case of badly worded trait not the actual spell level to per day interaction.
Cantrips
Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Please give your source(Book and Page) for your ruleing. So we all can be enlighted. Are is this just your thoughts. (Oh wich agrees with every thing I said)
C'mon, this isn't rocket science. A spell uses a spell slot of its final adjusted spell level once all metamagic feats, traits, and whatnot, are calculated. If it uses a 1st level slot, you expend a 1st level spell slot casting it. If it uses a 0 level slot, you expend a 0 level spell slot to cast it. You just happen to have an infinite number of 0 level spell slots.
While I'd agree to disagree with people who believe at will cantrips/orisons are an overkill on an already powerful spellcasters, I just don't understand what all the fuss is about around this particular issue. A spell that takes up 0-level spell slot is cast at-will and that's what a cantrip/orison is. Just because it's called otherwise makes no difference whatsoever. Saying "no it's not" is simply voicing out one's opinions and houserules not a concrete rule both as intended and as written. Well, maybe not the magical lineage merciful magic missile stuff, but as said ad nauseum, that's a case of badly worded trait not the actual spell level to per day interaction.
Cantrips
Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Personally, I let sorcerers learn metamagic'd versions of spells if they want, and let them cast them normally. So in other words, a sorcerer could learn Acid Splash and Merciful Acid Splash (if he had the Merciful Feat) and cast either or as a standard action. But if he wanted to apply Merciful to his Magic Missile, and hadn't learned Merciful Magic Missile, he'd have to follow the normal Metamagic rules for sorcerer's casting.
Basic Math? Its one of the skills (along with some degree of reading comprehension) necessary to play this game. If its too much feel free to use a calculator.0+0=0. 0+1-1=0.Please give your source(Book and Page) for your ruleing. So we all can be enlighted. Are is this just your thoughts. (Oh wich agrees with every thing I said)
And you and I agree on the math and that what I said. If you read my post and keep up with the thread.
Point is sky got upset with my use my home game/Society Point and want RAW hard fast Rule not My Point of view. Which you still did not give. You to have given just your point of view as well. No Hard Fact Is Cantrip that is change in level still a Cantrip there for able to be a at will power?
Point is sky got upset with my use my home game/Society Point and want RAW hard fast Rule not My Point of view. Which you still did not give. You to have given just your point of view as well. No Hard Fact Is Cantrip that is change in level still a Cantrip there for able to be a at will power?Actually the hard fact is: If you start at 0, and end at 0 there has been no change.
Whic Is what I SaidChange: to become different.And It did change It not the same spell any one due to fact of the Meta magie Feat in the Given of Posed Question at the top of thead.
Does RAW have to explicitly spell out that if you have something and it doesn't change it, its the same as it was before it didn't change?
And that what orgial poster is looking for.RAW Ruling not my point of View that SKY pointed out. EVEN thought SKY, SHADOW CAT and I ALL Agree that is sholud be able to still used as cantrip due to the Fact net change in level of the spell is 0. That I Said in my early post. Math was the Same.... Please reread thead form the begaining to now ans see that all three of us are saying the same thing.
And you and I agree on the math and that what I said. If you read my post and keep up with the thread.
Point is sky got upset with my use my home game/Society Point and want RAW hard fast Rule not My Point of view. Which you still did not give. You to have given just your point of view as well. No Hard Fact Is Cantrip that is change in level still a Cantrip there for able to be a at will power?
You assume too much, like me being upset. My issue with your post was that you told the OP to go to the PFS forum (when PFS wasn't even mentioned) about an issue regarding something very appropriately placed in the Rules Forum. A place where people come to see how things should work by the book (aka RAW). If they were interested in how other people ran the "something", I imagine they would post in the General or Advice Forum.
I then explained where you could look for the rules regarding metamagic adjustments and how they interact (basic math). If you need more help than that I am sadly unable to help you.
Feats are one of the more limited resources in PF. Spending 4 feat slots for a single trick (well, spell focus: conjuration could be used to qualify for augmented summoning, I suppose) seems too much of an investment, especially considering how a single casting of a higher-level spell can do essentially the same thing.
Well, it works better if you're an evocation specialist and you're bumping your primary damage spells with the four focus feats (or similar with enchantment and daze, etc). Then you're really only spending one feat and one trait specifically on that ability, but you still have the high DCs.
It's kindof like preemptive counterspelling by using your swift action instead of your standard (to ready).
let s say you either apply the non lethal damage metamagic to a cantrip or you use a cantrip with magical lineage and a +1 lvl metamagic feat.
Is the cantrip still count as a cantrip?
Yes.
Excuse the Necro, this is the most relevant thread for this question. Magical Lineage + Ray of Frost with the Rime Spell feat.
It's a level 0 spell, with a +1-1=0 Level adjustment.
So, it does 1d3 damage and entangles a target.
Thoughts?
Whoops, nevermind, missed that the entangle would be for 0 rounds.
