Flipping through the spell section of Ultimate Magic, I notice the spell Blood Transcription; specifically, i notice that it is a wizard only spell. Then I remember seeing another wizard only spell in the Players Handbook: Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (or just Mnemonic Enhancer, as the kid's like to call it these days).
Why don't sorcerers get any love in the spell department? Why no unique options for them, spell wise? It is kind of discouraging to see wizards getting goodies, while the poor sorcerer is left with the scraps. Like always.
The only wizard-only spells are ones that mess around with a wizard's spell preparation, as far as I recall.
The only wizard-only spells are ones that mess around with a wizard's spell preparation, as far as I recall.
And, by logical extension, any spell that doesn't mess around with spell preparation should be sorcerer-only.
Incidentally, this would also solve the "wizards are overpowered!" issue.
Whaaat?
Incidentally, this would also solve the "wizards are overpowered!" issue.
Whaaat?
Bloody hell, not again. :-)
There used to be sorcerer only spells, but they played on the draconic bloodline aspect before there was more than one bloodline.
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Flipping through the spell section of Ultimate Magic, I notice the spell Blood Transcription; specifically, i notice that it is a wizard only spell. Then I remember seeing another wizard only spell in the Players Handbook: Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (or just Mnemonic Enhancer, as the kid's like to call it these days).
Kids love to call it by it's actual name, but unfortunately, those are copyrighted.
Why don't sorcerers get any love in the spell department? Why no unique options for them, spell wise? It is kind of discouraging to see wizards getting goodies, while the poor sorcerer is left with the scraps. Like always.
Because Sorcerers gain their spell on their blood, and raw magical talent. Wizards spend years studying magic...very simple.
Because Sorcerers gain their spell on their blood, and raw magical talent. Wizards spend years studying magic...very simple.
Forgive me, but I'm kind of tired of that trite, uninspired line of reasoning; inherited magical ability seems to translate into "sorcerers are stupid and know nothing about magic."
Because Sorcerers gain their spell on their blood, and raw magical talent. Wizards spend years studying magic...very simple.
Forgive me, but I'm kind of tired of that trite, uninspired line of reasoning; inherited magical ability seems to translate into "sorcerers are stupid and know nothing about magic."
How about:
wizadry is science
Sorcery is art
Bloody hell, not again. :-)There used to be sorcerer only spells, but they played on the draconic bloodline aspect before there was more than one bloodline.
Sorry, just being silly. :)
Actually, the way I see it there aren't any wizard only spells. There are a few spells that are useless to a spontaneous caster and would just sit there wasting a spell slot. Those few spells get a nice little warning.
I guess you could come up with a few spells that don't make sense if you're preparing spells... but honestly, I don't think there should be any (or as little as possible) difference. Sorcerers and wizards share spells for a reason and I would, personally, hate to see them get separate lists. The current base classes are pushing the envelope as it is. :)
Because Sorcerers gain their spell on their blood, and raw magical talent. Wizards spend years studying magic...very simple.
Forgive me, but I'm kind of tired of that trite, uninspired line of reasoning; inherited magical ability seems to translate into "sorcerers are stupid and know nothing about magic."
That is how they are presented. One way to look at them is that they are that group of people that aren't academic but they pick things up very easily without the need to understand it. Though nothing keeps you from making a Sorcerer that is quite knowledgeable about how magic works.
I see quite a few of these folks in the military. They are by no means stupid, but they don't know the whys and hows and they aren't good trainers. They are hard workers that don't screw up though.
Even in RPGs most academies of sorcery (dedicated to sorcerers, not magic in general) don't even teach spells they mostly teach how to tap into their potential nothing really concrete (Palin's School of Sorcery in Dragonlance for example).
There was a flavor line in the 3.5 Sorcerer that said they could potentially figure out spells not on their spell lists. My DM at the time ruled that it was how it worked and Sorcerers could choose from all spell lists they where still treated as arcane though.
At the same time I would expect sorcerer's to do things precisely because they are not trained and schooled in what is and is not possible. I would like to see some more endurance on them (currently they are at best a single spell per spell level ahead -- on the even levels at that -- for a long time they are behind at the odd levels).
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Because Sorcerers gain their spell on their blood, and raw magical talent. Wizards spend years studying magic...very simple.
Right. And that's why sorcerers should get access to higher spell levels BEFORE wizards...to them, using magic is natural. The wizard, on the other hand, is having to force it...he's a man with no natural talent for magic trying to wield it.
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Because Sorcerers gain their spell on their blood, and raw magical talent. Wizards spend years studying magic...very simple.Right. And that's why sorcerers should get access to higher spell levels BEFORE wizards...to them, using magic is natural. The wizard, on the other hand, is having to force it...he's a man with no natural talent for magic trying to wield it.
yeah, because magic use is natural to them..they get to use it more, not sooner. Wizards on the other hand can muster less magical power, but know a lot more magic and can use it sooner then sorcerers...simple balance.
How about:wizadry is science
Sorcery is art
True enough - but by that logic, sorcerers should have a lot more unique spells than wizards. Each sorcerer's magic is his or her own, a blending of their own heritage and experience.
If anything, sorcerers should have magics wizards struggle to replicate. Wizards are the ones who use formulas with predetermined effect. One plus one is two. With sorcerers, one plus one can equal a lot of different results, collors, fonts, and at least one small fish.
I would love to have some sorcerer only spells. But I would also like to find a way to add more spells to a bloodline's list to fit it's "theme". An example would be add spells like "Holy smite", "Aid", "Delay poison", "Holy aura" to the celestial bloodline or more nature type spells to "Fey" or "Verdant" bloodlines. Also I could had this idea to the Oracle particularly the elemtal themed ones.
How about:wizadry is science
Sorcery is art
True enough - but by that logic, sorcerers should have a lot more unique spells than wizards. Each sorcerer's magic is his or her own, a blending of their own heritage and experience.
If anything, sorcerers should have magics wizards struggle to replicate. Wizards are the ones who use formulas with predetermined effect. One plus one is two. With sorcerers, one plus one can equal a lot of different results, collors, fonts, and at least one small fish.
I agree to a point, But it's a game. There has to be a mechanical balance somewhere. Otherwise every metagamer would be a sorcerer and just make up spells as he/she went along.
"I use my cantrip, "Summon giant demon tentacle monster" to attack the BBEG.
How about:wizadry is science
Sorcery is art
True enough - but by that logic, sorcerers should have a lot more unique spells than wizards. Each sorcerer's magic is his or her own, a blending of their own heritage and experience.
If anything, sorcerers should have magics wizards struggle to replicate. Wizards are the ones who use formulas with predetermined effect. One plus one is two. With sorcerers, one plus one can equal a lot of different results, collors, fonts, and at least one small fish.
I agree to a point, But it's a game. There has to be a mechanical balance somewhere. Otherwise every metagamer would be a sorcerer and just make up spells as he/she went along.
"I use my cantrip, "Summon giant demon tentacle monster" to attack the BBEG.
....So you'd be playing GURPS then:)
....So you'd be playing GURPS then:)
AKA Making S**t up as you go along. Correct.
I agree to a point, But it's a game. There has to be a mechanical balance somewhere. Otherwise every metagamer would be a sorcerer and just make up spells as he/she went along.
"I use my cantrip, "Summon giant demon tentacle monster" to attack the BBEG.
Obviously. As a cantrip the most you can hope are some impressive visual effects of a giant demon tentacle monster flicking a gob of saliva onto the BBEG... which mechanically happens to be just identical to an acid splash spell :) . Hey, that's what you get for a cantrip.
My point is that fluffwise, there's every justification for sorcerers having unique spells. However, that would most likely mean researching spells or using homebrews, which certainly IS a challenge for the GM to administer and rate. Special sorcerer spells are trickier, since sorcerers can have their power come from many different places - perhaps they could have spells that enhance or modify their bloodline abilities, and then have different bloodline-related spells that only sorcerers with a certain source can have.
Right. And that's why sorcerers should get access to higher spell levels BEFORE wizards...to them, using magic is natural. The wizard, on the other hand, is having to force it...he's a man with no natural talent for magic trying to wield it.
Except the wizard, because of his intense study, gets "How to" booklets and instruction sheets for his magic, but the sorcerer just gets a big ole pile of parts that he has to figure out how to put together on his own. Looking at it that way, the wizard getting spells before the sorcerer makes sense.
You could do something like this:
School transmutation; Level sorcerer 3
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (a gemstone worth 75 gp)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 turn
You plunge your soul into the well of arcane that bridges infinity or some kind of mystical nonsense like that. Choose one sorcerer/wizard spell of 2nd level or lower. You may treat that spell as if it were on your list of spells known until the end of your turn.
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Flipping through the spell section of Ultimate Magic, I notice the spell Blood Transcription; specifically, i notice that it is a wizard only spell. Then I remember seeing another wizard only spell in the Players Handbook: Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (or just Mnemonic Enhancer, as the kid's like to call it these days).Why don't sorcerers get any love in the spell department? Why no unique options for them, spell wise? It is kind of discouraging to see wizards getting goodies, while the poor sorcerer is left with the scraps. Like always.
Actually there ARE bloodline spells that wizards don't get to cast. Entangle for instance, the bloodline spell of Fey sorcerers is not on the wizard list.
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... Special sorcerer spells are trickier, since sorcerers can have their power come from many different places - perhaps they could have spells that enhance or modify their bloodline abilities, and then have different bloodline-related spells that only sorcerers with a certain source can have.
That's an interesting idea - some sort of 'Boost Bloodline' spell (or spell chain - maybe one for each bloodline power level) which increases the numerical 'whatevers' of bloodline powers... a spell which made all those rays and stuff actually worth chucking at things past level one, perhaps..?
Wizards can't even cry foul, since they can get Bloodline powers too now, if they have enough Charisma for the Feats... oh... wait... okay, forget I said anything... ;)
... Special sorcerer spells are trickier, since sorcerers can have their power come from many different places - perhaps they could have spells that enhance or modify their bloodline abilities, and then have different bloodline-related spells that only sorcerers with a certain source can have.That's an interesting idea - some sort of 'Boost Bloodline' spell (or spell chain - maybe one for each bloodline power level) which increases the numerical 'whatevers' of bloodline powers... a spell which made all those rays and stuff actually worth chucking at things past level one, perhaps..?
Wizards can't even cry foul, since they can get Bloodline powers too now, if they have enough Charisma for the Feats... oh... wait... okay, forget I said anything... ;)
Lol, nice.
I like that. I think spells should be designed for the sorcerer based off their bloodlines, as well as some that take advantage of the spontaneous casting. Or even a spell that let's them temporarily replace a spell known with another spell. Things like that.
Instead of taking a balanced class and making potentially destructive changes just add some unique flavor to your sorcerer with spell descriptions. I remember DMing a Ice themed sorceress(was a wizard their wasn't a sorcerer class at that point) in 2nd edition D&D and just added the theme to most of her spells changing fireball to a freezing burst, magic missile to flying icicles, hold person was a covering of ice etc. My characters thought I had made a whole specialized spell list for her. It turned out to be a really good game and my players where gob smacked when I told them.
Nowadays this is pretty much standard stuff with rules already in place for it. The point I am trying to illustrate is that a sorcerer will get more millage out of changing some of the fluff text to their standard spells and making use of the current bloodline abilities and the spell lists that go with them rather then making new spells and untested tweaks to rules.
Instead of taking a balanced class and making potentially destructive changes...
First, I don't believe the sorcerer is a balanced class. At all.
Second, providing the sorcerer with some unique option wouldn't break the class. Every other class gets that to a certain degree; I notice wizards and druids have unique spells attached to their lists, and I don't see how the sorcerer getting that as well would break the class.
And third, fluff change is all well and good; my spell casters frequently have individual descriptions of their magic. I'm not talking about fluff, however. The sorcerer needs its own unique mechanics; I'm not saying overhaul the entire class, or even most of it. Just design some sorcerer only spells. Wizards get them. Druids get them. Clerics get them. The sorcerer should get them too.
I don't have Ultimate Magic yet, but would having sorcerers use Word of Power instead of giving them spells known accomplish what you are looking for? They would have only unique spells. I don't know how feasible this would be. If it's not a good idea, then I apologize for sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
I don't have Ultimate Magic yet, but would having sorcerers use Word of Power instead of giving them spells known accomplish what you are looking for? They would have only unique spells. I don't know how feasible this would be. If it's not a good idea, then I apologize for sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
Regardless of it being a good idea or not your nose belongs here as much as everyone else should have their nose here.
I'm not sure how well that would work -- in theory it sounds ok, but I'm not a huge fan of the words of power system currently... of course that might change too given time.
How do you figure they don't get unique spells any time a wizards list is expanded so is the sorcerers. Their bloodline spell lists dip into other classes. They are granted unique abilities specific to their theme. So how are they not seeing the love by comparison to Wizards, Druids or Clerics.
The Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that are joined at the hip when it comes to spell lists so comparing them to druids or clerics really doesn't get you anywhere. The Wizard has 1 or 2 spells that are unique because they deal with spell memorization a feature that is not even a part of the sorcerer spell casting dynamic. I would say give them something similar but how do you do that and not completely break the main drawback for the class. That is the main rub and why it is unlikely for you to see a spell unique to sorcerers that would do something like that from Paizo/Pathfinder.
I don't have Ultimate Magic yet, but would having sorcerers use Word of Power instead of giving them spells known accomplish what you are looking for? They would have only unique spells. I don't know how feasible this would be. If it's not a good idea, then I apologize for sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.Regardless of it being a good idea or not your nose belongs here as much as everyone else should have their nose here.
I'm not sure how well that would work -- in theory it sounds ok, but I'm not a huge fan of the words of power system currently... of course that might change too given time.
I had hopes for the Words of Power system, but as of now, I wouldn't use it exclusively; taking the experimental caster feat a few times would be a better alternative, especially for the sorcerer.
How do you figure they don't get unique spells any time a wizards list is expanded so is the sorcerers. Their bloodline spell lists dip into other classes. They are granted unique abilities specific to their theme. So how are they not seeing the love by comparison to Wizards, Druids or Clerics.
The Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that are joined at the hip when it comes to spell lists so comparing them to druids or clerics really doesn't get you anywhere. The Wizard has 1 or 2 spells that are unique because they deal with spell memorization a feature that is not even a part of the sorcerer spell casting dynamic. I would say give them something similar but how do you do that and not completely break the main drawback for the class.
As to the first, wizards get those spell too, hence they aren't sorcerer unique. As to the second, bloodline spells that draw off of other lists are neat, but still don't fit the qualification of unique, sorcerer only spells because other casters on other spell lists can cast those spells too.
As to the third, it would be a balancing act, but could be done if the dev's really put in the effort. The wizards main limitation is he has to memorize his spells; his unique spells draw on that. It wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination for a sorcerer to have something similar.
For instance, a spell that allows a sorcerer to temporarily replace one spell known for another wouldn't be broken; it expends resources (spell slots), would probably last 1 minute/level, and wouldn't break the precious spells known drawback that the dev's love so much. To add another limitation, make the material component expensive (similar to stone skin), that way it isn't cast willy-nilly.
I'd say it is comparable to Mnemonic Enhancer. The Enhancer circumvents a wizards main drawback (few spell slots and carefully selected spell memorization); the sorcerer spell I thought up does something similar, circumventing a sorcerers main draw back (pathetically small list of spells known). The enhancer offers more fire power in exchange of spell slots, the sorcerer version offers limited versatility in exchange for spell slots.
How do you figure they don't get unique spells any time a wizards list is expanded so is the sorcerers. Their bloodline spell lists dip into other classes. They are granted unique abilities specific to their theme. So how are they not seeing the love by comparison to Wizards, Druids or Clerics.
The Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that are joined at the hip when it comes to spell lists so comparing them to druids or clerics really doesn't get you anywhere. The Wizard has 1 or 2 spells that are unique because they deal with spell memorization a feature that is not even a part of the sorcerer spell casting dynamic. I would say give them something similar but how do you do that and not completely break the main drawback for the class. That is the main rub and why it is unlikely for you to see a spell unique to sorcerers that would do something like that from Paizo/Pathfinder.
Simple:
Mnemonic Enhancer (wizard only)
Blood Transcription (wizard only)
There are no spells that are (sorcerer only). Spells from other classes' spell lists don't count as they are (obviously) not sorcerer only.
In fact each time another spell is added to the wizard/sorcerer list the wizard actually becomes just a little bit more powerful compared to the sorcerer than he was before.
This is because a wizard can learn, prep and use every spell on the wizard/sorcerer list -- in one character. A sorcerer might choose to have the spell -- but the wizard can have them all.
Combined with things like the item arcane bond, magecraft amulet preferred spell or greater spell specialization we quickly come to the place where the wizard can effectively have the spells he needs ready for spontaneous casting and have everything he might want instead prepared for the day.
It ends up in the same place the sorcerer was in 3.5 basically.
Where at the core level sorcerer and wizard come out fairly even, every new resource that is added in the form of metamagic feats, spells, or discoveries is one bit more versatility the wizard has over the sorcerer -- especially since the sorcerer is locked in to his fewer bonuses with no way to expand them with the new material (unlike wizards) -- where the wizard can grab any metamagic feat available with his bonus slots the majority of the sorcerer's bloodline feats are still stuck completely in core.
It has become a design flaw in the sorcerer/wizard power divide.
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Forgive me, but I'm kind of tired of that trite, uninspired line of reasoning; inherited magical ability seems to translate into "sorcerers are stupid and know nothing about magic."
The arcane bloodline kind of covers this does it not? You could also ask your GM if it is ok to create some new spells that only your sorcerer knows. You do not have to rely on Paizo to do the job for you. I have created new spells for my wizard in our current campaign and the GM has been fine with it.
For instance, a spell that allows a sorcerer to temporarily replace one spell known for another wouldn't be broken; it expends resources (spell slots), would probably last 1 minute/level, and wouldn't break the precious spells known drawback that the dev's love so much. To add another limitation, make the material component expensive (similar to stone skin), that way it isn't cast willy-nilly.I'd say it is comparable to Mnemonic Enhancer. The Enhancer circumvents a wizards main drawback (few spell slots and carefully selected spell memorization); the sorcerer spell I thought up does something similar, circumventing a sorcerers main draw back (pathetically small list of...
They already have a spell that pretty much does that its called limited wish. If you want more spells for your sorcerer play a human and use their alternate favored class ability.
I have played plenty of sorcerers and you can't convince me that they are under powered. the biggest thing is being very picky with what spells you select and grab heighten spell when you get the chance.This is because a wizard can learn, prep and use every spell on the wizard/sorcerer list -- in one character. A sorcerer might choose to have the spell -- but the wizard can have them all.
That isn't really true about a wizard actually being able to use every spell in every splat book. It costs gold for a caster to gain extra spells beyond the ones they get each level unless the DM is giving them away like candy. so that argument doesn't really hold. A sorcerer can select from those self same spells. complaining about the differences in the basic nature of caster types macro vs micro access seems redundant.
I can't tell you the number of times I would have loved to have memorized one spell over another as a wizard leaving me with a handful of spells left at the end of the day that really didn't add that much to our success and weren't cast. The sorcerer may have a spell on his list that he doesn't use that day but it doesn't lock out that spell slot for him.
On the other hand I have had times as a Sorcerer where I was thinking that I really would love to have X spell for a particular problem I faced.
In both instances I have had moments of brilliance and was able to pull something out of my (well you know where). Other times I have come up short. It makes for good role playing in both cases.
They already have a spell that pretty much does that its called limited wish. If you want more spells for your sorcerer play a human and use their alternate favored class ability.
I have played plenty of sorcerers and you can't convince me that they are under powered. the biggest thing is being very picky with what spells you select and grab heighten spell when you get the chance.
As I recall, limited wish is also available to wizards, and thus has no bearing on this discussion.
I never said that sorcerers need more spells; that subject is for another thread. What I was doing was responding to your statement "how do you do that and not completely break the main drawback for the class." To that end, I showed an example for a spell that wouldn't break the sorcerer, while at the same time catering to the sorcerer's niche. It is possible to make sorcerer unique spells and not break the class.I never said sorcerer's were underpowered*, and I have absolutely no interest in trying to convince you otherwise. What I am interested in is the subject of this thread, which is not about power or lack of power.
*What I did say was that sorcerer's are broken. Something completely different.
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Working off of Umbral Reaver's idea...
Spell Adaptation I
School transmutation; Level sorcerer 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 minutes
You plunge your soul into the well of arcane that bridges infinity or some kind of mystical nonsense like that. Choose one sorcerer/wizard cantrip. You may treat that spell as if it were on your list of spells for the next 10 minutes.
Spell Adaptation II
School transmutation; Level sorcerer 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 minutes
You plunge your soul into the well of arcane that bridges infinity or some kind of mystical nonsense like that. Choose one sorcerer/wizard spell of 1st level or lower. You may treat that spell as if it were on your list of spells known for the next 10 minutes.
etc, etc, all the way up to
Spell Adaptation IX
School transmutation; Level sorcerer 9
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 minutes
You plunge your soul into the well of arcane that bridges infinity or some kind of mystical nonsense like that. Choose one sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower. You may treat that spell as if it were on your list of spells known for the next 10 minutes.
Staving off the inevitiable waves of "that's overpowered!"...you are using two spells to accomplish the effects of one spell. What's more, one of the spells used is of a higher level than the spell of the desired effect.
Arent' that what the bloodline powers are? Spells/spell like abilities that normal wizards don't get?
It looks like there 3-5 spells that EVERY Sorcerer gets that Wizards can't get... Where as Every Spell (except these two) a wizard a sorcerer can get too...
they're there... they just call them something else.
Arent' that what the bloodline powers are? Spells/spell like abilities that normal wizards don't get?
It looks like there 3-5 spells that EVERY Sorcerer gets that Wizards can't get... Where as Every Spell (except these two) a wizard a sorcerer can get too...
they're there... they just call them something else.
Those aren't unique, as they are simply copied off of some other classes spell list. This thread is about why aren't there and exclusive, sorcerer only spells. Almost every other caster class has some except the sorcerer. That's it.
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I never said sorcerer's were underpowered*, and I have absolutely no interest in trying to convince you otherwise. What I am interested in is the subject of this thread, which is not about power or lack of power.
*What I did say was that sorcerer's are broken. Something completely different.
It is not underpowered but it need to be buffed? Seriously?
Where at the core level sorcerer and wizard come out fairly even, every new resource that is added in the form of metamagic feats, spells, or discoveries is one bit more versatility the wizard has over the sorcerer -- especially since the sorcerer is locked in to his fewer bonuses with no way to expand them with the new material (unlike wizards) -- where the wizard can grab any metamagic feat available with his bonus slots the majority of the sorcerer's bloodline feats are still stuck completely in core.
Your argument hold water only if the new feats, spells and c. are always better than the old ones.
The wizard has more "free" (usable for what he want) feats than a sorcerer, but it is still a limited number, and always the same number he has in the core rolebook.
So if hew wish to get the "new" feat it is one less "old" feat that he can take.
Same thing for the sorcerer. He has all those "1 feat every two levels" to use to get what metamagic feat he wish. Then he has the thematic feats of his bloodline.
Even with the slower casting time the possibility to add his metamagic feats on the fly instead of preselecting them like a wizard do is a nice advantage.
If the new spells are always better, it is a problem with the development of the game and power creep up, not with the classes.
In that situation you can ask nicely your GM to allow you to swap a few spells from the new splatbook or fork out the money for a limited wish/wish spell to permanently change some spell in your spell selection.
Those aren't unique, as they are simply copied off of some other classes spell list. This thread is about why aren't there and exclusive, sorcerer only spells. Almost every other caster class has some except the sorcerer. That's it.
I'm not talking about the 'bloodline spells' per se... Though on closer inspection it wouldn't surprise me if some of those are clerical and banned from wizards... (haven't gone through them all, so don't know for sure...)
What about the sorcerer POWERS... Like my Infernal's ability to use Corrupting Touch... and shoot hellfire... These are special abilities that mimic spells... but AREN'T spells. They're natural inborn abilites that Wizards CAN'T get.
Powers that come from the same source and the same pool as their OTHER magic. Their Blood.
Call it whatever you want, but As far as I'm concerned, my Sorcerer has 4 more spells than my buddies wizard... and they DON'T count against what I can learn/prepare for the day.
I never said sorcerer's were underpowered*, and I have absolutely no interest in trying to convince you otherwise. What I am interested in is the subject of this thread, which is not about power or lack of power.
*What I did say was that sorcerer's are broken. Something completely different.
It is not underpowered but it need to be buffed? Seriously?
Broken from a design/support stand point, not a power stand point. I can't say that sorcerers are underpowered; too many gamers over the years have played powerful sorcerers for that claim to hold water.
What I'm talking about are the numerous inconsistencies between the design balance and support concerning sorcerers. Bluntly, I think the support the sorcerer receives is half-hearted at best, laughable at worse. I'd rather not go into too much detail here, as it would devolve into another wizard vs sorcerer flame war, and those never amount to anything except closed threads.
What about the sorcerer POWERS... Like my Infernal's ability to use Corrupting Touch... and shoot hellfire... These are special abilities that mimic spells... but AREN'T spells. They're natural inborn abilites that Wizards CAN'T get.
Powers that come from the same source and the same pool as their OTHER magic. Their Blood.
Call it whatever you want, but As far as I'm concerned, my Sorcerer has 4 more spells than my buddies wizard... and they DON'T count against what I can learn/prepare for the day.
I... see...
Well, that has nothing to do with this subject, but I'll humor you. Yes, sorcerer's have nifty abilities that are linked with their bloodline. This is good, but hardly relevant. If you look at the wizard specialization abilities, you'll notice that they too have nifty abilities all their own, except those come from study. Thus both classes are even in the wildly popular supernatural and spell-like abilities they receive for their classes.
The sorcerer's bloodline super powers *still* have nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread, the subject that for some reason, some posters either can't grasp or refuse to grasp.
I'm happy you are satisfied with bloodline special abilities. I like some of them too, and they go a long way towards making sorcerer a viable class. But that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
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So, the wizard has three-four unique spells that do stuff that help him memorize more spells or something similar.
And you are bothered so much by the fact that there are no unique sorcerer spells?
Dunno, it seems that you are making an elephant from a fly here, but i guess this could be really important to you.
On the other hand, sorcerer receives half-hearted support? Have you read the splatbooks? They get at least two dozen new bloodlines, rules to change bloodline powers during play and more new spells and feats that they can use. Also, words of power...this may be a mechanic i will never-ever use, but somebody will find it fun.
A bloodline is a defining part of a sorcerer. It is what will influence the alignment, appearance and spell choices, so more bloodlines is good.
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I never said sorcerer's were underpowered*, and I have absolutely no interest in trying to convince you otherwise. What I am interested in is the subject of this thread, which is not about power or lack of power.
*What I did say was that sorcerer's are broken. Something completely different.
It is not underpowered but it need to be buffed? Seriously?
Broken from a design/support stand point, not a power stand point. I can't say that sorcerers are underpowered; too many gamers over the years have played powerful sorcerers for that claim to hold water.
What I'm talking about are the numerous inconsistencies between the design balance and support concerning sorcerers. Bluntly, I think the support the sorcerer receives is half-hearted at best, laughable at worse. I'd rather not go into too much detail here, as it would devolve into another wizard vs sorcerer flame war, and those never amount to anything except closed threads.
I don't see them getting less support than any other core class.
They have several nice archetype, at least as many as the wizard.
They have access to the new feat as any other class.
Your OP is reasonable, but your tone in the whole thread isn't, you sound like "I want my preferred class buffed at no cost".
The problem of your OP is that it will not work if done as a set of general spells for all the sorcerer bloodlines.
To satisfy your demand there should be a few specific spell for each bloodline, limited to that bloodline or some with a similar base.
Paizo is a commercial enterprise, spending the time to develop and test even 3 new, unique, spells for each of the 10 bloodlines in the core rolebook, without trampling the toes of other classes, duplicating other spells and so on will require a lot of Developer time for very little return.
The clerics have a similar problem with the Golarion deities domains. It would be very nice to have alternate spell lists/powers specific for every god of the pantheon but the time to develop them against the probable return make it not convenient.
Every so often in one of the products there is a new spell for the clerics, but even if it is flavoured to one of the specific gods generally it is not restricted only to clerics of that god.
The only way to resolve your problem is to do it at your gaming table.
You generally will have only one sorcerer in play and so one bloodline to develop at a time. You (or your GM with your input) can swap/add appropriate feats to the list of the bloodlines feat, swap spells or add spells.
You could eve add small pieces to existing spells, for example "infernal healing": If you are a sorcerer with the infernal bloodline the spell last 1 extra round and your blood count as the material component (the second part is only fluff as you already have the eschew components feat for free).
So, the wizard has three-four unique spells that do stuff that help him memorize more spells or something similar.
And you are bothered so much by the fact that there are no unique sorcerer spells?
Dunno, it seems that you are making an elephant from a fly here, but i guess this could be really important to you.
Yeah.... I'm coming off a 12 hour midnight shift... and my sarcasm meter is a bit off right now...
I'm HONESTLY having trouble telling if this is a serious thread or not!!
especially since RAW says that sorcerer can research their own unique spells all they want...
I never said sorcerer's were underpowered*, and I have absolutely no interest in trying to convince you otherwise. What I am interested in is the subject of this thread, which is not about power or lack of power.
*What I did say was that sorcerer's are broken. Something completely different.
It is not underpowered but it need to be buffed? Seriously?
Broken from a design/support stand point, not a power stand point. I can't say that sorcerers are underpowered; too many gamers over the years have played powerful sorcerers for that claim to hold water.
What I'm talking about are the numerous inconsistencies between the design balance and support concerning sorcerers. Bluntly, I think the support the sorcerer receives is half-hearted at best, laughable at worse. I'd rather not go into too much detail here, as it would devolve into another wizard vs sorcerer flame war, and those never amount to anything except closed threads.I don't see them getting less support than any other core class.
They have several nice archetype, at least as many as the wizard.
They have access to the new feat as any other class.Your OP is reasonable, but your tone in the whole thread isn't, you sound like "I want my preferred class buffed at no cost".
The problem of your OP is that it will not work if done as a set of general spells for all the sorcerer bloodlines.
To satisfy your demand there should be a few specific spell for each bloodline, limited to that bloodline or some with a similar base.Paizo is a commercial enterprise, spending the time to develop and test even 3 new, unique, spells for each of the 10 bloodlines in the core rolebook, without trampling the toes of other classes, duplicating other spells and so on will require a lot of Developer time for very little return.
The clerics have a similar problem with the Golarion deities domains. It would be very nice to have alternate...
If my tone is offensive, then I apologize, for it wasn't my intention. My tone is the way it is mainly because I always seem to get some trite, passive-aggressive aside rather than a serious response, and after awhile, that get's old.
Sorcerer is, I should mention, hardly my favorite class; I actually loath it for a number of reasons. One of which I'm addressing now. I'm not saying "I want my preferred class buffed at no cost." adding sorcerer specific spells wouldn't buff it, IMO. Rather, it would complete it and level the playing field, spell-wise.
So, the wizard has three-four unique spells that do stuff that help him memorize more spells or something similar.
And you are bothered so much by the fact that there are no unique sorcerer spells?
Dunno, it seems that you are making an elephant from a fly here, but i guess this could be really important to you.
Yeah.... I'm coming off a 12 hour midnight shift... and my sarcasm meter is a bit off right now...
I'm HONESTLY having trouble telling if this is a serious thread or not!!
especially since RAW says that sorcerer can research their own unique spells all they want...
To Hama: Yes, it is important to me, mainly because I *want* to like the sorcerer, and this is one of my issues with it. Perhaps it is a fly and not an elephant, but it is one of a swarms worth of fly's; together, they eat elephants alive (a bad analogy, I know, but meh, it's late). It's not much, but it does bother me that the sorcerer doesn't get three or four spells to help him spontaneously cast or something similar. Maybe I'm weird.
Phantom: This is a serious thread. I feel that it would even the playing field, so to speak. Maybe you don't agree, and that's fine. But the dev's do pay attention to threads like this, and I can only hope they take heed.
Yes, individual spells can be designed at the tabel, but that ins't the same as the designers of the game showing the sorcerer some uniqueness in the spell department.
So yeah, not a joke thread, and not meant to offend.
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Interestingly (or not, YMMV...) the whole 'Sorcerers get Bloodline powers' bit was a reasonable argument for their uniqueness... until Ultimate Magic gave those powers to anybody who wanted them, via the Eldritch Heritage Feat chain. If there's a similar Feat chain to, for example, pick up Wizard School powers then I seem to have missed it... ;)
Sorcerers do get the Create Sanguine Elixir Feat (which requires actual levels of Sorcerer as a prerequisite), so they have that... Yeh - a potion which robs me of my powers, requires the drinker to be as high a level as me, costs cold, hard, ca$h to make, and has a one day shelf life... be still my beating heart... :/
I don't see any particular difficulty in creating sorcerer-only spells which are generic enough to appeal to all sorcerers (instead of being Bloodline-specific). Could be as simple as a spell to boost the effective power level of your Bloodline powers by 'X' levels-worth for 'Y' duration, or to allow limited duration access to higher level Bloodline powers, or to briefly increase the effects of a Bloodline Arcana, or... well, the point being, it's not too hard to think up these things.
Between limited spells known, an inability to use Pearls of Power, the opening up of their once-unique Bloodline powers to all and sundry, and the increasing number of ways Wizards can access spontaneous or near-spontaneous casting (Greater Spell Specialization Feat and Fast Study Arcane Discovery, I'm looking at you...) the Sorcerer is looking less and less appealing as a character choice, on pure mechanics alone. All they really have left which is for them alone is their Bloodline Arcana. Would a Sorcerer-specific spell or two be too much to ask to help the poor guys out?
Broken from a design/support stand point, not a power stand point. I can't say that sorcerers are underpowered;
Because they don't have their own couple of specialty spells they are broken from a design/support stand point. They are pretty well supported just not in the way you want. I doubt that you will ever see that kind of specialized spell support. I personally don't see it as necessary since they have their nitch and do well in it.
To Hama: Yes, it is important to me, mainly because I *want* to like the sorcerer, and this is one of my issues with it.
I don't really get this If you don't play sorcerers how can you say they are broken from a design/ support standpoint. I play sorcerers a good deal of the time and I personally like the class and feel it is balanced with the wizard and don't feel I am being short changed by taking the class. It is hard to pick spells at first level but I can say the same thing about the wizard every day at the lower levels of play.
Interestingly (or not, YMMV...) the whole 'Sorcerers get Bloodline powers' bit was a reasonable argument for their uniqueness... until Ultimate Magic gave those powers to anybody who wanted them, via the Eldritch Heritage Feat chain.
The chain does dip into the bloodline. It does not provide all of the abilities of the bloodline and it does so at a steep cost. with the requirement of 13, 15, and 17 charisma respectively. I mainly see this chain of feats supporting the Sorcerer and other spontaneous casters.
I don't see any particular difficulty in creating sorcerer-only spells which are generic enough to appeal to all sorcerers (instead of being Bloodline-specific). Could be as simple as a spell to boost the effective power level of your Bloodline powers by 'X' levels-worth for 'Y' duration, or to allow limited duration access to higher level Bloodline powers, or to briefly increase the effects of a Bloodline Arcana, or... well, the point being, it's not too hard to think up these things.
I could make a half a dozen spells within a day BUT that does not mean they would be balanced. for example the spell you where talking about would probably fall under the unbalanced category due to how powerful caster level is to spells.
Greater Spell Specialization Feat and Fast Study Arcane Discovery, I'm looking at you...) the Sorcerer is looking less and less appealing as a character choice, on pure mechanics alone.
You forgot Preferred spell though the feat is also helpful to Sorcerers since it allows metamagic without an increase in casting time. Greater Spell Specialization is at the end of 2 other feats. Nice feats but it is still an investment just like the heritage feats would be. Sorcerers received Spontaneous Metafocus witch allows them to use metamagic without increasing casting time. I don't see fast study being that ground breaking. 1 min as opposed to 15 mins to fill a spell slot is not really that different from a game standpoint. I can't imagine many situations that are time sensitive that waiting 1 min would be much different from waiting 15 mins. Not that their aren't any but it is a situational ability.
All they really have left which is for them alone is their Bloodline Arcana.
Don't sell the Sorcerer short they are the only spontaneous arcane caster class that can use 9th level spells. That is pretty unique nitch.
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Flipping through the spell section of Ultimate Magic, I notice the spell Blood Transcription; specifically, i notice that it is a wizard only spell. Then I remember seeing another wizard only spell in the Players Handbook: Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (or just Mnemonic Enhancer, as the kid's like to call it these days).Why don't sorcerers get any love in the spell department? Why no unique options for them, spell wise? It is kind of discouraging to see wizards getting goodies, while the poor sorcerer is left with the scraps. Like always.
The only wizard-only spells that exist are those that revolve around functions that wizards have but sorcerers do not, preparing spells and learning new spells, they would do absolutely nothing for a sorcerer even if he cast them using UMD. A sorcerer-only spell would have to revolve around a quality sorcerers have but wizards do not. There were a couple such in spell compendium that touched particurlarly on spontaneous casting. and they were all considerably on the broken side.