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I have been reading the new synthesist archetype in ultimate magic. First off, love it. But it is worded a bit vaguely.
My first issue is it says "eidolon must be at least the sake size as you". Implying it could be bigger? You could be small, and it medium?
Also, you have your gear, but you are inside your eidolon... who's wearing the armor? If its your eidolon, do you need to buy special barding for non humanoid shaped eidolons? What happens to this possibly larger and/or odd shaped gear when the eidolon is un-summoned?
I have been reading the new synthesist archetype in ultimate magic. First off, love it. But it is worded a bit vaguely.
My first issue is it says "eidolon must be at least the sake size as you". Implying it could be bigger? You could be small, and it medium?
Also, you have your gear, but you are inside your eidolon... who's wearing the armor? If its your eidolon, do you need to buy special barding for non humanoid shaped eidolons? What happens to this possibly larger and/or odd shaped gear when the eidolon is un-summoned?
Yes, the eidolon definitely can be bigger than the summoner.
The eidolon cannot wear armor, per the APG. Several other threads have debated what that implies for a synthesist summoner.
If you read the rundown on the Eidolon progression in the basic Summoner profile - you'll notice that they get an in-built Armor progression.
Starts as +2 at second level building up to +16 at 20th. Supplement that with Natural Armor through evolutions and you don't really need to worry about barding, etc.
If you read the rundown on the Eidolon progression in the basic Summoner profile - you'll notice that they get an in-built Armor progression.
Starts as +2 at second level building up to +16 at 20th. Supplement that with Natural Armor through evolutions and you don't really need to worry about barding, etc.
Read the entry. That can be either normal armor OR natural. So you can have it, the bonus from the evolutions, AND (perhaps) armor.
I did read the entry - it also says "An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner's connection to the eidolon."
Hell the entry in UM even states this explicitly "The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gainst the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores"
Combine the two and voila - no barding for eidolons.
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can
use all of his own abilities and gear."
Hell, if you are going to combine things, combine all the things related..
Summoners are able to wear armor. Hence, a summoner using his own gear should still be capable of wearing armor..
Summoners are able to wear armor. Hence, a summoner using his own gear should still be capable of wearing armor..
Yes - the summoner is able to wear armor, but the eidolon is not. While fused the Synthesist uses his eidolon's armor, and therefore doesn't gain benefit from his own.
He is still using his own gear and the eilodon does not replace the summoners armor. He gains.
If you have a banana and gain an apple you don't only have an apple now. You have a banana and an apple.
However if the armor bonus of the eidolon is called out by the summoner to be armor, then there could be a case of stacking. So a smart summoner would call it out as being a natural armor bonus, therefor ignoring the stacking clause of equipment.
Given that there is no glossary definition of the term 'gain' I would revert that you are twisting the wording in an attempt to circumvent the intended mechanics.
It is clear that the design intent is to use the eidolon's armor and not the summoners.
I'm of the opinion that yes, you can combine them.
Summoners wear armor (Almost exclusively Light Armor) which grants an armor bonus.
Eidolons have a bonus to natural armor or armor. (Choose natural armor)
Eidolons can't wear armor. (but the Summoner can still wear his without interfering with the connection or whatnot)
Sythesists gain the benefits of an Eidolon. A synthesist is not actually an Eidolon. They can still wear armor. Thus, a Synthesist with an armor bonus, can take on the Eidolon's natural armor bonus.
Huzzah, you have both. :B
Except there is absolutely no twisting. I would revert the opposite being true, you are twisting the words.
It clearly states "neither the synthesist nor his
eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one
creature"
The eidolon is wearing the armor, because the eidolon is you and you are the eidolon.
With a similarly selective quote from UM 'the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his eidolon'
Hard to benefit from your summoner's armor when you are inside the eidolon and they don't need to hit you to hit it.
Hard for a witch to hit me with finger of death then as she has to hit the eidolon first then.
Hard for a witch to hit me with finger of death then as she has to hit the eidolon first then.
Are you sure that the finger of death is the best example of the point you are attempting to make? - it just does hit point damage, which would be soaked up by the eidolon?
However your question there goes to show that you do understand what I'm talking about even if I am referring to a 3.5 version of a spell that isn't even on the witch's spell list.
If you say i can't use my armor because i'm "inside" the eidolon, then the enemies cannot use anything that directly effects my character that needs to touch me until the eidolon is dismissed.
Without any specific examples to refute I can only imagine what effects you are referring to :P
Without any specific examples to refute I can only imagine what effects you are referring to :P
Well then Touch of Idiocy. Your spellcaster cannot cast it on my summoner while I'm in the eidolon, because I'm inside the eidolon.
Making me sickened or anything like that while i'm in the in the eilodon via things like sickening critical? I'm in the Eilodon. Obviously cannot effect me.
Incorrect - still works exactly the same. You stated yourself the eidolon and summoner can't be targeted separately :P but I jest
Physically you are 'inside' the bounds of the eidolon, however you maintain your own senses and mental faculties. When hit by a touch attack it targets the fused creature - which uses your saves and mental faculties.
Ah, but you've stated that I'm inside the eidolon and my armor doesn't matter.
If my armor is unequatable while being the eilodon under the guise of I'm inside the eilodon, not fused with said eidolon, then you are specifically targeting the eidolon over the fused creature in order to gain a larger benefit.
Essentially you are attempting to sunder, while not actually sundering.
Note that it says it appears around the summoner, not around his gear.
You would have eidolons with flaming torches.. INSIDE themselves. Yep, 1d6 points of fire damage until the eidolon/sythisist reaches inside of himself.. dealing more damage to pull the flaming torch from the hand of the summoner and hold it itself..
Ah, but you've stated that I'm inside the eidolon and my armor doesn't matter.
If my armor is unequatable while being the eilodon under the guise of I'm inside the eilodon, not fused with said eidolon, then you are specifically targeting the eidolon over the fused creature in order to gain a larger benefit.
Never said you weren't fused with the eidolon, just that the manifestation of the eidolon appears around the summoner. Hence the reason the summoner can't be larger than the eidolon he fuses with.
Again though its does not say that it appears around the summoner's gear only the summoner. And for reasons previously stated.
Again though its does not say that it appears around the summoner's gear only the summoner. And for reasons previously stated.
Signing off stating that while it's been fun, I disagree with your interpretation.
As we do not game together, feel free to run it any which way you like with your DM houseruling it.
But then.. Can a quadrepedic synth summoner.. manipulate objects like he normally could? wouldn't that mean he has like the arms evolution..
What if the base summoner had wings.. Or other things like this that the eidolon doesn't..?
*Head splodes*
Synthesist maintains all abilities when fused...that includes spellcasting... so that means a quadruped without arms eidolon can have a summoner inside it making hand-wavy gestures. That would look a bit odd.
But now if its a huge quadruped would it cause an AoO if you assume the summoner is in the middle somewhere... I would say it would because the fused summoner eidolon is not paying attention. But it still hurts my brain.
Also how can a summoners armor protect a huge quadruped eidolon around it? Magical transformation into huge barding?
at the same time, what about what I said earlier.. were the the summoner, not the eidolon, is holding a flaming torch or spike armor, or what about drawing weapons the summoner has on his person that would be literally inside the eidolon at that point.
But also, lets say a monster swings a sword at the huge quadrupedal summoner/eidolon and does over the damage of the eidolons temp hp. How can that monster also do damage to the summoner if the summoner isn't in the square that's being attacked?
And what if he is in that spot? Now is monster is hitting the summoner, who has armor, but the attack was also blocked by the eidolon.. So would that mean now the monster has to swing to hit against the summoner or did the attack stop because it hit the eidolon, not the summoner. If the monster is able to continue to strike the summoner, shouldn't the monster receive penalties because his attack was first stopped by the eidolon?
What if there was a spear launching trap that fired a spear into the eidolon/summoner.. Would it have to roll twice to hit? Once for the eidolon and again for the summoner?
Personally, what I see is a bunch of GMs wanting to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to the synthist. They want to say the armor doesn't matter, because they say the eidolon is on the outside of the the summoner so all the gear of the summoner is on the inside of the eidolon.. including armor. But then they will also go on how you should still be hit by attacks that hit the eidolon, without rolling a second time while applying negatives to actually see if the attack did in fact hit the summoner who is apparently inside the eidolon.
Yup. Coz its maaagic.
Yep on what?
RE: Armor there's a quote that has not been mentioned.
... the two are now one creature.
Thus, for the synthesist to wear armor, the eidolon counts as "wearing" armor as it is the same creature as the synthesist (even if the armor is on the synthesist's original body, inside the eidolon shell) - a clear rule violation. Not to mention the balance issues that come with eidolons (who already have massive AC) getting additional AC from wearing armor. There are balance reasons why Eidolons were not allowed to wear armor originally, and those reasons still exist (those being that the Eidolon is already an AC tank without it, and any more AC would be too OP). Even if you don't agree that RAW disallows it, reasonable GMs will disallow it for balance reasons.
Ugh, there's a lot of fluffy language that needs to be translated into its crunchy literal meaning. We need an errata. D:<
it really doesn't need translating.
aak yourself this are the two following scenarios likely intended.
synthesizes with 40+ ac around lvl 8 or 9
or
mid 30s ac with little monetary or feat investment.
my guess is no neither was intended.
previous eidolon stuff made it 100% clear eidolons and. armor don't exist. about the only fuzzy area is shields and the class giving shield bonuses suggests to me they probably are armor also.
Compare it to an animal companion.
From the base..
Eidolon has +16 armor
Companion has +12 armor.
So Eidolon is up a head there..
All Eidolon base forms have +2 ac
Most animal companions have +2 ac.. However a few stand out.. Like Ankylosaurus for example who starts a +9 ac then gains another +2 ac.
There are quite a few others in there that have over +2 ac, especially after they hit their growth period.
Animal companions have 4 ability score increases, Eidolon only has 3.
Animal companions gain 8 feats. While a normal Eidolon gained feats.. The synthesis summoner doesn't gain those additional feats.
If we put all those feats towards armor prof for the first 3 and then the rest for natural armor..
You now have +10 natural armor and +9 (up to +5) from wearing barding.
This grants the animal companion a powerhouse total of up to +24 ac over the synthesis summoner who at most can get a +8 natural armor via evolutions.
If we take 16+8+2=26 ac. The animal compion.. Wolf we'll say, as that is the most common for me to take at least. 12+4+24=40 ac.
26 vs 40 Ac. Now a normal eidolon could get up to 40 normally as well by taking all his feats in imp natural armor with out wearing armor.
Edit: Actually I forgot the wolf went large, so it would be 26 vs 39 armor bonuses.
it really doesn't need translating.
aak yourself this are the two following scenarios likely intended.
synthesizes with 40+ ac around lvl 8 or 9
or
mid 30s ac with little monetary or feat investment.
my guess is no neither was intended.
previous eidolon stuff made it 100% clear eidolons and. armor don't exist. about the only fuzzy area is shields and the class giving shield bonuses suggests to me they probably are armor also.
that's because previous Eidolon stuff was pretty much balance vs the animal companion. by level 20, spending everything you have into AC, both would reach 40.
And now UM also throws in a lovely little spell.. Control Summoned Creature..
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Hi
Without getting into a flame war - clearly the Eidolon and Summoner are distinctly seperate in some ways. Eg Eidolons aren't (normally) spell casters, so Synthesists can't cast spells whilst 'inside' their Eidolon? Hardly.
Also - if you & Eidolon are one being, you don't use your HP, just the Eidolon's? UM clearly states that you use YOUR HP plus Eidolon's HP as 'Temp'.
I believe that the real question is about stacking various types of armour bonuses.
1) Eidolon (Nat Armour)plus Summoner (Light Armour) stacking? Yes
2) Eidolon (Nat Armour) plus Summoner (Nat Armour from Dragon Disciple) stacking? No
I hope that we can get an 'official' ruling soon, since I've just started a Synthesist character in the PS campaign.
Thanks
Paul H
There should also be errata as to size. To wit, could a halfling synthesist use Low Blow and Underfoot racial traits as a small creature, even though he's inside a medium eidolon?
Inquiring cheese-monkeys want to know.
Does the feat/trait require the creature making the attack to be small? If so, no you could not, the eidolon "body" doesn't fulfill the prereq of the feat. This would be covered in the "fused" ability as the eidolon and synth are considered to be the same. If the wording was a matter of the eidolon/halfling simply being smaller than the target it would work as long as the target was large or bigger.
This would be covered in the "fused" ability as the eidolon and synth are considered to be the same.I agree that's how it should be, but nowhere in the main rules for the Summoner nor in the Synthesist does it specifically say that a fused creature takes on the size of the larger of the two. A simple rule that says
"When fused, the summoner/eidolon creature counts as the size of either the summoner or the eidolon, whichever is larger when separate."
would take care of any potential problem.
Am I imaging wording referring to the concepts (no book to look at right now) ?
1: That the eidolon "body" is being controlled by the sythesist while fused.2: That the eidolon "body" is what is being used to perform physical actions.
I'm not quite sure what else can be said as it largely depends on the feat wording (assuming I'm not incorrect with my memory of the above, I could be). If a physical action that depends on the size of the creature making the attack is the quantifier, and the summoner is "commanding" a body (from the inside) that is too large to qualify because you choose to grow larger via evolution, no bonus given. The summoner and eidolon become one, is the whole basis for the archetype and all the wording points to that. I want to say there is even a stating specifically that the summoner and eidolon are considered one creature (but again no book).