I've been entertaining myself with some exercises on odd character concepts and builds lately, and one of voices in my head just went "Dude, Druid / Witch / Mystic Theurge!" Obvious pro reason is both Druid and Witch are full progression classes, so Theurge is option at 7, and benefits to spellcasting progression are definite. Obvious con reason is, both Druid and Witch rely on many non-spellcasting level-acquired abilities such as hexes and shapeshifting, and multiclassing hurts those.
That being said, I haven't actually gone much further than the basic idea. So, here's my today's Exercise in Crazy challenge : what can you build in this class-set? Say up to 12th level? As detailed or as vague as you want, but please no "arguments against". I can think of those if I give it a thought, but they're beyond the scope of the idea :)
Andro the Bored.
Feats should center around getting more of those old class features, like Extra Hex, or Extra Wildshape (if that is a feat).
You'd definitely be focusing on your spellcasting.
I've been entertaining myself with some exercises on odd character concepts and builds lately, and one of voices in my head just went "Dude, Druid / Witch / Mystic Theurge!" Obvious pro reason is both Druid and Witch are full progression classes, so Theurge is option at 7, and benefits to spellcasting progression are definite. Obvious con reason is, both Druid and Witch rely on many non-spellcasting level-acquired abilities such as hexes and shapeshifting, and multiclassing hurts those.
That being said, I haven't actually gone much further than the basic idea. So, here's my today's Exercise in Crazy challenge : what can you build in this class-set? Say up to 12th level? As detailed or as vague as you want, but please no "arguments against". I can think of those if I give it a thought, but they're beyond the scope of the idea :)
Andro the Bored.
I just did that, like 4 days ago, as a villain.
I went Blight Druid archetype -- no companion in favour of a domain, since the domain spells come with caster levels (while your companion would be a wee little familiar-like thing at best). Looks pretty good so far, but then, she's not able to shape-change yet.
I've had fun rolling this around the back of my brain today. It's funny how unnatural the fit between Druid and Witch feels. Having said that, here's what I might do:
- Magical Knack Trait - Druid
- Lion Shaman Druid (Nobility Domain) 5/Witch 3/Mystic Theurge 4
- BAB+6 Fort+6 Ref+3 Will+9
- Druid Caster Level 11(5th level spells)
- Witch Caster Level 7(4th level spells)
- Witch first/second level spells can be prepared in Druid slots for higher effective caster level and ability to ignore arcane spell failure chance.
- Casts Summon Nature's Ally as a Standard Action when summoning Felines and boosts those felines.
Going 3/3/MT just feels like it's giving up the best things the Druid has to offer. Once I convinced myself that in order to go Druid you just HAD to go a minimum of Druid 4 (Wildshape/Lowest level at which animal companions get their special boost), it wasn't hard to decide that Druid 5 made more sense for the extra level of spells. And once I got to Druid 5, the Totems with their enhanced SNAs started looking really, really good.
I've had fun rolling this around the back of my brain today. It's funny how unnatural the fit between Druid and Witch feels. Having said that, here's what I might do:
- Magical Knack Trait - Druid
- Lion Shaman Druid (Nobility Domain) 5/Witch 3/Mystic Theurge 4
- BAB+6 Fort+6 Ref+3 Will+9
- Druid Caster Level 11(5th level spells)
- Witch Caster Level 7(4th level spells)
- Witch first/second level spells can be prepared in Druid slots for higher effective caster level and ability to ignore arcane spell failure chance.
- Casts Summon Nature's Ally as a Standard Action when summoning Felines and boosts those felines.
Going 3/3/MT just feels like it's giving up the best things the Druid has to offer. Once I convinced myself that in order to go Druid you just HAD to go a minimum of Druid 4 (Wildshape/Lowest level at which animal companions get their special boost), it wasn't hard to decide that Druid 5 made more sense for the extra level of spells. And once I got to Druid 5, the Totems with their enhanced SNAs started looking really, really good.
Just remember that you give up the companion (and hence the upgrade) for the domain... Having said that, the enhanced SNAs are pretty spiffy (more for the speed than the temporary hit points, though I suppose *those* are nice when you summon a gang of smaller kitties instead of a single Dire Lion) - though I point out that there aren't cats on all the lists (only the L3-6 lists have cats), and that you wouldn't get Wildshape 'til your 6th level of Druid as a Shaman. (You *do* get the L2 totem transformation, however, so there's a definite plus to that, also)
You're clearly going for a different feel from the one I did -- I imagine your Witch patron is also something helpful? :) I actually find that there's a lot more synergy to these classes than a lot of other theurge builds I've seen.
Just remember that you give up the companion (and hence the upgrade) for the domain... Having said that, the enhanced SNAs are pretty spiffy (more for the speed than the temporary hit points, though I suppose *those* are nice when you summon a gang of smaller kitties instead of a single Dire Lion) - though I point out that there aren't cats on all the lists (only the L3-6 lists have cats), and that you wouldn't get Wildshape 'til your 6th level of Druid as a Shaman. (You *do* get the L2 totem transformation, however, so there's a definite plus to that, also)
You're clearly going for a different feel from the one I did -- I imagine your Witch patron is also something helpful? :) I actually find that there's a lot more synergy to these classes than a lot of other theurge builds I've seen.
Yeah - losing the companion isn't fun early on, but by the time this build hits 12 the companion would be more of a liability to be protected than an asset to be used anyway. The Nobility abilities and bonus spells on the other hand are very nice party enhancers with Inspiring Word having good utility and both Divine Favor and Magical Vestment scaling nicely. Nothing wrong with always having an Enthrall prepared by default either.
For the list, remember that you effectively have cats from L2-L8 because you can apply the young, advanced and/or giant templates to them. At SNA IX you can just grab MORE Advanced Giant Dire Tigers. By the time you hit 5th level, that should be plenty for a long, long time.
I'm not sure the patron matters much, since you'll only ever get a single bonus spell out of it. I'm partial to Spirits or Stars since dealing with invisible and incorporeal is always annoying and either helps your damage dealers deal damage. I think I like Weasel best for a Familiar to get that Reflex save up to a halfway decent chance to save.
And LazarX, I understand MT is all about the spells - I just happen to think that at 18 you'd want to be at Druid5/Witch3/MT10 anyway and that you are significantly more effective from 6-16 as Druid+2/Witch/MT than you are at Druid/Witch/MT+2. The reason is that your Druid casting level will be the same and you will be regularly using SNA in combat. The loss of 2 caster levels for Witch is in part ignorable because you will be using more battlefield control from Witch than blaster and because you can put witch spells in druid slots for more advantageous casting anyway.
I've had fun rolling this around the back of my brain today. It's funny how unnatural the fit between Druid and Witch feels.
I don't think it's unnatural at all. I think it is very flavorful and would make an excellent pair of archetypes (one for a Druidy-Witch and one for a Witchy-Druid).
A druid trading wild shape for hexes, or a witch getting an animal companion in place of some hexes... A prestige classs tailored for this would be acceptable as well, though I prefer archetypes for the lack of a need to multiclass and wait on the abilities to mix.
Yeah - losing the companion isn't fun early on, but by the time this build hits 12 the companion would be more of a liability to be protected than an asset to be used anyway. The Nobility abilities and bonus spells on the other hand are very nice party enhancers with Inspiring Word having good utility and both Divine Favor and Magical Vestment scaling nicely. Nothing wrong with always having an Enthrall prepared by default either.
For the list, remember that you effectively have cats from L2-L8 because you can apply the young, advanced and/or giant templates to them. At SNA IX you can just grab MORE Advanced Giant Dire Tigers. By the time you hit 5th level, that should be plenty for a long, long time.
I'm not sure the patron matters much, since you'll only ever get a single bonus spell out of it. I'm partial to Spirits or Stars since dealing with invisible and incorporeal is always annoying and either helps your damage dealers deal damage. I think I like Weasel best for a Familiar to get that Reflex save up to a halfway decent chance to save.
No, it's a good choice -- domains scale with your caster level, animals scale with your druid level. As I said, I did the same thing when I made mine - just took a different domain (Death), cause, well "Blight Druid". In terms of Witch Patron being helpful, I meant something less dark and nasty than what I took - and purely for the fluff/flavour of it. I imagine, also, based on your character flavour, it would make more sense to have a cat familiar (though I do like the Weasel, mechanically).
And, yeah, sorry -- totally remembered the temp hp and the fast-cast summons, but then forgot you could apply templates. That certainly helps -- and is pretty darn spiffy when you think about Advanced Giant Dire Tigers. I think I'd rather have multiple of those than any single IX creature. :)
I've had fun rolling this around the back of my brain today. It's funny how unnatural the fit between Druid and Witch feels.I don't think it's unnatural at all. I think it is very flavorful and would make an excellent pair of archetypes (one for a Druidy-Witch and one for a Witchy-Druid).
I totally get the flavor - I'm digging the flavor. When I said "it's funny how unnatural..." what I meant was "you'd think something with this much flavor synergy would be easier to work for mechanical synergy".
I totally get the flavor - I'm digging the flavor. When I said "it's funny how unnatural..." what I meant was "you'd think something with this much flavor synergy would be easier to work for mechanical synergy".I've had fun rolling this around the back of my brain today. It's funny how unnatural the fit between Druid and Witch feels.I don't think it's unnatural at all. I think it is very flavorful and would make an excellent pair of archetypes (one for a Druidy-Witch and one for a Witchy-Druid).
Ah. ;) Then we actually thought the same [or a very similiar] thought, you just think your thoughts a different way. I really had hoped for some cool witch combos with Ultimate Magic. Not only Witch+Druid, but Witch+Bard and Witch+Barbarian as well would have made really interesting mixtures, though I suppose the latter could be emulated by an Oracle+Barbarian=Rage Prophet combo...
The witch/druid combo can work, as long as you keep a few things in perspective. The main issue is your hex's save DC's won't increase as you advance through mystic theurge; things like misfortune and slumber will rapidly decrease in effectiveness as time goes by. I would focus on hex's that don't rely on saving throws or aren't offensive in nature; healing hex, ward, tongues, etc. Ultimate Magic also has a few that will be of use to your character, such as feral speech (awesome for druid/witches everywhere), prehensile hair, swamp hag, and water lung. You probably won't ever get any of the major or grand hexes, but that's not much of a loss IMO.
You'll be able to take extra hex to pick up more hexes once you enter mystic theurge; despite the loss of a few of the better ones, many of the hexes will be of great use to your character.
Also, if you are allowed to use 3.5 materials, Races of the Wild has the Arcane Hierophant prestige class, which is a wizard/druid combo. It would work almost as well for a witch as it would for a wizard.
Also, if you are allowed to use 3.5 materials, Races of the Wild has the Arcane Hierophant prestige class, which is a wizard/druid combo. It would work almost as well for a witch as it would for a wizard.
Better, considering how reliant the Witch is on her familiar.
Also, if you are allowed to use 3.5 materials, Races of the Wild has the Arcane Hierophant prestige class, which is a wizard/druid combo. It would work almost as well for a witch as it would for a wizard.Better, considering how reliant the Witch is on her familiar.
When the walking spellbook can kill you things get interesting. :)
When the walking spellbook can kill you things get interesting. :)Also, if you are allowed to use 3.5 materials, Races of the Wild has the Arcane Hierophant prestige class, which is a wizard/druid combo. It would work almost as well for a witch as it would for a wizard.Better, considering how reliant the Witch is on her familiar.
Lol, very true. Having a Lion that acts as a living spell book and who eats the faces of those that threaten you would be killer.
In fact, the only thing you lose out on (besides a few spell levels from each class) are the higher level hexes. And once you level out of Arcane Heirophant, go into mystic theurge.
I would go Druid 3/Witch 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4; this nets you 9th level casting on both classes at 20th level.