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When bloodlines were introduced in the Core rules I was pretty happy with them, they introduced some fun new options for sorcerer characters. Granted, not all of them were stellar but they were fun.
When the APG was released and contained a bunch of new bloodlines and a (very) few feats for sorcerers, it was Ok (but not great) because they were good bloodlines and important feats. But ultimately as has been pointed out in the past, bloodlines suffer from diminishing returns and they are exclusive.
Now Ultimate Magic comes out and introduces... more bloodlines! Grrr. Essentially we now have something on the order of 50 choices for what path to choose for new sorcerers but ZERO interesting options for existing sorcerer characters.
Existing Wizards get arcane discoveries, witches - new hexes, summoners - new evolutions, alchemists - new discoveries, bards - masterpieces... Existing sorcerers? Bupkees. I'd go so far as to say if the only character I had in the game was a sorcerer this book is not worth the money. Considering it's called "Ultimate Magic" that's pretty frustrating.
I love this book but as a fan of the sorcerer class this is the one big letdown for me. If Paizo never publishes another bloodline again I won't be disappointed.
Umm... You get... Spontaneous Metafocus? >.>
When bloodlines were introduced in the Core rules I was pretty happy with them, they introduced some fun new options for sorcerer characters. Granted, not all of them were stellar but they were fun.
When the APG was released and contained a bunch of new bloodlines and a (very) few feats for sorcerers, it was Ok (but not great) because they were good bloodlines and important feats. But ultimately as has been pointed out in the past, bloodlines suffer from diminishing returns and they are exclusive.
Now Ultimate Magic comes out and introduces... more bloodlines! Grrr. Essentially we now have something on the order of 50 choices for what path to choose for new sorcerers but ZERO interesting options for existing sorcerer characters.
Existing Wizards get arcane discoveries, witches - new hexes, summoners - new evolutions, alchemists - new discoveries, bards - masterpieces... Existing sorcerers? Bupkees. I'd go so far as to say if the only character I had in the game was a sorcerer this book is not worth the money. Considering it's called "Ultimate Magic" that's pretty frustrating.
I love this book but as a fan of the sorcerer class this is the one big letdown for me. If Paizo never publishes another bloodline again I won't be disappointed.
Whilst not sorcerer-specific, I thought that the Eldritch Heritage line of feats was a huge bone thrown to them, since existing sorcerers are most likely to be able to capitalise on it. Prime choices seem to the the alternate abyssal bloodline (for up to +6 inherent bonus to CON), draconic (for up to +4 natural armour) or fey (for 2 shots at beating SR). Granted it's feat-intensive, but many of these options are well worth the feats, some on them even being in-line with the epic feats of 3.5 DnD.
I do however think that bloodlines should be more sandbox-ish, like the oracle mysteries, and would like to see an expansion in that direction.
It's funny, someone else was complaining that they hadn't written up bloodlines for all the other outsider heritages (Aeons, etc).
The biggest problem with archetypes for Sorcerers is they don't have a whole lot of class features that don't come from bloodlines.
But while you didn't get a lot unique to sorcerers, there sure are a lot of new spells a sorcerer could take.
I do however think that bloodlines should be more sandbox-ish, like the oracle mysteries, and would like to see an expansion in that direction.
What do you mean? I thought oracle mysteries were a set list of options that isn't expanded. Have they added new revelations to existing mysteries?
When bloodlines were introduced in the Core rules I was pretty happy with them, they introduced some fun new options for sorcerer characters. Granted, not all of them were stellar but they were fun.
When the APG was released and contained a bunch of new bloodlines and a (very) few feats for sorcerers, it was Ok (but not great) because they were good bloodlines and important feats. But ultimately as has been pointed out in the past, bloodlines suffer from diminishing returns and they are exclusive.
Now Ultimate Magic comes out and introduces... more bloodlines! Grrr. Essentially we now have something on the order of 50 choices for what path to choose for new sorcerers but ZERO interesting options for existing sorcerer characters.
Existing Wizards get arcane discoveries, witches - new hexes, summoners - new evolutions, alchemists - new discoveries, bards - masterpieces... Existing sorcerers? Bupkees. I'd go so far as to say if the only character I had in the game was a sorcerer this book is not worth the money. Considering it's called "Ultimate Magic" that's pretty frustrating.
I love this book but as a fan of the sorcerer class this is the one big letdown for me. If Paizo never publishes another bloodline again I won't be disappointed.
Whilst not sorcerer-specific, I thought that the Eldritch Heritage line of feats was a huge bone thrown to them, since existing sorcerers are most likely to be able to capitalise on it. Prime choices seem to the the alternate abyssal bloodline (for up to +6 inherent bonus to CON), draconic (for up to +4 natural armour) or fey (for 2 shots at beating SR). Granted it's feat-intensive, but many of these options are well worth the feats, some on them even being in-line with the epic feats of 3.5 DnD.
I do however think that bloodlines should be more sandbox-ish, like the oracle mysteries, and would like to see an expansion in that direction.
Yeah, Eldritch Heritage certainly is a nice choice for Sorcerers. ...and new spells are sweet too.
As to the actual new archetypes: Crossblooded and Wildblooded. I'm sure Wildblooded is entirely boring to you, as its essentially... Even more bloodlines! Crossblooded is an interesting alternative, but the loss of a spell at every level may be too painful to overcome. (This is probably useful for the person going for a 1 level sorc dip; you get 2 arcana. ...but completely screws over the dedicated Sorc.)
@deinol: He means a bunch of abilities that you choose from. An Oracle gets revelations which are more like special bonus feats rather than given specific class abilities at specific levels.
My problem with bloodlines is they don't do much period.
I mean really lets compare to say the oracle:
Sorcerer:
4 bonus feats, bonus spells known, 4 powers, a capstone and an arcana.
Oracle:
6 powers, bonus spells known, extra bonus spells known, a capstone, choice of powers, 'curse', extra usage of powers through feats, extra powers through feats and magic items.
I'm completely leaving the base line out on purpose -- just on class abilities alone the oracle kills the sorcerer -- then the oracle gets extra spells known on top of it, and gets the bonus spells known earlier than the sorcerer does.
Some people will say that's an unfair comparison though -- so lets go with the wizard:
5 bonus feats, better casting stat, 1 school special, 2 school powers, capstone, arcane bond, ability to trade out feats for more powers, feats that allow them to duplicate everything that supposedly makes the sorcerer better as well as magic items that do the same.
Consider for the wizard, spell specialization and greater spell specialization.
Take spell specialization 4 times, then take greater spell specialization once. Now you have four spells that you can spontaneously cast whenever you want. Also you can trade all four of them out at the same time every even level -- as opposed to the sorcerer's ability to trade out one spell at a time every even level.
All the other full spell casters also rip the sorcerer apart.
His abilities are regularly being stolen from him and given to everyone else, on top of everything else the other classes already get.
In fact most of his powers are a complete waste of time -- Another blasting power? Great too bad I can only use it once compared to the flame oracles 3 times a day per power. Oh, claws how quaint -- in case I want to insult the goblins once I'm level 10 right? Because I have such great ability in melee combat I should seek it out to claw people.
It's insulting what has been done to the sorcerer.
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It's funny, someone else was complaining that they hadn't written up bloodlines for all the other outsider heritages (Aeons, etc).
The biggest problem with archetypes for Sorcerers is they don't have a whole lot of class features that don't come from bloodlines.
But while you didn't get a lot unique to sorcerers, there sure are a lot of new spells a sorcerer could take.
Actually lots of new spells benefit prepared casting classes much more than spontaneous classes. Many spells are situation specific, a wizard can afford to learn a spell that's useful on even numbered Tuesdays while a sorcerer cannot.
Also, in general spells suffer quite a bit from diminishing returns.
I do however think that bloodlines should be more sandbox-ish, like the oracle mysteries, and would like to see an expansion in that direction.What do you mean? I thought oracle mysteries were a set list of options that isn't expanded. Have they added new revelations to existing mysteries?
You get to choose your powers, these powers often offer multiple feats or uses of things the sorcerer receives as once per day abilities, the powers you don't get as class features can be received as feats, and you get a 'curse' which gives you great things like blind sight, immunity to exhaustion, disease, or other wonderful abilities.
I actually rather disagree that bloodline do little. Some of them are very drool-worthy. Like I pointed out earlier,
"Prime choices seem to the the alternate abyssal bloodline (for up to +6 inherent bonus to CON), draconic (for up to +4 natural armour) or fey (for 2 shots at beating SR). " And there are at least 2 bloodlines that give you permenant wings eventually.
And then there's the bloodline arcana of the fey bloodline that makes them potentially the best enchanters around, the dream-touched arcana that grants you substantial bonus saves and AC as long as you keep pumping out your best spells (but hey you're a sorcerer, you're going to be doing precisely that in fights where those bonuses matter most), to name a couple.
But yes, I do think that a better way to take the sorcerer bloodlines would have been to include more alternate options for each bloodline power, and rather than present them as an alternate "set", allow you to "mix and match" to create your own.
I for one love the Sorcerer bloodlines and never get tired of seeing more. But I do agree that there a lot less options for a sorcerer you are already playing and would love feats that enhance your bloodline powers. For examples like low-light vision, darkvion, spell like abilities, increased power of limited use powers, extra uses for those 3+cha/day powers, natural armor bonus, tentacles, fairy wings, third eye, see invisible, extra spells known based on your bloodline,etc. Those are just some examples of things i would like to see for feats. Then there is also the pick an choose ability that Oracles get would be awesome.
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Yeah, Eldritch Heritage certainly is a nice choice for Sorcerers. ...and new spells are sweet too.
Why is Eldritch Heritage more appealing to a sorcerer as opposed to a bard or a paladin?
If a bloodline power is interesting to you why wouldn't you take it at first level?
As to the actual new archetypes: Crossblooded and Wildblooded. I'm sure Wildblooded is entirely boring to you, as its essentially... Even more bloodlines! Crossblooded is an interesting alternative, but the loss of a spell at every level may be too painful to overcome. (This is probably useful for the person going for a 1 level sorc dip; you get 2 arcana. ...but completely screws over the dedicated Sorc.)
Actually, Wildblooded was about the only partly redeeming feature of that chapter, essentially it gives the existing bloodlines a few more options.
If the chapter had been Wildblood plus some other options I'd have been happy with it.
Why is Eldritch Heritage more appealing to a sorcerer as opposed to a bard or a paladin?If a bloodline power is interesting to you why wouldn't you take it at first level?
It's not more appealing to a sorcerer than a bard or paladin. Or rather, it's not any less appealing to those other classes. All classes which benefit from a high CHA score benefit. The sorcerer is just one of them.
The Sorcerer-based Eldritch Knight particularly benefits because the bloodline powers from eldritch heritage develop with his character level rather than his sorcerer level. Thus the wisdom would be for a sorcerer to pick his bloodline based on arcana and 1st and 3rd level powers, and then choose his heritage based on higher level bloodline powers.
I'm already thinking of rolling up a dragon-blooded sorcerer-eldritch knight with abyssal heritage. +4 strength from 4 levels of dragon disciple, and another +6 (eventually) from the abyssal bloodline. And some nice natural armour bonus on the side.
I'm already thinking of rolling up a dragon-blooded sorcerer-eldritch knight with abyssal heritage. +4 strength from 4 levels of dragon disciple, and another +6 (eventually) from the abyssal bloodline. And some nice natural armour bonus on the side.
See this is kind of my thing -- anyone can have 4 of the 6 powers the sorcerer gets. It's annoying.
Btw -- I recommend going cross blooded dragon pit touched, with abyssal heritage. That's a +6 to Con +6 to Str and then all the dragon stuff too.
I'm already thinking of rolling up a dragon-blooded sorcerer-eldritch knight with abyssal heritage. +4 strength from 4 levels of dragon disciple, and another +6 (eventually) from the abyssal bloodline. And some nice natural armour bonus on the side.See this is kind of my thing -- anyone can have 4 of the 6 powers the sorcerer gets. It's annoying.
Btw -- I recommend going cross blooded dragon pit touched, with abyssal heritage. That's a +6 to Con +6 to Str and then all the dragon stuff too.
Huh. I guess a Dragon Disciple combines with a crossblooded sorcerer. Interesting. I guess you'd still have to pick your bonus feats from the dragon list, but that's okay. ...but while your stats may be awesome, I'm still not quite sure if that overcomes the crippled spellcasting ability; not only do you lose a spell at each level, but you lost casting levels. ...and would you even be an effective combatant as compared to a fighter? I suppose with dragonform or something? Hrmm.
A sorcerer 12/dragon disciple 8 can never learn a 9th level spell. (You would have 3 9th level spell slots, though.) I guess you can still use metamagic.
I'm already thinking of rolling up a dragon-blooded sorcerer-eldritch knight with abyssal heritage. +4 strength from 4 levels of dragon disciple, and another +6 (eventually) from the abyssal bloodline. And some nice natural armour bonus on the side.See this is kind of my thing -- anyone can have 4 of the 6 powers the sorcerer gets. It's annoying.
Btw -- I recommend going cross blooded dragon pit touched, with abyssal heritage. That's a +6 to Con +6 to Str and then all the dragon stuff too.
Huh. I guess a Dragon Disciple combines with a crossblooded sorcerer. Interesting. I guess you'd still have to pick your bonus feats from the dragon list, but that's okay. ...but while your stats may be awesome, I'm still not quite sure if that overcomes the crippled spellcasting ability; not only do you lose a spell at each level, but you lost casting levels. ...and would you even be an effective combatant as compared to a fighter? I suppose with dragonform or something? Hrmm.
A sorcerer 12/dragon disciple 8 can never learn a 9th level spell. (You would have 3 9th level spell slots, though.) I guess you can still use metamagic.
Yeah never said it would be perfect... but it will go a long way into making you a nasty creature. Besides if you go human and space out those last couple of sorcerer levels carefully you can use the favored class bonus to get some more spells of later level.
Besides what all do you need to cast anyways?
You wouldn't even have to go crossblooded. Just take the Eldritch Heritage feats to get the abyssal ability boost.
You wouldn't even have to go crossblooded. Just take the Eldritch Heritage feats to get the abyssal ability boost.
Sorry Raving you have a fail here -- I specified he's getting three bloodlines worth of benefits:
1. Draconic sorcerer
2. Crossblooded with pit touched.
3. Eldritch Heritage for abyssal.
The idea is with 12 levels of sorcerer and robes of eldritch heritage he would be sorcerer level 16 for his pit touched bloodline (he's really only after the 9th level power) and draconic bloodline of 24. His abyssal heritage will be enough (with or without the robes) to get him the full benefit from his feats.
Meaning he'll have:
+4 Str +6 (inherent bonus) strength
+2 Con +6 (inherent bonus) Con
+7 Natural Armor Bonus
Breath weapon (from his prestige class)
and wings from his pit touched bloodline (or draconic)
60' Blindsense
You wouldn't even have to go crossblooded. Just take the Eldritch Heritage feats to get the abyssal ability boost.
Well, if you want to get the +6 Str and +6 Con from the 2 bloodlines AND get the +4 Str (and +2 Con and Int?) you need the Dragonic Bloodline. Draconic, Pit Touched and Abyssal is what you need to get ALL of these bonuses. (You can't take Eldritch Heritage multiple times, no?)
EDIT: Ninja'd :D
Obviously it's time for bed.
You wouldn't even have to go crossblooded. Just take the Eldritch Heritage feats to get the abyssal ability boost.Sorry Raving you have a fail here -- I specified he's getting three bloodlines worth of benefits:
1. Draconic sorcerer
2. Crossblooded with pit touched.
3. Eldritch Heritage for abyssal.The idea is with 12 levels of sorcerer and robes of eldritch heritage he would be sorcerer level 16 for his pit touched bloodline (he's really only after the 9th level power) and draconic bloodline of 24. His abyssal heritage will be enough (with or without the robes) to get him the full benefit from his feats.
Meaning he'll have:
+4 Str +6 (inherent bonus) strength
+2 Con +6 (inherent bonus) Con
+7 Natural Armor Bonus
Breath weapon (from his prestige class)
and wings from his pit touched bloodline (or draconic)
60' Blindsense
...this would be rather terrifying in a gestalt build. Combine with Paladin. The first level ability of pit touched/infernal (as Ravingdork mentioned in another thread) can give something an evil aura. Follow up with smite! You'd also have 20 BAB as opposed to 12. ...and of course Charisma added to all saves and all of the other fun stuff that goes with.
Of course how you'll justify being Pit Touched and Abyssal and still manage to become a Paladin is beyond me. Interesting RPing to say the least? You probably won't be well-liked by other Paladins. >.>
Anywho, random thought on a variant of the standard Sorc/Paladin gestalt. (Although any gestalt of this and a full BAB class is frightening.)
EDIT: Apparently giving your opponents an evil aura wouldn't exactly allow you to smite. Even if it did, you'd likely lose your Paladin abilities. Oh well. Given that that combo doesn't work, I feel better about endorsing the antipaladin as a good option. Fits in very well with abyssal and pit touched. The perfect BBEG of a gestalt campaign. Give him leadership for good measure. <.<
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I think we're good with bloodlines - there's a zillion of them already.
Note: I think the bloodlines, along with the archetypes, continues to show that Paizo has a strong preference for decisions made at class creation versus later.
I'm not sure who, but someone seems to have it in for prestige classes and similar mechanisms that let you alter your character after creation time.
I mean, we got a new book, Ultimate Magic, with zero prestige classes, yet it has a boatload of options that must be chosen at character creation time.
All told, just in the three core books, we've got:
140 archetypes (including 9 paladin oaths)
46 cleric channel variations
20 druid domains
15 oracle mysteries
47 sorcerer bloodlines (including 20 wildblooded variants)
All told that's almost 270 options for characters - options that can only be chosen at character creation time.
Now let's look what you can do once you've already created your character: 18 prestige classes across the three books.
I think we've got enough character creation options now - let's start having some options for folks who already have characters :)
I love the idea of archetypes, and I do wish there were more. My games rarely get into Prestige Class area, so archetypes allow me to focus on aspects I'd like from early levels. I can't wait for more.
That said, I do understand where 0gre is coming from with the sorceror bloodlines. (Side note: Why don't the new bloodlines have wild-blooded variants?) Sorcerors (and Clerics) kinda get boned in the archetype department due to their lack of class features.
And I wonder if something can be done about that. We know that the Arcane Bloodline is the default one, so perhaps if Bloodlines were treated as archetypes, we could do interesting things. In essence, trade out the powers of the Arcane archetype to get more varied options, perhaps like the Qiqong Monk.
Eldritch Heritage is awesome for everybody, it`s just convenient for Sorcerors because they can get Skill Focus via Bonus Bloodline Feat (Arcana`s Class Skill is Knowledge (any), which conveniently matches all BL`s with any Skill Focus: Knowledge, and many BL`s have a Skill Focus that corresponds to another BL`s Class Skill).
Anyhow, I think it`s fair to say alot of new Bloodlines will not be forthcoming any time soon, Ultimate Magic pretty much covered that base for now, and Paizo`s stated they won`t be doing tons of `character build option` hardbacks in the forseeable future. MAYBE one new Bloodline in and AP here or there, but there`s now alot of room for an AP to introduce another Wildblood option, instead. I agree Wizards relatively got the most out of Ult. Magic, esp. since they can now get Eldritch Heritage themselves.
I would say that if you are playing with the assumption that everything from Ultimate Magic is automatically, or by default, allowed, there is way to much options for magic now. But I think it`s fair to say not everything will be allowed for PFS.
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I think we've got enough character creation options now - let's start having some options for folks who already have characters :)
Existing wizards can take the new arcane discoveries, most of which would be equally suitable for sorcerers. It's pretty baffling that they are wizard only to be honest. All the APG classes have plug-in type design where new options can be dropped in (though frustratingly there are no new revelations for existing Oracles!). Rogues and barbarians have talents and powers that grow with each new release.
There are tons of new options for existing characters, just none that are very exciting for the sorcerer.
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Eldritch Heritage is awesome for everybody, it`s just convenient for Sorcerors because they can get Skill Focus via Bonus Bloodline Feat (Arcana`s Class Skill is Knowledge (any), which conveniently matches all BL`s with any Skill Focus: Knowledge, and many BL`s have a Skill Focus that corresponds to another BL`s Class Skill).
Anyhow, I think it`s fair to say alot of new Bloodlines will not be forthcoming any time soon, Ultimate Magic pretty much covered that base for now, and Paizo`s stated they won`t be doing tons of `character build option` hardbacks in the forseeable future. MAYBE one new Bloodline in and AP here or there, but there`s now alot of room for an AP to introduce another Wildblood option, instead. I agree Wizards relatively got the most out of Ult. Magic, esp. since they can now get Eldritch Heritage themselves.
I guess that's my frustration. Here is the one book where sorcerers should have gotten a bit of love and there is very very little of interest. Though in general I think the spells chapter is fine, I don't see my sorcerer using many of them. I can't see her using any of the feats.
Just flipping through the 'new' bloodlines I get frustrated. Here's a whole new set of elemental based bloodlines. From the core book we have Dragon ones, Elemental ones, do we really need air/ earth/ fire/ water genie based bloodlines too?
I would say that if you are playing with the assumption that everything from Ultimate Magic is automatically, or by default, allowed, there is way to much options for magic now. But I think it`s fair to say not everything will be allowed for PFS.
PFS Additional resources are up and quite a bit is in. Words of Power, Chapter 2, and a few archetypes didn't make it but the majority did.
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I love the idea of archetypes, and I do wish there were more. My games rarely get into Prestige Class area, so archetypes allow me to focus on aspects I'd like from early levels. I can't wait for more.
Well there is this too. There are essentially NO archetypes for the sorcerer. Wildblood is essentially just more alternate bloodlines. Which leaves crossblooded? ACK! essentially mixing and matching two bloodlines (at a ridiculous cost).
We've been begging for a Battle Sorcerer variant since the core book and it could have easily been done as an archetype (even keeping the d6 HD).
I love the idea of archetypes, and I do wish there were more. My games rarely get into Prestige Class area, so archetypes allow me to focus on aspects I'd like from early levels. I can't wait for more.Well there is this too. There are essentially NO archetypes for the sorcerer. Wildblood is essentially just more alternate bloodlines. Which leaves crossblooded? ACK! essentially mixing and matching two bloodlines (at a ridiculous cost).
We've been begging for a Battle Sorcerer variant since the core book and it could have easily been done as an archetype (even keeping the d6 HD).
I am think that all fighting casters(arcane) are supposed to be done through the magus. I don't agree with the idea, but I have never heard of a spontaneous fighting caster being mentioned.
Should have simply called the book what it is:
"Pimping out the sorcerer class abilities for fun and profit."
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Take a look at the Sourcerous bloodstrike feat. It gives the ability to recharge Sorc's abilities if they reduce a target to 0 hit points. Keep in mind its any limited use ability they have as long as you have used it that day...
Thats a lot better then spending a feat to get an additional use.
They really need to add in some blood magic spells for Sorcerors to use.
I was severely disapointed that Blood Transcription didn't have a Sorceror version that allowed Sorcs to temporarily know additional spells ripped from the blood of a fallen caster....
Take a look at the Sourcerous bloodstrike feat. It gives the ability to recharge Sorc's abilities if they reduce a target to 0 hit points. Keep in mind its any limited use ability they have as long as you have used it that day...
Thats a lot better then spending a feat to get an additional use.
They really need to add in some blood magic spells for Sorcerors to use.
I was severely disapointed that Blood Transcription didn't have a Sorceror version that allowed Sorcs to temporarily know additional spells ripped from the blood of a fallen caster....
Look at that feat again -- once per day you can recharge it if you manage to drop an opponent with a damage dealing spell and you must spend an immediate action to do so. Also to be clear the spell has to be a sorcerer spell too -- not a huge deal but if you are say a mystic theurge or using scrolls or what not it is just that bit more limiting.
Yeah for a one time thing out of a feat I would rather simply get another use.
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I am think that all fighting casters(arcane) are supposed to be done through the magus. I don't agree with the idea, but I have never heard of a spontaneous fighting caster being mentioned.
Synthesist summoner is probably the best spontaneous caster capable of stabbing things, bards are decent if you accept that their 'casting' is primarily buffing the whole party.
Crossblooded saddens me because it`s clear that 1-level dippers get the max out of it, while only the Sorcerors who plan on fully progressing the Spell Progression are the ones who really have to suffer it`s heavy penalty. Even those entering something like DD are OK with gimped Casting because they may already plan to be 2nd Tier at that, but that IS a full Sorceror`s bread and butter.
It does baffle me why we don`t see takes on stuff like Battle Sorceror...
I`ve seen talk around that Paizo doesn`t consider HD/BAB altering Archetypes as valid, which is silly. I felt similarly to APG`s bundle of Fighter Variants, none of which REALLY let the Fighter do anything different... Why no skillful Fighter? Paizo ALREADY put one into print for 3.5, why not do an even better version for PRPG? Why no `Fearless` Fighter playing up that iconic, flavorful aspect which is too often forgotten (or swapped out, in the new variants). But they have space for 2 Handed specialists and Archers, pushing the corners out further in areas which already worked GREAT for Fighters. Isn`t Paizo`s stance that crunch should exist to further flavor? What flavor is there?
Anyways... enough negativity. What could Sorcerors use?
How about Bloodline-specific Feats (even if shared by multiple Bloodline`s... the Elemental ones, for instance, or spanning however many BL`s the theme fits), that are GREAT, and more on-par with Oracle Revelations or the better Barbarian Powers? That are added to any relevant Bonus Feat lists, ALONG WITH any other relevant Feats between APG and Ultimate Magic and Combat? How about special abilities that kick in if you know certain series of spells? (to compensate for keeping tightly to a theme with spells known, which hurts sorcerors the most, you get enhanced powers to compensate... ideally in oblique spheres of effect, not just up-front power boosts which are easy enough to come by)
I think that`s the most productive this thread could turn to, what people would like to see Sorcerors become.
I was considering a Dhampir sorcerer with the sanguine bloodline (Dhampirs appear as potential player races in Bestiary 2). He's half-undead and he drinks blood to heal himself-but am shelving the idea because it seems that negative energy affinity, whilst fine for a monster, is a rather severe drawback for a player character since a the cleric who heals the rest of the party would need to specifically prepare inflict spells to heal you.
Conceptually, pretty darn cool, I reckon. Might make an interesting villain, but really only feasible if you can somehow produce negative energy yourself at later levels, when you need more than just the occasional 1d6 healing between fights.
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How about special abilities that kick in if you know certain series of spells? (to compensate for keeping tightly to a theme with spells known, which hurts sorcerors the most, you get enhanced powers to compensate... ideally in oblique spheres of effect, not just up-front power boosts which are easy enough to come by)
This I like but it would have to be fairly specific in execution to keep the wizard's grubby hands off of it.
Perhaps it replaces a spell known at a specific level, but has a permanent effect on all spells of that type? Some examples:
Smoking Embers:
Spell Known equivalent: 6th level
Benefit: When casting a spell with a fire descriptor all who are damaged by the spell must make a fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds.
Blinding Light:
Spell Known Equivalent: 3rd level
Benefit: You may choose to have a spell with the light descriptor force a reflex save on all within its radius -- those that fail this save throw are blinded for 1d6 rounds -- those that make the save are instead dazed for the same length of time.
Numbing Cold:
Spell Known Equivalent: 4th level
Benefit: A creature damaged by a spell with the cold descriptor that you cast must also make a will save or be staggered for 1d3 rounds.
Jolting Shock:
Spell Known Equivalent: 5th level
Benefit: A creature damaged by a spell with the electricity descriptor that you cast must make a fortitude save or be dazed for a number of rounds equal to the spell level of the spell. Each round they are allow a new save throw to negate this effect.
Bolstering Magic:
Spell Know Equivalent: 1st
Benefit: Whenever a creature benefits from a spell you cast with a save throw line of (Harmless) they gain a morale bonus equal to the spell level of the spell on one d20 roll they make before the end of your next turn.
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It does baffle me why we don`t see takes on stuff like Battle Sorceror...
I`ve seen talk around that Paizo doesn`t consider HD/BAB altering Archetypes as valid, which is silly.
I could see a 'battle sorcerer' being useful for touch attack builds even without altering the BAB. Also, it would be very nice for multi class. But I largely agree, the 3.5 Battle Sorc class was pretty decent as written and changing the BAB wouldn't have hurt.
Anyways... enough negativity. What could Sorcerors use?
How about Bloodline-specific Feats (even if shared by multiple Bloodline`s... the Elemental ones, for instance, or spanning however many BL`s the theme fits), that are GREAT, and more on-par with Oracle Revelations or the better Barbarian Powers? That are added to any relevant Bonus Feat lists, ALONG WITH any other relevant Feats between APG and Ultimate Magic and Combat? How about special abilities that kick in if you know certain series of spells? (to compensate for keeping tightly to a theme with spells known, which hurts sorcerors the most, you get enhanced powers to compensate... ideally in oblique spheres of effect, not just up-front power boosts which are easy enough to come by)I think that`s the most productive this thread could turn to, what people would like to see Sorcerors become.
Bloodline specific feats would probably be too specific.
I do like the idea of special abilities that kick in with spell series. In some ways feats like Augment Summoning already do that, but it would be nice if it were expanded or somehow a tiny bit unique for sorcerers.
Sorcerers have very few class abilities other than spells.
Most of a sorcerer's customizability comes from what spells the sorcerer chooses as spells known.
Thus, every time a sorcerer gets a new spell known, that's another ability-choice-fork for the character.
Thus, every new spell added to the sorcerer spell list is another class ability.
We could reduce the sorcerer's spells known by 1 at every other class level and give the class a new ability-choice-fork at every other level (just like rogue talents, hexes, and so on), which would allow for more class customization like with archetypes, but I suspect people would gripe about losing those spells known....
So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.
Sorcerers have very few class abilities other than spells.
Most of a sorcerer's customizability comes from what spells the sorcerer chooses as spells known.
Thus, every time a sorcerer gets a new spell known, that's another ability-choice-fork for the character.
Thus, every new spell added to the sorcerer spell list is another class ability.We could reduce the sorcerer's spells known by 1 at every other class level and give the class a new ability-choice-fork at every other level (just like rogue talents, hexes, and so on), which would allow for more class customization like with archetypes, but I suspect people would gripe about losing those spells known....
So, while I understande 0gre's frustration about new bloodline options for starting sorcerers, the request for "more options for existing sorcerers" is fulfilled by spells, because the sorcerer's limited spell selection means your specific choice of spells is the ultimate pick-your-options class feature.
Or you could give the sorcerer's abilities that are worthwhile. I mean honestly the oracle outshines the sorcerer on every level when it comes to class features -- and I honestly don't believe for a second that somehow the oracle's spell list is inferior to the sorcerer's spell list.
I know I'm harping here, and I'm not really trying to be rude, it just seems like any time this comes up the answer received from developers is, "Sorcerer's spells known are their class features."
It simply doesn't hold up for me. It is apparently not true for the oracle, wizard, witch, druid, cleric, bard, summoner, inquisitor, or any other class -- why should it be true of the sorcerer?
The sorcerer receives fewer bonus feats, fewer class features, and worse baseline statistics than anyone else in the game. That simply isn't right.
Even the 2/3 casters (bard, summoner, and inquisitor) regularly have the same spells of as the sorcerer available at the same time if not sooner in addition to their class abilities.
I don't see how "their spells known are their class options" is anything but a cop out, especially after giving access to their one unique feature to everyone else.
The bard has a total spells known of 40, while the sorcerer has 43 before bloodlines, 52 after. The oracle has 61.
I wouldn't mind the supposed versatility of spontaneous casting if the sorcerer actually had a choice on what to cast of his highest level when he gets the spell level. As it stands now it's "Oh I'm versatile -- I can choose any spell I want to cast in this spell level... so long as it is always this spell, or one of lower level."
The oracle (yes again) has three spells to choose from as soon as they gain a new spell level. Why? Because it was recognized in the APG that only having one spell of your best level stinks.
It would be nice to see the lessons learned to be passed on to the sorcerer is all. No it won't be pretty, but yes it needs to be done.
Sorcerers have very few class abilities other than spells.
Except for the powers they get at levels 1, 3, 9, 15 and 20 and the bonus feats they get at levels 7, 13, and 19, of course. That's eight things they can switch out, about the same number of things to switch out as a wizard.
Sorcerers have very few class abilities other than spells.Except for the powers they get at levels 1, 3, 9, 15 and 20 and the bonus feats they get at levels 7, 13, and 19, of course. That's eight things they can switch out, about the same number of things to switch out as a wizard.
I'm not quite sure that's a fair comparison. Those 8 things are tied heavily together by a theme, and I'm sure its a challenge to come up with archetypes that are "theme agnostic."
Straight up saying "Instead of your 9th level power, a FOO sorcerer receives BAR" seems like a huge cop-out.
maybe do something like this;
give alternate abilities for each of the bloodlines.
for example, take the draconic bloodline. then list some alternate abilities that a sorcerer can pick that replaces the regular list powers. so give like 3 or 4 bloodline powers that can be taken in place for your 1st bloodline power, which would be claws. you could even get away with providing 2 or even 1 alternate ability.
or you could list alternate bloodline abilities and the level in which you can take them in place of a regular bloodline ability and just list above it which bloodline can pick that, kind of how the spell lists are presented before the specific rules for the spells, and above the ability how each spell says which characters can take them.
you can also give alternate bloodline arcanas that may be taken instead of the normal ones.
i think, as a sorcerer player, that this would be a very nice option, so long as the options are worth it.
and maybe some abilities that make a blasting sorcerer more worth while to play, such as adding a d(whatever) to your damaging spells, or that they cap out 1 die more (instead of capping at 15d6, you cap at 16d6, etc). something similar to that would be nice.
Straight up saying "Instead of your 9th level power, a FOO sorcerer receives BAR" seems like a huge cop-out.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but that's how most of the oracle archetypes in Ultimate Magic work.
Straight up saying "Instead of your 9th level power, a FOO sorcerer receives BAR" seems like a huge cop-out.You're entitled to your opinion of course, but that's how most of the oracle archetypes in Ultimate Magic work.
I would've sworn those said "A FOO can take..." rather than "must".
Point taken and point retracted.
Sorcerers have very few class abilities other than spells.Except for the powers they get at levels 1, 3, 9, 15 and 20 and the bonus feats they get at levels 7, 13, and 19, of course. That's eight things they can switch out, about the same number of things to switch out as a wizard.
I'll bow out of the thread with this:
I didn't design the sorcerer class or the oracle class, and I'm not commenting on which is better. I'm just saying that the sorcerer has plenty of places where you can customize your abilities, far more so than a fighter or rogue. And if you allow sorcerers to swap their powers and feats independently (regardless of the bloodline), you may as well just open up all of the sorcerer abilities into a common pool and let people pick whatever they want for their sorcerer instead of having those abilities associated with various bloodlines—which means yet again all sorcerers will end up pretty much the same, like they were in 3E.
I'll bow out of the thread with this:I didn't design the sorcerer class or the oracle class, and I'm not commenting on which is better. I'm just saying that the sorcerer has plenty of places where you can customize your abilities, far more so than a fighter or rogue. And if you allow sorcerers to swap their powers and feats independently (regardless of the bloodline), you may as well just open up all of the sorcerer abilities into a common pool and let people pick whatever they want for their sorcerer instead of having those abilities associated with various bloodlines—which means yet again all sorcerers will end up pretty much the same, like they were in 3E.
I do thank you for your time -- while I understand this isn't your 'fault', 'problem', or even issue. I appreciate your comments as they show someone is listening and thinking on this, even if they do not agree with my position, which is about the most I really can ask for.
Why not give sorcerers the option of swapping spells known for permanent passive powers? Something like reserve feats, but gained through spells known instead of feats?
Actually, upon further reflection I can agree that sorcerers don't necessarily need a bunch of non-bloodline archetypes, but I also agree with Ogre that it's a bit sad that wizards get a list of 10 wizard-only feats (a.k.a. "arcane discoveries") to choose from, but sorcerers only get one sorcerer-only feat.