what does everybody think?
and on a side note...how do you generally handle binding?
something that never really gets explained is what keeps the bound outsider from totally murdering you after he agrees to your terms? is there a down side to killing the binder? are they stuck bound on the material plane forever? some outsiders would love the chance to gain a foothold on the material plane wreaking havok and destruction...
i know various outsiders twist orders and commands any way that suits them but still gets the job done. my gm basically rules that if your gonna mess with binding your basically gonna make somebody really mad and you're gonna die...
true names are nice...a little insurance that if you are to die maybe 10 or 20 sealed letters are delivered to the most powerful wizards you know, containing the offending outsider's truename, damning it to servitude until he can wipe out the knowledge of his truename.
I like the idea of binding and crushing an outsider due to your huge charisma, spiritual pressence, ego, etc...
i'm curious to know everyones interpretations/experiences...
or do all DM's hate binders lol
Shameless bump...
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I might help if we knew what 'new binding fluff' you were refering to and where it is located? Is this an Ultimate Magic thing perhaps? If so, then I've not yet got the book (FLGS says it'll be in this weekend... here's hoping!).
More generally, as a DM I love Binding magic - the chance to introduce a new, exotic, NPC full of their own plots and plans, yet tied to the PCs? Great stuff!
If in doubt you can always go the Terry Pratchet route and have the Bindee turn up holding a small wooden stick with a piece of cheese and a piece of pinapple stuck onto it and say, indignantly,
'I WAS AT A PARTY...'
Yeah there is a whole load of binding material in the mastering magic chapter of UM
I like the new binding fluff. I wouldn't say I love it, but it's pretty good. There's some decent crunch in there too, if you look at it as a decent guide.
I like the binding stuff. Plus remember when you summon an outsider (as opposed to calling it via summon monster spells) you can destroy it utterly because it is physically brought to the material plane. Outsider means it's immortal in the sense that it doesn't age, but it doesn't mean they cant be destroyed completely.
Creative Director
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For example, the whole Cheliax taken over by Hell thing... A pit fiend wouldn't talk to house Thrune before they owned the empire. After they had it, the whole empire would be the opening bid...
Here's where I step in and point out that Cheliax hasn't been taken over by Hell at all. It's taken over by the House of Thrune, a human noble family who uses Hell as a sort of "blueprint" on how to efficiently and mercilessly run a nation. They certainly use conjured devils a fair amount as tools and minions, and certainly Asmodeus has taken an interest in the whole thing (to the extent that he's sent a few "advisors" to help Thrune rule, but probably just as many spies to keep an eye on them), but that hardly means that Cheliax is ruled by Hell.
Here's where I step in and point out that Cheliax hasn't been taken over by Hell at all. It's taken over by the House of Thrune, a human noble family who uses Hell as a sort of "blueprint" on how to efficiently and mercilessly run a nation. They certainly use conjured devils a fair amount as tools and minions, and certainly Asmodeus has taken an interest in the whole thing (to the extent that he's sent a few "advisors" to help Thrune rule, but probably just as many spies to keep an eye on them), but that hardly means that Cheliax is ruled by Hell.For example, the whole Cheliax taken over by Hell thing... A pit fiend wouldn't talk to house Thrune before they owned the empire. After they had it, the whole empire would be the opening bid...
In fact my understanding is that if you were to suggest such a thing while in Cheliax you would be accused of treason, blasphemy and several other such crimes for implying that Thrune was not in total control of the situation.
This is part of the reason tieflings are so frowned upon in Cheliax -- they suggest that someone couldn't keep control of themselves and their devils.
Cheliax espouses the idea mortals (humans specifically) are in charge and the outsiders are simply there to cater to their needs, as required by the human that conjured them -- at least that's the propaganda.
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Creative Director
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Like I said, this fluff makes the plotline a "little" unbelievable.
Cheliax, Empire of Devils, PG 3 "Abrogail Thrune struck a bargain with the darkest powers of Hell. Whatever pact she made that night was decisive: the hordes of hell came to her aid, and the house of Thrune ascended to the throne of Cheliax." What did she have that would possibly have been worth a Pit Fiends time, never mind active work by the "hordes of hell", according to this material. To get a pit fiend to pay attention, you'd need to own an empire outright!And Cheliax hasn't been taken over by Hell?
From the Campaign Setting, pg 70 "her regent, General Gorthoklek, same pit fiend who aided her great grandmother.", Pg. 68 "Most citizens alive today know only Cheliax as a willing thrall of Hell"
The written material pretty much disagrees with you.
No, it doesn't. It supports what I just said—that the House of Thrune took over Cheliax, and that they were aided in this by agents sent from or conjured from Hell.
The line about the "hordes of Hell" is sort of hyperbole or propaganda if you will. The Cheliax Player's Guide is partially written from a Player's perspective, after all, and some elements are deliberately confusing or inaccurate at times in those books. If you're a GM, you'd do better to look to the Inner Sea World Guide for more accurate representations of the region.
"Striking bargains with the powers of Hell" is different than "being taken over by Hell."
Having a pit fiend regent/advisor doesn't mean Hell rules the place.
And the fact that citizens might think Cheliax is a "thrall of Hell" doesn't mean they're right. In fact, citizens who say something like that out loud would indeed get taken away by the government and locked in irons.
It is, admittedly, a pretty complicated situation with a lot of subtle shades of gray... but that's what Hell is so good at. In truth, even though Hell doesn't rule Cheliax... it has a LOT of influence over Cheliax via the church and those devil advisors and all those contracts that high-ranking Thrune agents signed. But technically, Hell DOESN'T rule Chelaix.
The complex and subtle elements of the situation are all part of the nation's flavor, in any event; it's a nation where folks who like pedantic arguments and rules lawyering would fit right in! :-)
So is the only thing that makes the outsider do what the are bound to do is
A. Threat of utter destruction
B. Shared interest/amusement
???
So is the only thing that makes the outsider do what the are bound to do is
A. Threat of utter destruction
B. Shared interest/amusement
???
To be fair those are about the only reasons anyone does anything.
Touché
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I always assumed the called creature has to obey if a deal is struck due to the magic of the ritual itself. Just as it can only try to escape once in a 24 hour period, if a reasonable deal is struck, it must perform the agreed upon task. Otherwise, there is nothing stopping that balor you called to do your laundry from killing you instead.
I always assumed the called creature has to obey if a deal is struck due to the magic of the ritual itself. Just as it can only try to escape once in a 24 hour period, if a reasonable deal is struck, it must perform the agreed upon task. Otherwise, there is nothing stopping that balor you called to do your laundry from killing you instead.
I think by definition, having a balor do your laundry is not reasonable. I doubt you could ever come to a suitable arrangement with a balor for such a menial task that didn't begin with "First I suck out your soul."