Vestigial arms don't give you extra attack but they do free up hands.
Say you've gone for 4 arms total
you use two arms to two hand weild a greatsword and your other two hands are free to make claw attacks.
Does this mean With an example BAB of 11+ and the multiattack feat
2h sword +11/+6/+1
AND
Claw Claw Bite (all secondary) +9/+9/+9
as a full round attack ?
vs before vestigal arms where if you were holding a weapon that hand would not be free to make a claw attack
bump for 0 post from yesterday
The Secondary attacks would be at BAB -5, so +5/+5. Where did the Bite Attack come from? Don't forget that they only add half strength to damage, being secondary attacks
The Secondary attacks would be at BAB -5, so +5/+5. Where did the Bite Attack come from? Don't forget that they only add half strength to damage, being secondary attacks
Feral mutagen probably.
The Secondary attacks would be at BAB -5, so +5/+5. Where did the Bite Attack come from? Don't forget that they only add half strength to damage, being secondary attacks
Ferral mutgaen, and multiattack turns -5 to -2
They are all originally primary attack however, I think there's some debate about if 1x str mod still applies even though the attacks rolls are treated as secondary.
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Vestigial arms don't give you extra attack but they do free up hands.
Say you've gone for 4 arms total
you use two arms to two hand weild a greatsword and your other two hands are free to make claw attacks.Does this mean With an example BAB of 11+ and the multiattack feat
2h sword +11/+6/+1
AND
Claw Claw Bite (all secondary) +9/+9/+9as a full round attack ?
vs before vestigal arms where if you were holding a weapon that hand would not be free to make a claw attack
The vestigial arms don't give extra attacks or actions, much less claws or bites.
A humanoid with 2 vestigial arms, and BAB of +11 can make three attacks with two hands. He can make one additional off-hand attack, whether with spikes or vestigial hand wielding a weapon. Multiattack applies to natural attacks, which he doesn't have.
If your alchemist is of a race that has claw/claw/bite and has two vestigial hands, it looks like he could use the vestigial hands for a two-handed weapon with iterative attacks. However, vestigial arms specifically says that he gets no additional attacks. With two claws wielding weapons, he would have one weapon with iteratives and an off-hand weapon or claw, along with his bite. That is going to serve as the limit for his attacks.
Edit: with feral mutagen granting claw/claw/bite, the result is the same as if of race with claw/claw/bite to start with.
Note: this is based on a grey area of the rules, but is based on the premise that the maximum weapon attacks is determined by number of arms, in this case 2, not 4, since vestigial attack explicitly doesn't grant extra attacks.
My question about those arms is, can they hold a shield? If i remeber, the rules say they cant make extra attacks but what about holding a shield for the AC while using your normal limbs to 2 weapon fight?
Vestigial arms don't give you extra attack but they do free up hands.
Say you've gone for 4 arms total
you use two arms to two hand weild a greatsword and your other two hands are free to make claw attacks.Does this mean With an example BAB of 11+ and the multiattack feat
2h sword +11/+6/+1
AND
Claw Claw Bite (all secondary) +9/+9/+9as a full round attack ?
vs before vestigal arms where if you were holding a weapon that hand would not be free to make a claw attack
The vestigial arms don't give extra attacks or actions, much less claws or bites.
A humanoid with 2 vestigial arms, and BAB of +11 can make three attacks with two hands. He can make one additional off-hand attack, whether with spikes or vestigial hand wielding a weapon. Multiattack applies to natural attacks, which he doesn't have.
If your alchemist is of a race that has claw/claw/bite and has two vestigial hands, it looks like he could use the vestigial hands for a two-handed weapon with iterative attacks. However, vestigial arms specifically says that he gets no additional attacks. With two claws wielding weapons, he would have one weapon with iteratives and an off-hand weapon or claw, along with his bite. That is going to serve as the limit for his attacks.
Note: this is based on a grey area of the rules, but is based on the premise that the maximum weapon attacks is determined by number of arms, in this case 2, not 4, since vestigial attack explicitly doesn't grant extra attacks.
Some of you seem unclear on the alchemist let me just but the source of everything down.
First
Ferral Mutgaen = 3 primary natural attacks Bite Claw Claw these go at FullBAB/FullBAB/FullBAB
you can two weapon fight and mix natural with weapons e.g. 2h sword , natural attacks become secondary
So you Get 2h Sword Iterative attacks (-2 for TWF) FullBAB/FullBAB-5/FullBAB-10 PLUS Bite attack FullBAB-5
You don't get your two claw attacks in this example because they are holding the 2h sword.
Now hold that for a second
Add 2 Vestigal Arms
You now have an extra 2 hand which can hold the 2h sword , BUT you've also got 2 free hands which can make Claw attacks.
Thus in thoery
So you Get 2h Sword Iterative attacks (-2 for TWF) FullBAB/FullBAB-5/FullBAB-10 PLUS Bite attack FullBAB-5/ Claw attack FullBAB-5 /Claw attack FullBAB-5
the arms are not giving you extra attacks they are freeing up your natural claw attacks so they are no longer holding a weapon and can make attacks as normal.
My question about those arms is, can they hold a shield? If i remeber, the rules say they cant make extra attacks but what about holding a shield for the AC while using your normal limbs to 2 weapon fight?
they can hold weapons or shields, they however don't by themselves grant extra attacks. But they can be used to make attacks
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Some of you seem unclear on the alchemist let me just but the source of everything down.
First
Ferral Mutgaen = 3 primary natural attacks Bite Claw Claw these go at FullBAB/FullBAB/FullBAByou can two weapon fight and mix natural with weapons e.g. 2h sword , natural attacks become secondary
So you Get 2h Sword Iterative attacks (-2 for TWF) FullBAB/FullBAB-5/FullBAB-10 PLUS Bite attack FullBAB-5
You don't get your two claw attacks in this example because they are holding the 2h sword.
Now hold that for a second
Add 2 Vestigal Arms
You now have an extra 2 hand which can hold the 2h sword , BUT you've also got 2 free hands which can make Claw attacks.Thus in thoery
So you Get 2h Sword Iterative attacks (-2 for TWF) FullBAB/FullBAB-5/FullBAB-10 PLUS Bite attack FullBAB-5/ Claw attack FullBAB-5 /Claw attack FullBAB-5
the arms are not giving you extra attacks they are freeing up your natural claw attacks so they are no longer holding a weapon and can make attacks as normal.
The only thing I was unclear about was where the claw/claw/bite was coming from, which is immaterial. The vestigial arms grant no additional attacks. While you can use them to make the attacks you would otherwise make with a weapon in your claws, the attack count can't exceed what you would get otherwise. Increasing the attack count would be getting additional attacks, which vestigial arms explicitly says you don't get.
You can be creative within the attack count. You cannot add to the attack count.
Edit: There is an existing conversation on this topic here. Your scenario is merely a specific example of what is being talked about there in general.
The only thing I was unclear about was where the claw/claw/bite was coming from, which is immaterial. The vestigial arms grant no additional attacks. While you can use them to make the attacks you would otherwise make with a weapon in your claws, the attack count can't exceed what you would get otherwise. Increasing the attack count would be getting additional attacks, which vestigial arms explicitly says you don't get.
You can be creative within the attack count. You cannot add to the attack count.
Edit: There is an existing conversation on this topic here. Your scenario is merely a specific example of what is being talked about there in general.
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
you get no extra attack for having the extra arms but all the attacks I mentioned are existing attacks simply being free'd up.
for example if you used 4 arms two wield 2 2h swords you can still two weapon fight with them all be it at -4
You attack routine would look like this
(-4 for TWF) FullBAB/FullBAB/FullBAB-5/FullBAB-5/FullBAB-10/FullBAB-10 Plus FullBAB-5 Bite
how is that differn't to freeing up claws which would be able to attack except for the fact they were holding somthing, but with vestigal arms don't have to ;)
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The only thing I was unclear about was where the claw/claw/bite was coming from, which is immaterial. The vestigial arms grant no additional attacks. While you can use them to make the attacks you would otherwise make with a weapon in your claws, the attack count can't exceed what you would get otherwise. Increasing the attack count would be getting additional attacks, which vestigial arms explicitly says you don't get.
You can be creative within the attack count. You cannot add to the attack count.
Edit: There is an existing conversation on this topic here. Your scenario is merely a specific example of what is being talked about there in general.
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
you get no extra attack for having the extra arms but all the attacks I mentioned are existing attacks simply being free'd up.
What you are calling "free'd up" is adding attacks by using the vestigial arms instead of the claws to hold the weapon. Let's look at the guy with 2 claws, and a bite, no vestigial arms. BAB +11, he can take:
Claw +11 and Claw +11 and Bite +11; all are primary
or
longsword +11/+6/+1 and claw +6 and bite +6; natural attacks are secondary
or, using your shortsword example:
shortsword +7/+2/-3 and shortsword +7 and bite +6; -4 for TFW and secondary bite.
That's 5 attacks. It's based on 3 for iterative, 1 for the 2nd hand, and 1 for the bite.
Now let's add the arms. The max attacks he can take is 5: 3 with a primary weapon, 1 with off hand weapon or claw, 1 with bite. However he wields that greatsword, whether with two vestigial arms, or an arm and a claw, that's the limit. Anything else, what you are calling "free'd up", is adding an attack.
The premise here is that the max attacks is defined by the number of arms, with the vestigial arms counting as zero. If you don't accept that premise, you'll disagree. The rules are kinda silent and have to be read by implication about this. So, we might reasonably disagree about this.
If you disagree with the premise, then what is your understanding for what determines the number of attacks?
If you disagree with the premise, then what is your understanding for what determines the number of attacks
This is where the argument lies
Your saying with no arms you have a set attack routine which grants X number of attacks and no matter what you do you can't exceed that number.
I'm saying your misinterpreting the wording of does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round.
As in having this arm does not grant you a secondary slam attack at your BAB.
by your logic because I can only hold one 2h sword without vestigal arms thus could only make the 3 basic iterative attacks I cannot then get 6 attack with 4 arms by weilding two 2 handed swords and two weapon fighting since my original number of attack without the arms was only 3 because you can't two weapon fight with a single weapon.
Personally I believe the wording exists so that an Alchemist could not take 2 vestigial arms and the ferral mutgaen and expect to get 4 claw attacks for having 2 extra hands that would natural become clawed and provide attacks, giving the Alchemist 5 primary natural attacks.
I strongly believe this is the only purpose for the wording specific to alchemists