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I really have a problem with focus on PA from players, but I'm glad Season 3 will see changes in that department and lessen the amount of times I hear "so is my PA mission in this room (although for complete disclosure, I'm sure I've been guilty of that too)?" Regardless I have a pet peeve when it comes to PA. I cannot stand, especially as a GM, the sleight of hand, stealth checks, etc. vs perception of other party members. This really annoys me when they are to be considered the "harder" PA checks.
I don't see how those types of checks are fair to other factions. While other factions have to do just a baseline roll in some random skill during a scenario, some factions get variable DCs and can get out of even doing a roll by saying "well I wait until I'm alone with no one else around" or some derivative of the statement. That completely negates the whole purpose of a harder second PA, nor do I find that solution particularly creative.
What I'm trying to get at is for Season 3 and onward is a plea to completely get rid of those PA checks against other party members because it a) sets a variable DC that could be much higher / lower than intended or b) there are ways where players feel they can completely negate having to make a check. If the amount of PA actually earned vs. the amount of potential PA possible is going to count for something in Season 3, please don't have checks vs. other party members because it truly isn't fair - especially with faction competition ramping up.
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I really have a problem with focus on PA from players, but I'm glad Season 3 will see changes in that department and lessen the amount of times I hear "so is my PA mission in this room (although for complete disclosure, I'm sure I've been guilty of that too)?" Regardless I have a pet peeve when it comes to PA. I cannot stand, especially as a GM, the sleight of hand, stealth checks, etc. vs perception of other party members. This really annoys me when they are to be considered the "harder" PA checks.
I don't see how those types of checks are fair to other factions. While other factions have to do just a baseline roll in some random skill during a scenario, some factions get variable DCs and can get out of even doing a roll by saying "well I wait until I'm alone with no one else around" or some derivative of the statement. That completely negates the whole purpose of a harder second PA, nor do I find that solution particularly creative.
What I'm trying to get at is for Season 3 and onward is a plea to completely get rid of those PA checks against other party members because it a) sets a variable DC that could be much higher / lower than intended or b) there are ways where players feel they can completely negate having to make a check. If the amount of PA actually earned vs. the amount of potential PA possible is going to count for something in Season 3, please don't have checks vs. other party members because it truly isn't fair - especially with faction competition ramping up.
I agree that the way in which the skill checks for PA are used is skewed and not always fair across the boards. For example, in one module, three Taldoran Fighters had to make a Linguistics roll to get his PA. None of them had Linguistics and so could not make the roll. Fighter is supposedly one of the favored classes for the Taldor faction, and Linguistics is not a class skill for Fighters. There seems to be a disconnect here.
Secondly, while I know that some skills have hard DC's set in the core rule book, and we should all strive to use the core rule book as written as much as possible in organized play, to have say Cheliax need to make a DC 20 Diplomacy and a Osirian make a DC 25 Knowledge (whatever) doesn't seem to jive to me. Why are the DC's different? In a tiered game, why is it actually more difficult (realistically it makes sense, but in a game where everything else is tiered) for a 1-2 Tier to do faction missions than a 3-4 Tier? If you want it to be very difficult, why not set the DC at 20 + APL? or moderately difficult 15 + APL. Still assures that some folks won't be able to make it (they couldn't get a 22 even with a natural 20) but doesn't penalize lower level characters simply because they are playing the module at a lower tier.
Had one module where the Cheliax guy had to simply realize someone was present for their easy PA (and to notice this was to be present), then their difficult PA was the same Diplomacy 20 DC as the Andoran's easy Diplomacy 20 DC, and the Andoran's difficult was a DC 25 Diplomacy. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect there.
So I disagree with your main reason for writing this post. Having rolls where you roll off your party member's perception or sense motive or whatever, actually is MORE fair, than the situations above. At least you know your DC will probably be tier specific rather than static regardless of tier. And if you don't like having to roll against the Rogue's perception or Cleric's sense motive, then perhaps you should not adventure with those two characters again.
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I agree that the way in which the skill checks for PA are used is skewed and not always fair across the boards. For example, in one module, three Taldoran Fighters had to make a Linguistics roll to get his PA. None of them had Linguistics and so could not make the roll. Fighter is supposedly one of the favored classes for the Taldor faction, and Linguistics is not a class skill for Fighters. There seems to be a disconnect here.
Andrew, I'm not sure hat scenario you're talking about here, but: do the Taldorans have any way to hire an NPC to use Linguistics for them, or are they far out in the wilderness, and the thing-to-be-Linguisticized (some piece or ancient writing, or a passport to be forged; same skill set) unable to be moved to more civilized environs?
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I agree that the way in which the skill checks for PA are used is skewed and not always fair across the boards. For example, in one module, three Taldoran Fighters had to make a Linguistics roll to get his PA. None of them had Linguistics and so could not make the roll. Fighter is supposedly one of the favored classes for the Taldor faction, and Linguistics is not a class skill for Fighters. There seems to be a disconnect here.
This may be the same scenario my Taldoran Monk had to make a linguistics check on. I actually DO have a rank in linguistics, but as I did not roll a natural 20, I failed.
I'm not enamored with the faction missions, especially when they involve conflicting goals (kill Person X for one faction, save Person X for another) where only one side can win and given the ban on pvp, Kill Person X always wins. Fortunately these missions are few and far between. Perhaps worse are the ones where you have to NOT kill one of the guys who decides to attack you. I nearly died in one scenario because I was the only one fighting while the three other players (all from the same faction *cough* Andor *cough*) gave the guy who snuck attack me 4 rounds of "final warnings" to surrender. Players are so desperate to finish faction missions, they ignore the circumstances around them. (I finally resorted to metagaming and started doing non-lethal damage and said "You can knock him out!" If my fellow Pathfinders are metagaming for PA instead of helping the guy losing hit points, I'm going to break out of roleplaying too.) Personally I prefer the ones with a bit of roleplaying and deduction to "make a skill check or you fail." Sneaking off to do a mission is fine by me as long as everyone has a similar option. One of the funniest things I saw was someone getting caught and manhandled by the city guard while hammering a notice up on a wall (majorly failed a stealth check) and another player using the disturbance to complete her faction mission.
The big problem for me is uneven editing.
The Society team needs to sit down and provide a Scenario Designers' Bible. "Here's what we want as a difficulty goal for the 10 faction missions. If you're going to make one faction have to do a Knowledge: Nature check, give another an equally difficult Knowledge: The Planes." And then make sure it's done right.
My seperate rant is about how easy it is for the faction with four members at the table (I'm looking at you Andor) compared to the lone Taldan or Qadiran when only one person needs to succeed on the check.
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I agree that the way in which the skill checks for PA are used is skewed and not always fair across the boards. For example, in one module, three Taldoran Fighters had to make a Linguistics roll to get his PA. None of them had Linguistics and so could not make the roll. Fighter is supposedly one of the favored classes for the Taldor faction, and Linguistics is not a class skill for Fighters. There seems to be a disconnect here.Andrew, I'm not sure hat scenario you're talking about here, but: do the Taldorans have any way to hire an NPC to use Linguistics for them, or are they far out in the wilderness, and the thing-to-be-Linguisticized (some piece or ancient writing, or a passport to be forged; same skill set) unable to be moved to more civilized environs?
In the particular module I'm talking about, it really wouldn't have worked to hire someone.
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My seperate rant is about how easy it is for the faction with four members at the table (I'm looking at you Andor) compared to the lone Taldan or Qadiran when only one person needs to succeed on the check.
Interestingly enough, at my local PFS group, I used to be the lone Andoran at a table of Taldorans (until a new ranger showed up - Thanks Wraithcannon!)
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Wasn't the baseline for PA awarded per scenario equal to 1.5?
If three Fighters, which, last time I checked, were not exactly skill-heavy classes, were unable to get that second PA because none of them took Linguistics... that's a good thing.
The faction missions are already so much of a gimme, so terribly easy to accomplish, that we have 7Int/7Wis/7Cha Fighters who manage to earn more than the baseline 1.5 PA per scenario.
They're so easy to accomplish that they're being treated as entitlements, not earned rewards. That's the real problem.
-Matt
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Wasn't the baseline for PA awarded per scenario equal to 1.5?
If three Fighters, which, last time I checked, were not exactly skill-heavy classes, were unable to get that second PA because none of them took Linguistics... that's a good thing.
The faction missions are already so much of a gimme, so terribly easy to accomplish, that we have 7Int/7Wis/7Cha Fighters who manage to earn more than the baseline 1.5 PA per scenario.
They're so easy to accomplish that they're being treated as entitlements, not earned rewards. That's the real problem.
-Matt
That isn't the argument. Yes, there should be some difficult faction missions, and perhaps some that won't happen because the roll cannot be made. But if a class is considered favorable for a faction, then the missions should probably actually be EASIER for a Fighter than say the classes it is not favorable for. And for the record, if I'd create a fighter, it would never be tanked that badly. I would at the very least have a 12 Int. And probably still would not have taken a point in Linguistics.
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Andrew, I'm not sure hat scenario you're talking about here, but: do the Taldorans have any way to hire an NPC to use Linguistics for them, or are they far out in the wilderness, and the thing-to-be-Linguisticized (some piece or ancient writing, or a passport to be forged; same skill set) unable to be moved to more civilized environs?
I was under the impression that you cannot hire NPCs do roll a skill check for you, just like you cant hire a spellcaster to do something for you. Is this false info I was previously given on the boards?
Also, in regards to the opposed Sleight of Hand vs Perception types of faction missions, I think they are perfectly fine as long as its not an opposed faction. If Cheliax needs to plant something for Andoran to find, who cares if the Osirion sees you. He has no idea whats going on.
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Also, in regards to the opposed Sleight of Hand vs Perception types of faction missions, I think they are perfectly fine as long as its not an opposed faction. If Cheliax needs to plant something for Andoran to find, who cares if the Osirion sees you. He has no idea whats going on.
No, but you're going to have to bribe the Qadiran to keep their mouth shut every time. When are we going to get a table for that? =D
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I was under the impression that you cannot hire NPCs do roll a skill check for you, just like you cant hire a spellcaster to do something for you. Is this false info I was previously given on the boards?
I am unaware of any rule preventing this, and as a matter of fact, as a player, I have been nudged by the GM to do this very thing on numerous occasions. Assuming you are in a large city like Absalom, and have access to experts, why couldn't you hire one to perform a one-shot service for you? However, there is always confusion as to what they should charge you for their service.
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No, but you're going to have to bribe the Qadiran to keep their mouth shut every time. When are we going to get a table for that? =DAlso, in regards to the opposed Sleight of Hand vs Perception types of faction missions, I think they are perfectly fine as long as its not an opposed faction. If Cheliax needs to plant something for Andoran to find, who cares if the Osirion sees you. He has no idea whats going on.
If they purposely try to ruin it for you, Id say that falls under the 'Dont be a jerk' policy of PFS. Also, you cant pay anything that carries over, so a bribe is kinda limited in what it could be. Also also, even if the Qadiran does speak up, it could then be the Chelaxians bluff vs the Andoran's Sense Motive. Also also also, if there arent any Andorans, I wouldnt even bother trying to be sneaky about it, personally.
I am unaware of any rule preventing this, and as a matter of fact, as a player, I have been nudged by the GM to do this very thing on numerous occasions. Assuming you are in a large city like Absalom, and have access to experts, why couldn't you hire one to perform a one-shot service for you? However, there is always confusion as to what they should charge you for their service.
Im unaware of any rule preventing it either, but after missing a prestige in a mission for lack of Disable Device, I asked on these forums if a player could hire an npc to make a skill check for them. I received a resounding 'NO' from almost everyone in the thread on the basis of 'its probably the same as the spellcaster thing'.
Personally, I dont see why not, since its not specifically banned in PFS.
If you can take whatever it is that needs the help of an npc TO that npc, then it is fine. What you cannot do is hire an npc to come along with you on the mission.
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If you can take whatever it is that needs the help of an npc TO that npc, then it is fine. What you cannot do is hire an npc to come along with you on the mission.
I think several groups did this to finish "The Darkest Vengeance"...
I'd like an official ruling on this, because it's quite common (in cities like Absalom) to hire an NPC with a certain skill to finish your faction mission, if you (or your party) don't have the skill.
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I think it's complete crap that you can hire NPCs to do your faction missions. If Season 3 is going to be dependent on how successful each faction is at completing their mission, then I sure hope this practice of hiring someone to make a check for you gets abolished to the nether reaches of the world. If you can't hire an NPC to come along with you, then you sure as heck shouldn't be able to hire an NPC to decipher / translate / study /etc. something for you. That's ridiculous.
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I think it's complete crap that you can hire NPCs to do your faction missions. If Season 3 is going to be dependent on how successful each faction is at completing their mission, then I sure hope this practice of hiring someone to make a check for you gets abolished to the nether reaches of the world. If you can't hire an NPC to come along with you, then you sure as heck shouldn't be able to hire an NPC to decipher / translate / study /etc. something for you. That's ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous? It makes absolute sense that an NPC won't go on your adventure with you. He's an accountant/baker/cartographer/et. al and wouldn't know the first thing about the pointy end of a sword let alone going adventuring. But sure, if you bring something to them to look at, they sure would look at it for you, for some gold of course.
This actually makes more sense than not.
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Why is it ridiculous? It makes absolute sense that an NPC won't go on your adventure with you. He's an accountant/baker/cartographer/et. al and wouldn't know the first thing about the pointy end of a sword let alone going adventuring. But sure, if you bring something to them to look at, they sure would look at it for you, for some gold of course.
This actually makes more sense than not.
No, that's complete crap. For instance, if you have a Chelish character who needs to complete a mission by making a sleight of hand (but doesn't have ranks in it) check versus perception checks of the ENTIRE party and then you have an Osirian character who doesn't have ranks in linguistics to figure out the special code on a table, who is getting the raw end of the deal when you allow PCs to hire NPCs to make checks for them?
Paying for NPCs to do your faction mission checks is rubbish and needs to be banned if it isn't already. Especially since the PA players earn will affect Society play.
/Not to mention, faction missions are designed that you, on average, only get 4 PA for every 3 scearnios that you do (unless you are the uber skill monkey or play with a diverse group of people with your same faction).
//Unless you can find someone officially saying that this practice is allowed and link it in this thread, I am definitely banning it at tables that I run. This is so cheap it's crazy. I'm glad I haven't had players ask to do this before.
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Until there is an official rule against employing experts to assist with skill checks, as long as it makes sense within the mod, there is no reason to ban it. It's no different than turning to the society to cast a spell for you. You have to spend resources (gp) to get the check and there is no guarantee the check will be succeed. It's like hiring a caster to remove disease.
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No, but you're going to have to bribe the Qadiran to keep their mouth shut every time. When are we going to get a table for that? =D
If they purposely try to ruin it for you, Id say that falls under the 'Dont be a jerk' policy of PFS. Also, you cant pay anything that carries over, so a bribe is kinda limited in what it could be. Also also, even if the Qadiran does speak up, it could then be the Chelaxians bluff vs the Andoran's Sense Motive. Also also also, if there arent any Andorans, I wouldnt even bother trying to be sneaky about it, personally.
I was joking =D
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I have been selective in allowing PCs higher experts for help.
Here is an example of when I did allow it.
An Example I would not allow it.
in other words it is a case by case basis and also location is important.
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Since I know some of the people who GM my Society games read these boards regularly, I want to preface this by saying this is not intended to be a complaint about any person, just a comment on Prestige in Society Play in general. I greatly appreciate all the work they do, I would not be half as good a GM.
A lot of the time how possible (possible, not difficult) it is to complete a mission seems to vary depending on how individual GMs feel about PA in general. Those that dislike the focus on PA tend to read the scenario straightforward "make the roll or no PA" while those that enjoy the faction missions tend to be a bit more lenient. For example: You have a faction mission to deliver a message to the bartender without any of your other Pathfinders noticing. You decide that your sleight of hand score of -2 is probably not going to get the job done. (Side note: perception is so important to everyone that those sleight of hands are the absolute WORST missions.) You also need a painting of the reigning monarch's father for your other PA.
Player to GM X (who likes faction missions): "As the rest of the party leaves, I'm going to hang out and wait until they're all gone." GM X: "OK, you're the last one out the door." Player: "I give the bartender a letter and a stern warning not to discuss it." GM X: "Ding, 1 PA." Player: "And since we've got a few days before we head back, I'm going to hire a relatively old local artist who remembers the old man to paint me a good portrait." GM X (pause for consideration): "It will cost you 150G to get it done in time." Player: "I talk to him about how amazing it would be for him if people outside this town could see his work." (diplomacy) GM X: "He agrees to accept 100G. (Depending on the GM, there might be a profession check done for your artist at this point.) Ding, 1 PA."
Player to GM Y (who hates faction missions): "As the rest of the party leaves, I'm going to hang out and wait until they're all gone." GM Y: "What excuse are you making?" Player: "No excuse, just waiting." GM Y: "Well, make a bluff check versus everyone's sense motive." Player: "Crap, rolled a 1." Player: "Well, since we've got a few days before we head back, I'm going to hire a relatively old local artist who remembers the old man to paint me a good portrait." GM Y: "Nope, sorry. You needed the painting that burned when the alchemist surprised you with that fire bomb in the manor."
The law of large numbers means that this shouldn't make a difference to the "which faction is winning the Prestige fight" next season since the overall distribution of players running into each type of GM should be proportional to faction representation. However it can certainly be frustrating to the player who looks at the next table over and sees someone getting PA for doing exactly what you attempted. (I've been at both tables. Like I said, it balances out in the long run.)
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I really don't understand why the modules give you 3xp but only PA/GP for ~2.5xp.
Fair enough. I thought it was 4 PA for every 3 scenarios, due to how much you get by playing modules.
This is slightly off topic, but it's risk vs. reward. There's no risk (other than wasting time and a chronicle), so the reward is slightly lower. Also there are no permanent consumables used, so the GP is lower for that reason.
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This is slightly off topic, but it's risk vs. reward. There's no risk (other than wasting time and a chronicle), so the reward is slightly lower. Also there are no permanent consumables used, so the GP is lower for that reason.I really don't understand why the modules give you 3xp but only PA/GP for ~2.5xp.
Fair enough. I thought it was 4 PA for every 3 scenarios, due to how much you get by playing modules.
AND modules give you amazing item access compared to appropriate tiered scenarios.
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Uhm... sorry I'm no GM but I do wish to know...as the deadline is coming fast.
I have 5 characters in the Society Legal play, and almost all of them are switching factions to new factions... taking advantage of the 'free' change before Aug 16th proviso. Will the online Reported sessions reflect this change in Faction status and total faction points... or continue to show a split in my faction PA?
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Well I have done that. On all the characters I've played ...but the guys at the site here can't see those sheets in my possession. I told the DM's I was playing with at GENCON that was my intention to switch faction completely... perhaps they did not actually make a note of it? Though the faction rewards for my characters did n show that has prestige for two factions ... I'm more interested in having ALL my prestige converted to the new faction! Or am I wrong about how thats supposed to work?
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I'm more interested in having ALL my prestige converted to the new faction! Or am I wrong about how thats supposed to work?
I believe so. That would be revising events that have already transpired. You didn't earn prestige last year for the Silver Crusade, you earned it for Andoran. It would skew the numbers if that were the case.
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Ok...so what does it mean when the Organized play says...
"...Changing your faction costs a number of prestige points equal to 3 times your character level. Changing your faction does not alter your Fame score."
and
"With the introduction of five new factions in season 3, player characters may change factions one time at no cost to prestige points (though you still loose any Prestige Awards accumulated as part of your old faction). If such a change occurs, it must appear on the character's first Chronicle dated after August 4, 2011. All free factions changed must take place before the official start of season 4 (August 16, 2012)."
Its kinda got me confused... can someone explain it to me please?
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Ok...so what does it mean when the Organized play says...
"...Changing your faction costs a number of prestige points equal to 3 times your character level. Changing your faction does not alter your Fame score."
It means exactly what it says.
Prior to Season 3 you had CPA and TPA. CPA you would spend on stuff, but TPA was your fixed max. If you have 20 CPA and TPA, then spent 16 on a Raise Dead you'd have 4 CPA and still 20 TPA. Prestige and Fame work the same way. Prestige you spend on things, Fame is the total Prestige you've earned over the life of the character.
What you have quoted is the cost to change your faction beyond the free change. So you changed to the Silver Crusade from Andoran for free, but you find after playing some you'd rather be in the Grand Lodge. The first change was free, but to change to the Grand Lodge it would cost you 3x(level) in Prestige to do so. So a 2nd level character would have to spend 6 Prestige, but the total Fame score would be unaffected.
"With the introduction of five new factions in season 3, player characters may change factions one time at no cost to prestige points (though you still loose any Prestige Awards accumulated as part of your old faction). If such a change occurs, it must appear on the character's first Chronicle dated after August 4, 2011. All free factions changed must take place before the official start of season 4 (August 16, 2012)."
Its kinda got me confused... can someone explain it to me please?
If you want to take advantage of the free faction change, you have to do it the first time you play that character after the start of Season 3 but before the start of Season 4. This describes how you make a free faction change (which you have now done). You likely didn't have any Prestige Awards, which can be found and purchased in Pathfinder Society Field Guide, so there's nothing to worry about there.
Hope that helps!