Hi,
as my dwarf found a Ring of Sustenance lately and are working on his magic weapon (only the enchantment, not the smithing) I thought how would this fit together?
Our group has very short downtimes, so we're most time "on the run".
From RAW one day (during which you spent ~ 4 hours for crafting) "in the field" count as 2 hours crafting time.
But what is if you have a Ring of Sustenance?
The group need to rest at least 10 hours (we have three spellcasters and me, so from guard rotation you're at 10 hours), from this I only need 2 hours rest, so 8 hours left.
Can I work this time at my weapon enchantment? and if yes, how much did it count?
I would guess half (to stay in line with the 4/2 hours of "in field crafting"), so from this each day in field would count as 6 hours instead of 2.
What do you think?
What do you think?
Nope.
Any explanation why?^^
Yes, you can get some extra crafting in with the ring of sustenance.
If you are on the road, remember that you only get 50% credit for the time you spend. Note that if you are working on things requiring banging then you may disturb your friends.
However, unless you want to have issues with fatigue, you will have to do something along the following.
8 hours travel/adventuring.
Make camp
4 hours of crafting -> 2 hours credit.
Sleep 2 hours.
8 hours crafting -> 4 hours credit.
Sleep 2 hours.
Get up, go adventuring again.
Note that you're getting 6 hours of crafting per day on the road. If you are in town, with full supplies, then you can get up to about 16 hours a day crafting (sleeping between shifts).
I remember seeing somewhere that if you didn't get your 8 hours of sleep, you had a chance of being fatigued. But I can't seem to find rules for that...
Yes, you can get some extra crafting in with the ring of sustenance.
If you are on the road, remember that you only get 50% credit for the time you spend. Note that if you are working on things requiring banging then you may disturb your friends.
However, unless you want to have issues with fatigue, you will have to do something along the following.
8 hours travel/adventuring.
Make camp
4 hours of crafting -> 2 hours credit.
Sleep 2 hours.
8 hours crafting -> 4 hours credit.
Sleep 2 hours.
Get up, go adventuring again.Note that you're getting 6 hours of crafting per day on the road. If you are in town, with full supplies, then you can get up to about 16 hours a day crafting (sleeping between shifts).
Also if you're a spell caster you need eight hours of rest to renew your spells(prayer for clerics, study for wizards, etc).
You can get six hours of crafting only if you don't renew your spells.
More importantly, there's an upper limit on time spent per day:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.
So even with a ring of sustenance, you top out at 8 hours spent, 4 hours credit per day in the field.
You can't work more than 8 hours a day.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
The only thing the ring does is prevent you from starving to death if you have no food. It doesn't do anything about basic needs for rest.
And lets wizards regain spells after 2 hours of rest.
Ok, checked the SRD:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. [...] Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
So from this, you only get additional 6 hours, because working during your watch ist already included into these 4 hours.
Also the rules are a little bit contrdict first it saysThis time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.
then
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.
ignoring the second part, you would get a time shedule like this
8 hours travel/adventuring
2 hours Set up the camp, eating etc.
2 hours rest
2,5 hours watch (using a 4 player group and 10 hours rest (see above))(counting toward the normal 4/2)
5,5 hours "free time"
1 hour preparing spells
2 hours break down the camp, eating etc.
1 hour left as opt time
As for easy calculation I would summ up the "opt time" to the "free time" = 6,5 and half it (round down) so 3 additional hours of crafting.
That brings us to 5 hours/day in the field.
The only thing the ring does is prevent you from starving to death if you have no food. It doesn't do anything about basic needs for rest.And lets wizards regain spells after 2 hours of rest.
Incorrect. A wizard only needs two hours of sleep, but must still rest for eight hours to properly regain spells. I'm on an iPad and can't link, but check the wizard section in the core book.
More importantly, there's an upper limit on time spent per day:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.So even with a ring of sustenance, you top out at 8 hours spent, 4 hours credit per day in the field.
This is because the core rules are built based upon normal humans with no magic items.
The ring let's you get an entire 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours. When you get 8 hours of sleep, you are 'resetting' the day again. It's just as if you had spent a day doing things, and then slept normally all night.
If you are a caster, this doesn't help you much, since you must have 8 hours rest (as stated above). However, with the new rules concerning the ability to craft without magic (master craftsman feat), a non-caster could get more work done.
Please note the quoted rule above references caster. This is a limit that applies to casters due to their needing 8 hours of rest or they can't get spells again. A non-caster who crafts has no need for 8 hours of rest.
It seems this would be useful:
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Incorrect. A wizard only needs two hours of sleep, but must still rest for eight hours to properly regain spells. I'm on an iPad and can't link, but check the wizard section in the core book.The only thing the ring does is prevent you from starving to death if you have no food. It doesn't do anything about basic needs for rest.And lets wizards regain spells after 2 hours of rest.
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Seems quite clear to me that it lets them prepare spells after 2 hours of rest.
Seems quite clear to me that it lets them prepare spells after 2 hours of rest.
Yep, you only need 2 hours of sleep.
However, you can't prepare any slots you cast less than 8 hours ago (go check the rules).
When you get 8 hours of sleep, you are 'resetting' the day again.
Based on what? I can't find anything in the rules that implies that.
When you get 8 hours of sleep, you are 'resetting' the day again.Based on what? I can't find anything in the rules that implies that.
Based on common sense and the description of the item.
GM : Ok, you have slept for 2 hours, are fully rested, fully fed, and alert. However, if you walk for an hour, you have to make a fortitude save or be exhausted because you have already walked for 8 hours in the last 24. Yes, I know you are fully rested as if you slept 8 hours, but the game system doesn't cover that under the base rules, so I'm ruling you get exhausted if you move for another hour. Yes I know that makes the item worthless other than not eating, but I'm the GM and I don't use my brain to interpret how magic items interact with the base rules.
The basic rules do not take the ring into account because it is an exception to the rules. The rules say you have to have 8 hours of sleep per day or face exhaustion. The ring says you can get the same benefits of 8 hours of sleep. ALL the benefits of it. Not just part of the benefits. Part of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is the ability to continue adventuring, which includes walking overland and doing other activities like working. If you rule any other way, then you make the item worthless and have the GM statement above I posted.
When you get 8 hours of sleep, you are 'resetting' the day again.Based on what? I can't find anything in the rules that implies that.
From the wizard section of the core book:
"A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare."
I may be mistaken. Ill check the magic section, but this may be a change from the previous edition. My bad.
I had a similar case like this and it was decided that the important part is per day. That is per 24 hour period.
Even though you rested and whatnot, the day still has not ended. This is the same with spells or regaining rage.
You can only craft for 8 hours per day. Regardless of how much sleep or rings you have.
Ring of Sustenance
Description: This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
you can only prepare spells once per day, even though the ring allows you to prepare after two hours you cant do it - you've already done that action today.
Similarly, you can't craft beyond 8 hours if you've already used your allotted 8 hours today. It is a per 24 hour restriction, not after you rest.
When you get 8 hours of sleep, you are 'resetting' the day again.Based on what? I can't find anything in the rules that implies that.
By the term "Spells per Day"
The Spells a Spell Caster can cast are per Day, so per 24 hours.To reset the Spells per Day limit for a spellcaster two things have to occure
- 8 hours of rest (2 with the ring)
- 24 hours past by since the last reset
This is very clear if you read the cleric spellcasting description.
Each cleric must choose a time when she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells
also this part could be intressting
Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Cleric.
@Stynnk:
thanks for heading back to the topic :)You're right, 8 hours a day.
But as you only use 4 hours a day while traveling, you have 4 hours left.
From this and the
Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)."
I would guess with a RoS you can use additional 4 hours (to get to the max of 8h/day), which will only count as 2 hours.
=> you will get for your "crafting in the field" 8h/day (4h normal + 4 from spared rest time due to the RoS) from which only 4 hours count as real crafting time - sounds good or?
said lots of stuff
I concur on all points
When you get 8 hours of sleep, you are 'resetting' the day again.Based on what? I can't find anything in the rules that implies that.Based on common sense and the description of the item.
GM : Ok, you have slept for 2 hours, are fully rested, fully fed, and alert. However, if you walk for an hour, you have to make a fortitude save or be exhausted because you have already walked for 8 hours in the last 24. Yes, I know you are fully rested as if you slept 8 hours, but the game system doesn't cover that under the base rules, so I'm ruling you get exhausted if you move for another hour. Yes I know that makes the item worthless other than not eating, but I'm the GM and I don't use my brain to interpret how magic items interact with the base rules.
The basic rules do not take the ring into account because it is an exception to the rules. The rules say you have to have 8 hours of sleep per day or face exhaustion. The ring says you can get the same benefits of 8 hours of sleep. ALL the benefits of it. Not just part of the benefits. Part of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is the ability to continue adventuring, which includes walking overland and doing other activities like working. If you rule any other way, then you make the item worthless and have the GM statement above I posted.
The description of crafting doesn't take into account a lot of things because it doesn't need to. It very clearly states that you can only craft 8 hours a day maximum. Would you allow a lich to craft at 3 times the normal rate because he doesn't need to rest at all? It is possible for a player to become a lich at higher levels.
The ring does not state that it is an exception to the rule with crafting therefore I would not allow for it. That being said, it can certainly help. It just doesn't allow you to surpass the 8 hour maximum limit.
I think there has been some confusion on what I posted, let me clarify.
Ring of SustenanceAura faint conjuration; CL 5th
Slot ring; Price 2,500 gp; Weight —
Description
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Now, what are the benefits of 8 hours of sleep? The rules don't spell all of it out explicitly. So we have to extrapolate on some of it.
1) Your body is fully rested and restored. This means if you start walking again, you don't roll for exhaustion after an hour, even if you spent 8 hours walking starting 13 hours ago.
2) A wizard can prepare spells. Now, it doesn't let him have more slots per day (those are limited by 24 hour period, not by resting). Note that preparation is limited to spells not cast in the last 8 hours. So, to me, that means after sleeping 2 hours with a ring, a wizard could prepare any slots he has not already used. So, if he had 6 slots per day of 1st level, and had cast 3 so far today, 2 hours sleep with his ring let's him prepare those 3 unused slots again. Tomorrow, he can prepare all 6 again (assuming he doesn't cast any within 8 hours of the next preparation). Those are specific benefits of sleeping, per the wizard abilities list.
3) The ring doesn't help divine casters, as they pray for spells at a specific time each day. At least, not as much, they still must be fully rested, but they can do that in 2 hours, not 8. They still can't pray for slots used in the last 8 hours (unless I missed that, I think it applies to both divine and arcane casters).
4) You can go back to work. This follows from point 1. If you are a carpenter, and you work 8 hours, then take off 2 hours, then sleep 2 with a ring of sustenance, you are fully rested and gain all the benefits of sleep. So you can go put in another 8 hours of work at being a carpenter. Or make magic items, or whatever. Note that if you are a spellcaster, this doesn't help you as much, due to that 8 hour spellcasting limitation, but a crafter who has no spells doesn't care about that.
5) You get your hit points back again. This seems to follow from the 2 hours = 8 hours thing, as my understanding is that sleeping 8 hours gives you your hit points back. I could be mistaken on this one, as I am having trouble finding in the PRD where the 8 hours = hp recovery is.
Personally, I rule you can't sleep 2 hours unless you've been active for at least 8, as you can't just sleep 16 hours in a row (the equivalent of sleeping 4 hours with a ring of sustenance) unless you're really really sick or hurt. So basically, I limit the ring to 2 uses a day if you're being fully active. But that's a house rule. Per the RAW, every time you sleep 2 hours you get 8 hours benefit.
The description of crafting doesn't take into account a lot of things because it doesn't need to. It very clearly states that you can only craft 8 hours a day maximum. Would you allow a lich to craft at 3 times the normal rate because he doesn't need to rest at all? It is possible for a player to become a lich at higher levels.
I would allow him to craft at 2.5 times the normal rate, as he'd need some setup time between crafting sessions to maintain his equipment. Guess what, lich's are nasty. Lich's don't require sleep or food or anything else. They are immune to exhaustion. They can walk 24/7, unlike a PC. If you can walk 24/7, you can craft 24/7. There's nothing in the rules that say crafting is somehow different from other physical labor.
Now, if you want to say there is something mystically draining about crafting magical items, then I am more than happy to discuss that. There's nothing in the rules that say there is, but it would be a fine and balancing rule I think. However, pure physical labor and crafting of mundane or MW items, yeah, same amount of labor involved as marching in full plate. And yes, I know I mentioned crafting feats above, because the discussion started about magic items. However, this is the first time a distinction has come up about magic vs non-magic, and there's nothing in the rules about one being harder than the other, just that one requires a feat and the other doesn't.
No, it's not possible to become a lich at higher levels unless the GM allows it, which means it's house rule time. If we're talking house rules, then this discussion is meaningless. There are no rules in the core book for a PC to have a template applied.
The ring does not state that it is an exception to the rule with crafting therefore I would not allow for it. That being said, it can certainly help. It just doesn't allow you to surpass the 8 hour maximum limit.
Obviously, we disagree on this point.
5) You get your hit points back again. This seems to follow from the 2 hours = 8 hours thing, as my understanding is that sleeping 8 hours gives you your hit points back. I could be mistaken on this one, as I am having trouble finding in the PRD where the 8 hours = hp recovery is.
It's actually in the combat chapter under Injury and Death: Healing: Natural Healing... I wish it worked as you described, but you regain your character level in HP back every time you do a normal rest.
We disagree about the crafting points though. That is a once per day limit just like preparing your spells.
If you did not craft up to 8 hours before rest, then you can now craft the remaining time. Just as if you did not prepare all your spells before rest, you can now.
IMO, the crafting rules for Magic Items are intended to apply to mundane crafting as well. All crafting capped at 8 hours.
If there was not a cap, then how could one calculate out Craft times per week if some days work time is variable or even account for double work days? The craft skill describes the checks in per week or per day increments, the only way to divide this time is with an even benchmark, giving further creedence to the 8 hour per day idea.
It is always interesting to me to see how many different ways people interpret rules that seem pretty clear to me. I suppose everyone feels the same way.
The Ring of Sustenance allows you to substitute 2 hours of sleep for 8 hours of sleep and removes your need to eat and drink.
That's all it does. It has no effect on anything that has a "per day" limitation in the rules. It doesn't "reset the day" or anything like that.
There are specific per day limitations in the book, and from what I've seen that means a 24 hour period.
Also wizards have a specific rule that says they can't prepare a slot for a spell they have cast in the past 8 hours, and divine casters have to reacquire their spells at a set time each day.
So in general the ring does not really give divine spellcasters any benefit beyond the reduced sleep and the need to not eat.
Wizards could theoretically prepare spells after two hours of sleep but they have two specific limitations they have to honor. First, they can't reload any slot they've used in the past 8 hours. Second, they can't cast any more than their daily allotment of spells in a 24 hour period. So if your wizard can cast 4 third level spells, that means that even if you managed to cast all four, then 6 hours later you get two hours of sleep, although you could reload those spells, you could not cast them until the next day.
This does require dealing with "days" one of two ways. Either you set a start and end time for the 24 hour clock (say, midnight), or you count backwards 24 hours each time you go to cast a spell to ensure you haven't already cast your limit in the previous 24 hours. It is simpler and easier to use the "new day begins at midnight" approach.
The rules around casting are similarly clear. You can craft 8 hours "per day". If you are adventuring you have to craft twice as long for the same benefit. You can't increase your crafting more than 8 hours and you have to interpret "day" one of the two ways above for crafting as well.
But the rules are pretty clear I think.
Non-magical crafting doesn't happen in hours - it happens in weeks and has an utterly different process than magical crafting.
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
- Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
- Find the DC on Table: Craft Skills.
- Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
- Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work.
If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
The 8 hour limitation is specific to magical crafting and additional rest should have no effect which allows more than 8 hours of magical crafting in a 24 hour period.
If you interpret the rules the way Brassbaboon and several others say, then you end up with illogical things like this.
I walk 8 hours.
I sleep 2 hours and get a full nights rest (I'm also fully fed and energized).
I walk another hour, I make a fort save to avoid becoming exhausted, because I've walked 8 hours in the last 24.
If you wish to interpret the crafting as a hard limit per day, then you must also interpret ALL other things in the game that talk about per day as hard wired as well, including walking and working. Since I find that to be illogical to the point of silliness, I prefer interpreting the rules so that they make sense, not sillyness.
The 8 hour limitation is specific to magical crafting and additional rest should have no effect which allows more than 8 hours of magical crafting in a 24 hour period.
Ok,
So, how does the ring affect normal crafting? You can obviously do more things in 24 hours. You are reducing the amount of rest you need per week by 42 hours. That's a work week. Would you consider that double work for the week if he got in 2 40 hour weeks in one week?As to the magical, I'm taking it that your position is that the limit on magical is due to some limit on how much magic you can channel per day into an item? But if that were the case, wouldn't a higher level caster be able to channel more magic than a lower level caster?
A limit on magic per day also doesn't jive with the way two different casters, same level, can complete an item in different times (depending on their rolls). At the very least, this argument I can see some sense to, but not the 'You be too tired to craft after 8 hours of sleep' argument, that's just silly.
The 8 hour limitation is specific to magical crafting and additional rest should have no effect which allows more than 8 hours of magical crafting in a 24 hour period.Ok,
So, how does the ring affect normal crafting? You can obviously do more things in 24 hours. You are reducing the amount of rest you need per week by 42 hours. That's a work week. Would you consider that double work for the week if he got in 2 40 hour weeks in one week?As to the magical, I'm taking it that your position is that the limit on magical is due to some limit on how much magic you can channel per day into an item? But if that were the case, wouldn't a higher level caster be able to channel more magic than a lower level caster?
A limit on magic per day also doesn't jive with the way two different casters, same level, can complete an item in different times (depending on their rolls). At the very least, this argument I can see some sense to, but not the 'You be too tired to craft after 8 hours of sleep' argument, that's just silly.
We can fluff it however we want, but the RAW doesn't provide for additional crafting or magical crafting with additional viable time available (as opposed to additional actual time as can be accomplished with planar stuff and whatnnot).
With crafting, it's easy enough to say that crafters already use all of a day's available hours to craft. No sunlight at 2am whether or not you're awake. If they aren't using all of a day's available hours, then the ring wouldn't help anyway because they've demonstrated they would rather do something other than crafting with the extra hours.
With magical crafting, let's just say that the material can only absorb magical energy at a certain rate under good conditions and at half that rate under poor ones. That'll fluff both to match the RAW.
Magic items that have a daily usage may reset 24 hours after being used, or at every sunrise, or at midnight or some other time of day--presumably based on the item creator's intent.
With magical crafting, let's just say that the material can only absorb magical energy at a certain rate under good conditions and at half that rate under poor ones. That'll fluff both to match the RAW.
That doesn't match the reality though. If the material could only absorb a certain amount per day, then someone who makes a check at 40 and someone who made a check at 20 would both max out at the same amount done per day. They don't, the 40 does twice the 20.
If you take the other stance, that the limit is higher than the people can enchant per day, and that's why the 20 guy gets half what the 40 does, then you are actually arguing that if they 20 guy crafts twice in a day, he can match the 40 guy, since neither hit the maximum the material can absorb in a day.
Sorry, but that fluff doesn't work either.
If you interpret the rules the way Brassbaboon and several others say, then you end up with illogical things like this.
I walk 8 hours.
I sleep 2 hours and get a full nights rest (I'm also fully fed and energized).
I walk another hour, I make a fort save to avoid becoming exhausted, because I've walked 8 hours in the last 24.
If you wish to interpret the crafting as a hard limit per day, then you must also interpret ALL other things in the game that talk about per day as hard wired as well, including walking and working. Since I find that to be illogical to the point of silliness, I prefer interpreting the rules so that they make sense, not sillyness.
No I don't have to interpret all other things that way. I can, and do, make individual rulings on individual situations.
I was simply stating what the rules say, not what "makes sense." No member of any party of any campaign of mine has yet pushed the boundaries of these limits. Since I typically only make house rules when someone is abusing some aspect of the RAW, or if the RAW is clearly inconsistent or silly, I haven't yet had to make any house rules on crafting.
If someone wanted to craft for 22 hours, sleep for 2 and craft for 22 more, and do this for an extended period, then I'd have to decide what to do about it. The same is true if they decide to try to walk for 8 hours, sleep for 2, then walk for 8 more, etc..
Off the top of my head I would think that even if you can stay awake for 22 hours out of every 24, that doesn't mean you can concentrate on a difficult task for that much time. The limit to crafting doesn't seem to me to be entirely an issue with fatigue, it seems also to factor in all of the things that plague people forced to do the same repetitive task over and over for hours.
Luckily nobody has ever tried to push this in my campaigns so I don't have to make a call. But it is unlikely that I would allow someone with this ring to use it to game the system for personal benefit. There would still be some limits to crafting and/or walking.
I think at this point we're down to 'I think this way is right' vs 'Wrong, it's this way'. Unless someone has something else to contribute from the rules that hasn't been repeated 3 or 4 times, it's down to how you interpret 'benefit of 8 hours of sleep'.
I suggest we all FAQ and hope the Devs finally answer it. Note that 3.5 devs ignored this FAQ for years. They only answered the one about the spells (which I paraphrased above).
With magical crafting, let's just say that the material can only absorb magical energy at a certain rate under good conditions and at half that rate under poor ones. That'll fluff both to match the RAW.That doesn't match the reality though. If the material could only absorb a certain amount per day, then someone who makes a check at 40 and someone who made a check at 20 would both max out at the same amount done per day. They don't, the 40 does twice the 20.
If you take the other stance, that the limit is higher than the people can enchant per day, and that's why the 20 guy gets half what the 40 does, then you are actually arguing that if they 20 guy crafts twice in a day, he can match the 40 guy, since neither hit the maximum the material can absorb in a day.
Sorry, but that fluff doesn't work either.
I think you're confusing regular crafting with magic item creation. During magic item creation, you don't make skill checks to determine how fast you make the items. You do 1000g worth of work per day.
With magical crafting, let's just say that the material can only absorb magical energy at a certain rate under good conditions and at half that rate under poor ones. That'll fluff both to match the RAW.That doesn't match the reality though. If the material could only absorb a certain amount per day, then someone who makes a check at 40 and someone who made a check at 20 would both max out at the same amount done per day. They don't, the 40 does twice the 20.
If you take the other stance, that the limit is higher than the people can enchant per day, and that's why the 20 guy gets half what the 40 does, then you are actually arguing that if they 20 guy crafts twice in a day, he can match the 40 guy, since neither hit the maximum the material can absorb in a day.
Sorry, but that fluff doesn't work either.
You're getting crafting and magic item creation mixed again when they aren't mixed at all in the game, RAW. The crafting info I posted is for ordinary crafting. Magic item creation doesn't work that way. With Magic Items you determine the numbers needed based on the price in Gold and after the hours have been spent make a single spellcraft check against the DC where exceeding it means success and failing by 5 or more creates a cursed item.
If you wish to interpret the crafting as a hard limit per day, then you must also interpret ALL other things in the game that talk about per day as hard wired as well, including walking and working. Since I find that to be illogical to the point of silliness, I prefer interpreting the rules so that they make sense, not sillyness.
No I don't have to interpret all other things that way. I can, and do, make individual rulings on individual situations.
For purposes of arguing what is RAW and what is not, yes you do. If the same wording is used in two places (hours walkable per day, hours craftable per day), then you have to make the same ruling for consistency.
I wasn't talking about what you do for house ruling. You can house rule that crafting requires the blood of a virgin if you want, nothing wrong with that. If we're talking about ruling based on raw though, you do have to make the same ruling for the same wording, which is why I pointed out how silly it would be to make someone roll for fatigue after they just got 8 hours of sleep.
You're getting crafting and magic item creation mixed again when they aren't mixed at all in the game, RAW. The crafting info I posted is for ordinary crafting. Magic item creation doesn't work that way. With Magic Items you determine the numbers needed based on the price in Gold and after the hours have been spent make a single spellcraft check against the DC where exceeding it means success and failing by 5 or more creates a cursed item.
Hmmm,
Ok, I admit I had the two mixed up. I am willing to accept a maximum 'magic per day' that can be put into a magic item without making it explode (although the rules allow you to double up into 4 hours, but that doesn't match as well, but what the hey).I still believe that standard crafting, walking, fighting, etc are all reset by the 2 hours sleep, as anything else is silly.
I think the difference between the crafting and walking situation is this:
Crafting does not say that you need to rest after 8 hours of crafting. It sets a limit of 8 hours in a day for crafting. It doesn't even have to be consecutive hours. Just 8 hours max. In fact it explicitly states that you cannot craft more than 8 hours in a day.
Movement may seem to put a hard limit on time but it really doesn't. Instead, if you push yourself too much then you become fatigued. To remove fatigue, all you have to do is rest for 8 hours. The ring of sustenance states that 2 hours of rest equals 8 hours of rest.
Those are the differences that I see between them.
I think the difference between the crafting and walking situation is this:
Crafting does not say that you need to rest after 8 hours of crafting. It sets a limit of 8 hours in a day for crafting. It doesn't even have to be consecutive hours. Just 8 hours max. In fact it explicitly states that you cannot craft more than 8 hours in a day.
Movement may seem to put a hard limit on time but it really doesn't. Instead, if you push yourself too much then you become fatigued. To remove fatigue, all you have to do is rest for 8 hours. The ring of sustenance states that 2 hours of rest equals 8 hours of rest.
Those are the differences that I see between them.
Except that's not how the movement rules say it works.
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
It doesn't say 'between rests' it says per 24 hours, just like mundane crafting. I don't think anyone would really interpret the rules strictly per raw in this case however, as a strict interpretation goes like this.
A) Walk 8 hours.
B) Sleep 2 hours with ring.
C) Walk 1 hour, make Constitution check DC 10
D) Walk 1 hour, make Constitution check DC 12
E) Continue making checks each hour until you get 8 more or you fall unconscious.
And yet, that's how the strictest interpretation of the RAW works. All the ring would do is get you back on your feet 2 hours after you passed out from unconsciousness. However, if it was less than 24 hours, and you walked another 2, then you'd make another con check at 30 something or however many hours it had been.
I think the difference between the crafting and walking situation is this:
Crafting does not say that you need to rest after 8 hours of crafting. It sets a limit of 8 hours in a day for crafting. It doesn't even have to be consecutive hours. Just 8 hours max. In fact it explicitly states that you cannot craft more than 8 hours in a day.
Movement may seem to put a hard limit on time but it really doesn't. Instead, if you push yourself too much then you become fatigued. To remove fatigue, all you have to do is rest for 8 hours. The ring of sustenance states that 2 hours of rest equals 8 hours of rest.
Those are the differences that I see between them.
Except that's not how the movement rules say it works.
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
It doesn't say 'between rests' it says per 24 hours, just like mundane crafting. I don't think anyone would really interpret the rules strictly per raw in this case however, as a strict interpretation goes like this.
A) Walk 8 hours.
B) Sleep 2 hours with ring.
C) Walk 1 hour, make Constitution check DC 10
D) Walk 1 hour, make Constitution check DC 12
E) Continue making checks each hour until you get 8 more or you fall unconscious.And yet, that's how the strictest interpretation of the RAW works. All the ring would do is get you back on your feet 2 hours after you passed out from unconsciousness. ...
It says that if you take non-lethal damage from the failed Constitution check, then you are fatigued. Resting removes the fatigued condition.
Also, if you are wearing a ring of sustenance, you are changing part of the Forced March which says that resting is part of a normal day of walking for 8 hours. The ring clearly changes how you rest.
Crafting magic items make no mention of resting. It sets a hard limit of 8 hours. It states that you cannot get past that 8 hour limit. Movement gives at least one way to get past the 8 hour limit. Therefore movement should not be treated the same as crafting when it comes to rest.
It says that if you take non-lethal damage from the failed Constitution check, then you are fatigued. Resting removes the fatigued condition.
Which has nothing to do with the facts as I posted them. Walk 8 hours, sleep two, then by strict RAW per your interpretation, walk an hour become fatigued again, despite just having spent 8 hours worth rest (in 2 hours).
Also, if you are wearing a ring of sustenance, you are changing part of the Forced March which says that resting is part of a normal day of walking for 8 hours. The ring clearly changes how you rest.
Except that if it does that for forced march, then it does the same for mundane crafting, since there is nothing in the forced march rules that say you gain your walking of 8 hours after resting for 8.
Crafting magic items make no mention of resting. It sets a hard limit of 8 hours. It states that you cannot get past that 8 hour limit. Movement gives at least one way to get past the 8 hour limit. Therefore movement should not be treated the same as crafting when it comes to rest.
Since I already admitted I had messed up the rules in my head on magic crafting, and agreed with you all that magic crafting is limited by day on a mystic level, I don't understand this last portion having anything to do with what I posted.
I agree that by RAW there is a way to continue to walk past 8 hours, and there isn't for crafting, but MDT is right, if you read any one description basing amount of effort allowed within 1 day's time, you really would need to read them all like that if you were trying to explain somehing via RAW. In this case, if you read crafting as a 1/day no matter what, then you should also read max 8 hours travel a day before con checks kick in for fatigue and damage, no matter if you get a full nights rest or not (2 or 8 hours).
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I was beginning to think I was the only person in the world that looked at what people were posting and followed it to it's logical conclusion.
This all comes back to a combination of two things. The first one being the magic item being woefully underdefined on exactly what it allows. The other being that the core rules are written from the perspective of humans that have to eat/drink/sleep and not having any rules in them anywhere for creatures that don't.
Considering that there are so many creatures in the game that don't eat/breath/sleep (or some combination thereof) such as Outsiders, Undead, Constructs, etc. By the core rules as written, a sentient construct can't work in a foundry more than 8 hours making mundane swords. I think anyone that's been in a modern manufacturing plant understands what constructs actually do and why they are made (IE: They can work 24/7 without sleep).
This has become a thread on how a GM should INTERPRET RAW, since the RAW clearly is inconsistent and seems to strain credulity.
My answer to that is always the same. Interpret it how you like. If that means you interpret crafting different than walking, that's fine. You are not compelled to house rule on walking the exact same way you house rule on crafting.
"OK, you can craft 8 hours per day even if you have a ring of sustenance."
"But, you said we could walk 14 hours per day with the ring!"
"Yep, you can walk 14 hours a day with the ring."
"But... that's inconsistent!"
"Yep. That's inconsistent. But that's how it works."
This has become a thread on how a GM should INTERPRET RAW, since the RAW clearly is inconsistent and seems to strain credulity.
My answer to that is always the same. Interpret it how you like. If that means you interpret crafting different than walking, that's fine. You are not compelled to house rule on walking the exact same way you house rule on crafting.
"OK, you can craft 8 hours per day even if you have a ring of sustenance."
"But, you said we could walk 14 hours per day with the ring!"
"Yep, you can walk 14 hours a day with the ring."
"But... that's inconsistent!"
"Yep. That's inconsistent. But that's how it works."
You can rule like that, but don't be surprised if you make your players unhappy. Consistency in rulings is the sign of a good GM. Inconsistency is the sign of a GM who can't apply rules evenly and fairly. I would (and have) left games where the GM applied rules inconsistently, because you never knew what he was going to rule in any given situation.
I'm fine if you want to rule you can only craft and walk 8 hours in a day, I think you're wrong, but you're at least consistent. You can be cruel to a dog consistently day after day, and he'll still react in a predictable manner (this is pretty much what pitfight training is). However, if you randomly reward and punish him, he'll go insane in no time (And yes, Pavlov did these experiments with dogs, back before there were laws against it).
Any explanation why?^^
I think this has been covered pretty thoroughly.
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.
Generally speaking, 4 hours/day is what you get, regardless of what you do. It's a simplification so you don't have to track time on an hourly basis. The downside is that you can't track hours and claim more. Likewise you don't lose time if you track hours and come up with less.
This has become a thread on how a GM should INTERPRET RAW, since the RAW clearly is inconsistent and seems to strain credulity.
My answer to that is always the same. Interpret it how you like. If that means you interpret crafting different than walking, that's fine. You are not compelled to house rule on walking the exact same way you house rule on crafting.
"OK, you can craft 8 hours per day even if you have a ring of sustenance."
"But, you said we could walk 14 hours per day with the ring!"
"Yep, you can walk 14 hours a day with the ring."
"But... that's inconsistent!"
"Yep. That's inconsistent. But that's how it works."You can rule like that, but don't be surprised if you make your players unhappy. Consistency in rulings is the sign of a good GM. Inconsistency is the sign of a GM who can't apply rules evenly and fairly. I would (and have) left games where the GM applied rules inconsistently, because you never knew what he was going to rule in any given situation.
I'm fine if you want to rule you can only craft and walk 8 hours in a day, I think you're wrong, but you're at least consistent. You can be cruel to a dog consistently day after day, and he'll still react in a predictable manner (this is pretty much what pitfight training is). However, if you randomly reward and punish him, he'll go insane in no time (And yes, Pavlov did these experiments with dogs, back before there were laws against it).
Just can't help myself, this just reminded me too much of the following quote:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm pretty sure I and my players would put this into the realm of "foolish consistency." Never had an issue with this. Crafting requires concentration and focus, walking does not. That's enough of a difference to justify the "inconsistency" right there.
But I truly don't know how I would personally rule on this. This has never come up. Do I care if a player or group of players wants to play with arbitrary rest periods and spend 20 hours out of every 24 walking or crafting?
I dunno. Probably not. I can't think of a pressing reason I'd have a problem with it. Over time I might rule that screwing around with your circadian rhythms might have some mental effect over time, but then again, I might not. I don't see how it's game changing, it's just sort of annoying from a time tracking perspective is all.