Summoner's Eidolon

[Morris Chan]

since its a summoned creature can u use augment summoning feat on it?

[Aldin]

Morris Chan wrote:

since its a summoned creature can u use augment summoning feat on it?

Nope. You don't conjure it with a spell.

[obadiah]

I don't think so unless you use the Summon Eidolon spell because augment summoning only works for summon spells you cast.

Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

I vaguely remember this being discussed at length before and if you do a search for augment summoning you should find it.

[Morris Chan]

also are creatures with natural attacks concidered to have the improved unarmed attack feat?

[Aldin]

obadiah wrote:

I don't think so unless you use the Summon Eidolon spell ...

Good point. I suppose it should work when you use the Summon Eidolon spell.

[obadiah]

A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[John Templeton]

It is a spell like ability so yes it does, along with the summoner's spell like ability of summon monster. This has been answered in a previous thread.

[Bobson]

Morris Chan wrote:

also are creatures with natural attacks concidered to have the improved unarmed attack feat?

No, natural attacks and unarmed strikes are two very different things. In most cases, natural attacks are far superior.

[Omelite]

John Templeton wrote:

It is a spell like ability so yes it does, along with the summoner's spell like ability of summon monster. This has been answered in a previous thread.

Summoning the Eidolon through the Eidolon class feature is not a spell like ability, and it does not benefit from augment summoning.

Further, the only reason the Summon Monster SLA gets the bonus from Augment Summoning is because it's specifically replicating a spell that benefits from Augment Summoning. The same cannot be said of summoning the Eidolon using the class feature. Also there would be significant balance issues given that Eidolons can be kept out all day.

[james maissen]

Omelite wrote:

Further, the only reason the Summon Monster SLA gets the bonus from Augment Summoning is because it's specifically replicating a spell that benefits from Augment Summoning. The same cannot be said of summoning the Eidolon using the class feature. Also there would be significant balance issues given that Eidolons can be kept out all day.

Funny the class feature is very similar to a summon spell for which is does work. The class feature isn't type SP but rather SU.

As for balance, it's an enhancement bonus and won't stack with a belt, so it's not out there especially when you figure that the summoner can't share slots with the eidolon.

-James

[Bobson]

james maissen wrote:

Omelite wrote:

Further, the only reason the Summon Monster SLA gets the bonus from Augment Summoning is because it's specifically replicating a spell that benefits from Augment Summoning. The same cannot be said of summoning the Eidolon using the class feature. Also there would be significant balance issues given that Eidolons can be kept out all day.

Funny the class feature is very similar to a summon spell for which is does work. The class feature isn't type SP but rather SU.

As for balance, it's an enhancement bonus and won't stack with a belt, so it's not out there especially when you figure that the summoner can't share slots with the eidolon.

-James

Summoning an Eidolon is a 1 minute ritual which is technically neither extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like, or a spell. Given everything else connected to them is supernatural, it's probably intended on being Su. As a supernatural ability, it does not meet the requirements of "Each creature you conjure with any summon spell". The "summon eidolon" spell is a spell, however, and so does qualify.

Summon Monster SLA qualifies because "a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability". Here it's a spell-like ability, which is like casting a spell, and the feat applies to spells.

So they're really not very similar. I'm not even sure it's viable as a houserule, because it then makes Augment Summoning into a must-have feat for a summoner, and must-have feats are a sign of poor balance.

[james maissen]

Bobson wrote:

Summoning an Eidolon is a 1 minute ritual which is technically neither extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like, or a spell. Given everything else connected to them is supernatural, it's probably intended on being Su. As a supernatural ability, it does not meet the requirements of "Each creature you conjure with any summon spell". The "summon eidolon" spell is a spell, however, and so does qualify.

Well technically it really needs to be SU or SP, as I can't imagine them wanting it to be able to be done inside an antimagic field for example...

The summoner class is a little sloppy in places (mostly the way they were 'balancing' things).

But other than that we do agree. I was just commenting that if it were an SP ability then it really does tend to mirror summon eidolon and one could argue that augment summoning could apply. And further that it really wouldn't break anything.

Bobson wrote:

Summon Monster SLA qualifies because "a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability". Here it's a spell-like ability, which is like casting a spell, and the feat applies to spells.

So they're really not very similar. I'm not even sure it's viable as a houserule, because it then makes Augment Summoning into a must-have feat for a summoner, and must-have feats are a sign of poor balance.

I don't really have a problem with 'THE' summoning feat being a 'must' have for a Summoner. It would be like complaining about the archery feats for a class called 'archer'! But then again I think that they've made the class more 'Pokemon master' than a summoner...

-James

[John Templeton]

Andrew Betts wrote:
Can Augment Summoning also affect monsters summoned through this Spell-Like Ability?

Yes

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[obadiah]

John Templeton wrote:

Andrew Betts wrote:

Can Augment Summoning also affect monsters summoned through this Spell-Like Ability?

Yes

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Are you sure that isn't referring to the Summon Monster SLA summoners have? Because calling an Eidolon isn't an SLA.

Summon Monster Spell-Like Ability:

Summon Monster I (Sp)

Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.

[Bobson]

james maissen wrote:

I don't really have a problem with 'THE' summoning feat being a 'must' have for a Summoner. It would be like complaining about the archery feats for a class called 'archer'!

There's at least two ways to build any martial character - go for many attacks (TWF / Rapid shot chains) or go for one really powerful attack (Vital strike chain). No class has a class feature which is so amazingly good that every single build picks up the Extra _____ feat for it. Even selective channelling is optional for some clerics. But I can't think of a viable (base) summoner build that wouldn't benefit from +4 Str and Con on his eidolon. Either the eidolon is melee (like most) and benefits from both, or it's ranged, which generally means attacks which cause saves (and thus benefit from Con). About the only builds I can think of would be one where the eidolon doesn't participate in combat or one where the eidolon is given arms and crossbows (not regular bows!) and made to shoot from range.

Are there any other "must" feats I'm not thinking of?

[james maissen]

Bobson wrote:

Are there any other "must" feats I'm not thinking of?

First, what summoning focused PC wouldn't want augment summoning? It's pretty much a must feat for them all around.

Second take a look at feats like point blank shot and power attack for a second... are they not 'must have' for archers and two-handed fighters resp?

I don't think it's out of like for a summoner to have pressure to have augment summoning, just like I don't think it's out of line for an archer to feel the need for precise shot, a thug fighter to demand power attack, etc.

Now, personally, I think that the focus of the Summoner class should be on ... summoning rather than a specific pet.

The question is how completely over the top would it be? It gives an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with bull's strength/bear's endurance or belts of the same. At best it's saving cash and letting the summoner have a CON belt because of one of the weird crazy restrictions on the class.

That's not the end of the world as we know it.

Honestly though if we were revamping things I ditch the eidolon completely and let summoners have a single permanent summon that they give the familiar-type template upon. When they level they can swap out the form of the critter.. even give fluff that the 'eidolon' is a spirit that inhabits the body of one of the summoner's summoned creatures, etc. Then do away with all of the special rules on slots, distance, runes, evolutions, armor wearing, etc.

The build a critter with points is a mistake.. the game is not point based and even if it were it shouldn't be one pool of points. To shoehorn the class with a ton of special rules and exceptions is bad design.. if you have balance problems you work them out by things other than fiat.

-James

[cfalcon]

This has been answered several times, but it's still a common question.

Augment Summoning emphatically does not boost an Eidolon that is present due to the normal ritual.

Augment Summoning does work for an Eidolon brought out with the Summon Eidolon spell. That's a spell that summons a creature. Note that the Eidolon is much more similar to a normally summoned creature in this case.

Augment Summoning does work with the Summon Monster SLA that Summoners get. Note that in most cases, this is exclusive with the Eidolon (or is intended to be), such that you can only have one out (and the Eidolon is almost always the better choice).

Augment Summoning of course works with the summon monster spells that you can learn as a summoner.

As for houserules, your call. I think the Summoner does not need that sort of help, and it locks up two feats, and scales poorly in the endgame. It's too good at level 1, and pretty lame later for the Eidolon. Note that Spell Focus Conjuration is unusually poor for the Summoner.

[james maissen]

cfalcon wrote:

Note that Spell Focus Conjuration is unusually poor for the Summoner.

How do you figure that?

A great deal of the summoner's attack spells that have saves are conjuration.

It's the druid that doesn't benefit much, if at all, from this feat... yet if they are going with summoning they eat it for augment.

-James

[Omelite]

james maissen wrote:

Omelite wrote:

Further, the only reason the Summon Monster SLA gets the bonus from Augment Summoning is because it's specifically replicating a spell that benefits from Augment Summoning. The same cannot be said of summoning the Eidolon using the class feature. Also there would be significant balance issues given that Eidolons can be kept out all day.

Funny the class feature is very similar to a summon spell for which is does work. The class feature isn't type SP but rather SU.

The class feature is much different. First off, the Eidolon is immune to most of the summoned-creature-specific things. He shares a magical link with you, etc. The spell notes specifically that it's different from the actual class feature in all these ways.

Quote:

As for balance, it's an enhancement bonus and won't stack with a belt, so it's not out there especially when you figure that the summoner can't share slots with the eidolon.

-James

It would be incredibly unbalanced. If you're only looking at level 20, then sure it's not unbalanced, but it would be severely unbalanced at lower levels. You're essentially getting an item worth 40,000gp for free, without using an item slot. It's something you'll want a more powerful version of anyway at level 20, but it's certainly overpowering for the Eidolon whose stats are not underpowered without it.

Augment Summoning is still a good feat for a summoner. When the Eidolon dies, it'll severely increase the effectiveness of the backup option.

[james maissen]

Omelite wrote:

james maissen wrote:

Funny the class feature is very similar to a summon spell for which is does work. The class feature isn't type SP but rather SU.

The class feature is much different. First off, the Eidolon is immune to most of the summoned-creature-specific things. He shares a magical link with you, etc. The spell notes specifically that it's different from the actual class feature in all these ways.

The Eidolon specifically is summoned. The summoner class is so chalk-filled with exceptions though and this is no different in its ability to ignore magic circles and similar wards. But the Eidolon is expressly a summoned creature (Banishment, Dismissal, etc).

It's an (unlisted) SU ability that closely resembles the spell summon eidolon except in duration much like the Summoner's SP ability to summon monsters is much like the spell except in duration.

It's no big deal, and frankly the enhancement bonus isn't either. If the feat 'summoner's call' did this with the requirements of another feat (that some feel is useless for the summoner) it would not be out of line. Would it be beneficial? Yes. Game breaking? No.

But then again I guess I would still be allowing Eidolons to wear armor with removing the evolutions augmenting it and lowering the natural armor progression automatically given. That's assuming that I didn't go for a complete rewrite that would remove all these 'needed' exceptions to the normal rules in the class.

-James

[Nostagar]

Omelite wrote:

It would be incredibly unbalanced. If you're only looking at level 20, then sure it's not unbalanced, but it would be severely unbalanced at lower levels. You're essentially getting an item worth 40,000gp for free, without using an item slot. It's something you'll want a more powerful version of anyway at level 20, but it's certainly overpowering for the Eidolon whose stats are not underpowered without it.

Augment Summoning is still a good feat for a summoner. When the Eidolon dies, it'll severely increase the effectiveness of the backup option.

And at first level, the fighter is very unbalanced compared to the caster classes. He can swing that sword all day long, and the poor wizard only get "Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Oh, I'm done..." The Rogue can't find the back of his hand, let alone traps, and the cleric at least can get two good heals in on the fighter. [/sarcasm]

oh, wait... not everything has to be the same effectiveness at every level...