RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hey guys,
So a player in one of my games mentioned the idea of an all-Rogue party. I scoffed at him at first, then I started thinking, could a rogue really replace all the other party roles? Here's what I was thinking, in general:
Tank: The rogue would have to be built around lots of combat feats, and would definitely have to get a high AC. I would think you'd put your highest ability score in Con, then Str, then Dex. Maybe put a few points into Cha for Intimidate, but bottom out Wis and Int. Also, the Thug alternative class features from the APG would be super useful. For feats, he would progress through the Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave set, then take a few random feats that would give him more damage. To get sneak damage, it would be all about flanking, because this guy would not be a sneaky character at all.
Archer: There are several different builds I thought about for this one, but the one I am most interested in is taking a single level of Oracle at first level for the Waves revelation Water Sight, and then taking Rogue levels after that. (Disclaimer: I saw this build here on the forums, I didn't come up with it all on my own) Each battle, she would cast Obscuring mist around herself and then be able to shoot out of the mist with no penalty and get sneak damage because opponents wouldn't be able to see into the mist. Dex would obviously be the first ability score, then maybe Int, then Strength so that she could use a composite longbow. The Sniper alternate abilities in the APG are also an obvious choice.
Support Caster: This one is more tricky, and involves a lot of Major Magic rogue talents and a lot of wands. He would also be the crafting monkey of the group, taking Master Craftsman as soon as possible, then Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item. Ability scores would be completely focused on Int and Cha, with all of the physical ability scores being 10 or less.
Damage Caster: Again, this guy would be mostly using wands to try to get sneak damage with rays. I could use the same trick I used with the Archer, taking a single level of Oracle at 1st and using Water Sight and Obscuring mist to sneak with lots of ray attacks. Ability scores would be Int then Dex then Cha, most likely.I was also thinking that this character could be the sneaky one out of battle, maybe taking the Cutpurse abilities and stealing money for all those wands and other magic items that he'll need.
Do you guys have any suggestions on ways to make these characters as useful as possible? I imagine these four characters adventuring next to a standard Rogue build and sweeping enemies under the rug, with the Tank and the standard Rogue flanking enemies and the archer and damage caster staying back in their mist, protecting the support caster while dealing tons of damage.
I briefly played in a rogue-oriented campaign and it was a lot of fun. We multiclassed a bit to further define roles, and had a lot of wands, etc. It was memorable.
A fighter/rogue or two, a cleric/rogue and an arcane trickster can use stealth to pull off some things a regular party would have a hard time doing. Of course, they weren't as effective as a straight party in a dungeon crawl, but they got by.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hey guys,
So a player in one of my games mentioned the idea of an all-Rogue party. I scoffed at him at first, then I started thinking, could a rogue really replace all the other party roles?An all rogue party would not approach encounters like a standard party would.. this is the first thing to understand if you're going to DM one.
An all rogue party could be undetected while a typical party is, by contrast, advertising for the monsters to come and eat them.
This party will like to choose its fights and the timing thereof, etc. Some fights will be hit and run as well.
If the group can get into a different mindset this can be a blast. But you as the DM ALSO have to get into that different mindset and let them do what rogues do.
-James
Very good points there, James. If I were the DM for a party like this, I would probably make the campaign very storyline-based, allowing the rogues to use their skills outside of battle a lot. I would also include a lot of traps in dungeons, to force the more standard Rogue to still do his job, since the others will not focus on trapfinding.
This is my "tank" rogue!
greataxe
rogue acrobat
greataxe and shortbow!
toughness for first feat!
Very good points there, James. If I were the DM for a party like this, I would probably make the campaign very storyline-based, allowing the rogues to use their skills outside of battle a lot. I would also include a lot of traps in dungeons, to force the more standard Rogue to still do his job, since the others will not focus on trapfinding.
Tthat's how our campaign went. We often had "jobs" in which we didn't fight at all. The object was to avoid detection and get away clean. Leaving bodies behind put a damper on that.
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Tank: Rogue can do this job. Just make a Str base RogueXX/Ranger6. Dex 15 needed for Double slice. Big mastake made is thinking AC will mater past level 10 or so. It's harder at lower levels not haven AC. Past level 10 you wont notice the difrence. In +5 full plate and +5 chain shirt. You will notice the difrence in how much damage your doing.
Archer: This is a wast of space in a all rogue party. All the rogues can rang with a short bow. The problem is geting sneak attack at range is not worth the efort needed to do it. You can just have a exta Tank rogue sneak up and kill.
Support Caster: Not somthing you will have play around it.
Damage Caster: Not somthing you need ever! Don't care what kind of party you have damage base spell casters are not that good.
What your missing in crowed control. And flow of battle spells. Now this will be the real problem for the party.
Add one bard then you have every thing you need. And they have stealth. So they can go with the rest of the party sneaking around. But they have buff spells, Inspire Courage(This will realy help a party of all 3/4 BAB.), and Cure Spells.
PS. Bard here in refeard to by the party as the Barninja. Was a nice character I played in CoT. With the trait Vagavond Child(Disable Device). You can almost do very thing a rogue can. With a high Cha make people think you are a rogue.
Teamwork feats would be fun in a highly tactical skilled group
If you're going to play a heavy rogue game, keep in mind that there are far more encounters then simply Monsters/NPCs!
Weather, Traps, various terrain hazards, they're all encounters and reward XP based on their CR. I find that Rogue games are much more fun when combat is "optional" and serves a very specific point. The rest of it can be encounters gathering information, research, and exploration.
Makes for a very fun game. :)
I think a Thieves Guild campaign would be fun. All rogues is a bit extreme, but rogue, ranger, inquisitor, monk, sorcerer with a bloodline that grants Stealth as a class skill or arcane bloodline/wizard (illusionist?)/witch with familiar that grants +3 to Stealth, bard, oracle with Stealth (maybe even a homebrew Shadow Mystery--or does UM have one?), etc. etc. With multiclassing and traits, you can get some really fun combos.
We did this in 3.5, and I had a really fun and effective spellthief that used a longspear and Improved Feint to great effect.
I just read Scott Lynch's "The Lies of Locke Lamora" and "Red Seas Under Red Skies" and it really got the juices flowing for a caper-based campaign.
First off, I'll let you know that I am utterly, insanely jealous.
Might I suggest a look at improved grapple and the amazing greater version?
The rules are a little shaky. I'd suggest you look at this post for a good overview.
Basically, the grappled condition allows your allies (but not you) to sneak attack opponents, while the pinned condition allows you to do the same. It should be fantastic for picking off isolated enemies, and grabbing someone while another threatens to (and quite possibly does) knife them in the gut seems to have the right flavour of underhanded.
I imagine the dirty trick manuever could garner the same sort of results.
Also some of the APG talents (such as assault leader at 2nd level and opportunist at 2nd) will allow you to grant each other additional attacks while flanking, which will be fantastic.
This is a lot more feasible with Archetypes. You are still going to be short of magic, but you at least have a grasp on it.
An all Rogue Campaign? Ocean's Eleven anyone?
If I were to do it, they would probably be more like this:
Inside man/woman - Spy Archetype
The Security Guru - Trapsmith
Outside support - Sniper
The Pickpocket (optional) - Cutpurse
And finally The Thief - Acrobat or Burglar
This sounds like a crack team to me.
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One of my groups did an "all rogue" party once. Everyone had ranks in Stealth at a minimum. We even had a Frenzied Berserker, who politely put 0 ranks into Perception. It happened more than once that he frenzied and we all just hid and waited until the noise stopped.
All rogue is quite doable.
Everyone needs offensive defense. This really buffs everybody's AC.
Archer can work if someone else takes distracting attack and uses it to make the enemy flatfooted to the archer.
you can further prevent allies from being hit if your main melee is a Scoutand brute archetype, with Conrugan Smash/Shatter defenses.
He charges in auto SA (scout's charge) with offensive Defense, Conrugan Smash is auto check for shaken (-2 to hit), Brutal Beating adds sickened (another -2). Said enemy is now -4 to hit anyone.
The main melee also needs Menacing on his weapon so everybody gets +4 from flanking.
All Rogue is fun. Done that :3
We didn't even do multiclassing (at least as of yet).
The GM has to simply adjust a bit. Like you can be Robin Hood like guys (rob the rich, give the poor). So not so typical dungeon dwellers who have to go to smelly places and fight undead and stuff.
You will probably need to have at least some multiclassing. Having an Arcane Trickster is going to be incredibly helpful. If the flavor of the campaign is more important than the mechanics a cleric with the thievery, or trickery domains would fit in. An urban ranger would make a decent tank maybe even multiclassing with rogue.
How far does this concept stretch? Would any of the following work in this idea of a group?
Sandman bard
Vivisectionist/internal alchemist -- monk (a 'holistic' doctor)
arcane trickster
urban druid -- master spy
I think a regular rogue would still do fine in such a party (he's going to have more sneak attack than anyone else in the party) -- but this would extend the options a bit more without really going full monty I think.
A Stealth-based Inquisitor might make a decent leader, providing healing and bonus Teamwork feats to the...team. A monk could be the uber-grappler that grapples the BBEG everyone puts their pointy bits into. An urban ranger as the primary tank, and a couple regular rogues to fill out the ranks, possibly supported by an arcane trickster.
Heck, an underworld war might be a fun campaign, with the PCs taking on other Thieves Guild-based parties. Ninjas, corrupt monks, hatchet-wielding barbarian-rogues, pirates, kidnappers, bank robbers, snipers, acrobats, cutpurses, etc. etc.