Hey guys,
I'm currently playing through the Legacy of Fire campaign and am playing as a dual wielding halfling fighter at level 4.
My stats are as follows:
Str: 13
Con: 14
Dex: 20
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 9
As you can see, I'm mainly a dextrous fighter and am using my Dex bonus for my off hand attacks (my primary uses strength as it's a Bastard Sword).
I'm the party leader, but the monk who's with us overpowers everyone. I think the guy who created him called him a Zen archer and as it stands, he hardly ever takes damage and can usually kill everything before any of the other party members even get a hit in.
I'm fairly new to pathfinder so wondered if you could suggest any ways of improving my character to actually stand a chance of equalling the monk at my current level (which is 4).
The DM/GM only allows the Pathfinder Core rulebook + APG. When assigning stats, he gives us I think either 10 or 12 points (judging by my stats it's 12), and we can assign them however we please, which leads me onto my next (and last) question:
If Isaac dies (my Halfling), I wanted a really strange but good character, so thought up the idea of a human female baseball bat (greatclub) wielding drunk barbarian cleric.
The idea is to be good at both close and long ranged (via magic) combat, and at the same time use my cleric abilities to boost my AC and attack abilities up.
I was thinking 12 levels Barbarian and 8 levels Cleric, but although the idea sounds good to me, both another player and the DM said it sounds like a stupid idea.
Can anyone prove them wrong by suggesting ways of actually making a good character based around this please? I like to be different. :)
Thanks very much and have a great week!
I have to agree that this build is less than optimal to put it politely. First of all a Halfling is at a severe disadvantage in combat due to small size and lower STR. Second you are multiclassing a full caster and worse having the levels of cleric be the lower. Third this combination is probably more M.A.D. (Multi Ability Dependant) than any thing I have seen. You will need good STR, DEX, CON, WIS, and CHA.
Anyone who tries to do everything ends up doing nothing well. Figure out what you want to do and concentrate on that.
It seems you are focused on playing a Halfling so a couple of things I would suggest that may work better. Go for a Sorcerer with the Draconic blood line and shoot for a Dragon Disciple. Most of the time you stay back and attack with spells, but if they get close you grow claws and can attack.
Another option would be to go for a Druid. Wild Shape into a large animal and attack. You could even dip into Barbarian for a couple of levels to get Rage.
I have to agree that this build is less than optimal to put it politely. First of all a Halfling is at a severe disadvantage in combat due to small size and lower STR. Second you are multiclassing a full caster and worse having the levels of cleric be the lower. Third this combination is probably more M.A.D. (Multi Ability Dependant) than any thing I have seen. You will need good STR, DEX, CON, WIS, and CHA.
Anyone who tries to do everything ends up doing nothing well. Figure out what you want to do and concentrate on that.
It seems you are focused on playing a Halfling so a couple of things I would suggest that may work better. Go for a Sorcerer with the Draconic blood line and shoot for a Dragon Disciple. Most of the time you stay back and attack with spells, but if they get close you grow claws and can attack.
Another option would be to go for a Druid. Wild Shape into a large animal and attack. You could even dip into Barbarian for a couple of levels to get Rage.
Ah, well the problem with that is that we already have a party member who's doing just that; Playing a Dragon Born sorcerer who's going for Dragon Disciple.
My idea with the Barbarian Cleric was to get light armour to begin with (+4 AC) and have cast Mage Armour on myself before getting in close, and then later on, grabbing Bracers of Armour and boosting my AC with amulets or rings.
I was going to put my stats along the lines of:
Str: 15 (would be starting off at level 4 currently, so 1 extra stat point))
Con: 10
Dex: 12 (Have a +2 bonus for being human)
Wis: 16
Int: 10
Cha: 12
Though I've never used a Cleric before, only a barbarian so I don't know how well the above would work. I can't recall if Clerics rely more on Wisdom or Intelligence, but think it was Wisdom. :/
What would you suggest in terms of Cleric and Barbarian level instead? More Cleric and less Barbarian, or more Barbarian and less Cleric?
I had a look at the domains for the Cleric (Besmara would be my Deity) and you need to be level 8 for almost all of them, and the things I wanted to get for the Barbarian side of things need you to be a max of level 12. So that's why I figured it might be best to go Barb for 12 and Cleric for 8.
With a Barbarian you have to have a good CON. The Extra CON from rage is a double edge sword, because you lose the HP when you are knock out. What that means is that if someone brings does enough HP to knock you out you will be in the negative. You may want to consider going with a Rage Prophet from the APG. It is a multiclass Oracle, Barbarian prestige class. This is probably the closest to what you are looking for.
Note sure where you are getting the stats from. If it is a point buy then none of them make since. What you have seems to be a 17 point buy.
A Half Orc would also be a good race for this concept. The ferocity works very well for a class that can heal.
With a Barbarian you have to have a good CON. The Extra CON from rage is a double edge sword, because you lose the HP when you are knock out. What that means is that if someone brings does enough HP to knock you out you will be in the negative. You may want to consider going with a Rage Prophet from the APG. It is a multiclass Oracle, Barbarian prestige class. This is probably the closest to what you are looking for.
Note sure where you are getting the stats from. If it is a point buy then none of them make since. What you have seems to be a 17 point buy.
A Half Orc would also be a good race for this concept. The ferocity works very well for a class that can heal.
I did actually look at Rage Prophet, but the whole idea with an Oracle confused me a little.
Do they have abilities that can allow you to boost your AC and Attack Bonus/Damage up, as well as let you heal yourself and others? If so, I'll have to look into it a little more, but boosting my close range melee up means more to me than just sitting back and doing damage from afar, otherwise there would be little point in this class.
How do you reckon I should go about it? Also, thanks a lot for the suggestions. :)
As for the stats, I think we're given 12 to play with from the start, so I'll try to show you how I'm working it out:
Str: 10 + 4 points = 14
Con: 10
Dex: 10
Wis: 10
Int: 10 + 6 points = 16
Cha: 10 + 2 points = 12
Then + 1 onto Strength for reaching level 4, making 15.
Then Dex + 2 as humans get to add + 2 to any one ability they choose.
New total:
Str: 15
Con: 10
Dex: 12
Wis: 16
Int: 10
Cha: 12
So I have 15 points that have been added on, instead of 12.
The Battle Oracle can chose Weapon Mastery mystery, and gain some advantages with a specific weapon. They are a spontaneous divine caster that uses the same spell list as a cleric, but have a limited number of spells. For a beginning player this will actually be easier.
You have a limited number of spells know, but can do not have to memorize them. For example at 1st level you know 2 cleric spells, and cure light wounds. So at 1st level you would be able to cast a total of 4 1st level spells (3 + bonus for CHA). You can cast any combination of the three spells you know.
As you go up in levels your mystery gives you some bonus spells to be added to the list of spells known.
Your GM must be using a nonstandard point buy.
The Battle Oracle can chose Weapon Mastery mystery, and gain some advantages with a specific weapon. They are a spontaneous divine caster that uses the same spell list as a cleric, but have a limited number of spells. For a beginning player this will actually be easier.
You have a limited number of spells know, but can do not have to memorize them. For example at 1st level you know 2 cleric spells, and cure light wounds. So at 1st level you would be able to cast a total of 4 1st level spells (3 + bonus for CHA). You can cast any combination of the three spells you know.
As you go up in levels your mystery gives you some bonus spells to be added to the list of spells known.
Your GM must be using a nonstandard point buy.
Ah right, and does the oracle allow you to cast a spell as well as making a single attack in the same round?
I think I'm liking the idea of a Drunken Brute Barbarian Oracle who can reach 4 level spells, so if I could cast a spell on myself as well as attacking in the same round, I have a feeling this class might work out alright.
It's awesome to know that I'd have access to the Cleric spell list, even as an oracle (which also gives you different abilities to that of a Cleric).
Plus, looking at the Oracle class, it looks like I won't need to worry about intelligence or wisdom, and instead just focus in charisma, then for the Barb side of things, Str, Con and Dex. Though Con won't matter as much with the Barb's huge life point rolls.
As for the point system, he doesn't let us buy points at all. They're just what we're given from the start, and then we're allowed 1 point every 4 levels.
Casting Mage Armor and also wearing Light Armor is silly because the bonuses don´t stack,
they are both of the Armor type. Casting Shield is a great idea if you can, though, likewise with Mirror Image or similar abilities.
The main problem, more than stat splitting per se, is that Rage is mutually exclusive with Casting normally. You need to take a specific Rage Power that allows Casting while in Rage (though you lose all benefits of Rage), or drop Rage and become Fatigued (though there are strategies to minimize this occurance, either thru only Casting before battle, or immunities to Fatigue). If you plan on taking that Rage Power anyways, I would say consider going with Barbarian / Oracle (Battle is good, others work as well, Life Oracle is pretty damn effective at Healing and let´s you do it mid-combat without stress), heading into the Rage Prophet PrC. The thing with that PrC is you need to decide which of Barbarian / Oracle you are going to favor, as going 50/50 is going to be less effective. Rage Prophet doesn´t advance your Class Level for Powers/Mysteries with Class Level Pre-Reqs, but you can take the Feat Extra Rage Power / Mystery to gain new ones that aren´t above your (Barb/Oracle) Class Level (as you noticed, good stuff tends to kick in at 8th level so getting either your Barb or Oracle level up to that will help you).
Also, consider a Paladin/Oracle build if Lawful Good is OK with your character concept, CHA to Saves is very nice, and going with Battle Oracle you can be very effective in Melee. If you really want to go with Halfling, I would take the ´Lucky Halfling´ Feat at some point (by mid-level, e.g. 8th), it lets you use your own Saves to Roll some-body else´s Save... People will probably stop complaining when you start sharing your Halfling Pally/Oracle Saves with them :-)
It sounds like you´re not all that expert at the rules, yet are attracted to complicated combo builds. Be aware that simple builds, either single-class, or with only minor dips (1-3 levels), are MUCH MUCH easier to be very effective with. If you want a connection to a God, you don´t need to be a Cleric, just play that up in RP. There are even mechanical effects for non-Cleric adherents in Gods + Magic if you really want that. But I would say that Battle Oracle itself lets you rock in Combat with abilities on par with full-BAB classes, while still doing the full caster bit. Maybe the 2-3 level Pally dip would synergize well, as I mentioned, but beyond that I think just stick with Oracle... it´s harder to f~%& up IMHO.
Casting a spell is normally a standard action. Most of the time you will spend a round or two bringing up your spells, and then attack. Chose spells that boost your combat ability like Divine Favor. This is going to mean your stats will need to be Adjusted. I would go for STR, CHA (Oracle uses CHA instead of WIS), CON, DEX. INT and WIS are not important, you could even lower the WIS.
Probably go for 4 levels of Barbarian and 1 level of Oracle. Go for the Battle Oracle to get Enlarge so you can be a large raging buffed melee monster.
Extra Rage powers and Extra Revelations are a good feats to look at.
Boost the CON from what you are planning or you may be very short lived.
Casting Mage Armor and also wearing Light Armor is silly because the bonuses don´t stack,
they are both of the Armor type. Casting Shield is a great idea if you can, though, likewise with Mirror Image or similar abilities.The main problem, more than stat splitting per se, is that Rage is mutually exclusive with Casting normally. You need to take a specific Rage Power that allows Casting while in Rage (though you lose all benefits of Rage), or drop Rage and become Fatigued (though there are strategies to minimize this occurance, either thru only Casting before battle, or immunities to Fatigue). If you plan on taking that Rage Power anyways, I would say consider going with Barbarian / Oracle (Battle is good, others work as well, Life Oracle is pretty damn effective at Healing and let´s you do it mid-combat without stress), heading into the Rage Prophet PrC. The thing with that PrC is you need to decide which of Barbarian / Oracle you are going to favor, as going 50/50 is going to be less effective. Rage Prophet doesn´t advance your Class Level for Powers/Mysteries with Class Level Pre-Reqs, but you can take the Feat Extra Rage Power / Mystery to gain new ones that aren´t above your (Barb/Oracle) Class Level (as you noticed, good stuff tends to kick in at 8th level so getting either your Barb or Oracle level up to that will help you).
Also, consider a Paladin/Oracle build if Lawful Good is OK with your character concept, CHA to Saves is very nice, and going with Battle Oracle you can be very effective in Melee. If you really want to go with Halfling, I would take the ´Lucky Halfling´ Feat at some point (by mid-level, e.g. 8th), it lets you use your own Saves to Roll some-body else´s Save... People will probably stop complaining when you start sharing your Halfling Pally/Oracle Saves with them :-)
It sounds like you´re not all that expert at the rules, yet are attracted to complicated combo builds. Be aware that simple builds, either single-class, or with only minor dips (1-3 levels), are MUCH...
I was thinking of getting moment of clarity for casting during rage (if need be), but I was hoping to be able to stand back and boost myself up first, and then run in and deal mass damage to whatever I can whilst my spells are active.
As for being a Halfling, that was just me asking how to improve my current two weapon fighter who is in fact a half-ling who has a 12 stealth, 12 acrobatics, 8 climb and 6 Profession of Gladiator. It's just a fighter was something I didn't read up on (I was randomly assigned the class), so I didn't realise you mainly needed intelligence for things, so I made an all out Dex character with a bonus of 1 in Strength, that's not bad, but isn't good compared to the Zen Archer Monk who keeps making jokes about trying to sell me off, and because he's so powerful I'm not going to try and force him to stop. I just asked, and he said no....oh and everyone hates me right now as in the last battle I was unaware of everything due to a spell, spoke garbage and unwillingly attacked my team mates and got a critical on the monk with the crit card disembowel (dealing 16 damage, 4 Con damage and 4 Bleed damage) and got attacked by the magical creature who was the source of it.
I ended up turning into a Were-leopard, killing the only healer in the group (with an AC of 24) whilst everyone slept, and I was unaware of everything. :/
As for a Paladin Oracle, I really do like the sound of that, but it's not what I'm going for unfortunately, so I'll save that class for another time.
What I'm going for is a female human specifically and she must use the equivalent of a baseball bat whilst boosting her own stats up (I don't like relying on other party members as they always moan).
If you play videogames, think Bad Girl from No More Heroes. Hence the drinking as well. :D
Regarding how much I know of the game; I know enough to be able to play and work things out enough to give myself an idea of what I want to achieve, but this is my third campaign I've been in (previous ones didn't last long - only up to character level 3 before I died), so this is the first time I've reached level 4, and I'm always jumping between classes with new characters, so never get a good grasp of one particular classes potential.
Though, that doesn't mean I multi-class as I think if my current character dies, this will be the very first time I've ever multi-classed. Ha, but yea I'm no pro. I'm more into my game consoles, and play this just for something relatively fun to do on a Saturday with a few friends. :)
Casting a spell is normally a standard action. Most of the time you will spend a round or two bringing up your spells, and then attack. Chose spells that boost your combat ability like Divine Favor. This is going to mean your stats will need to be Adjusted. I would go for STR, CHA (Oracle uses CHA instead of WIS), CON, DEX. INT and WIS are not important, you could even lower the WIS.
Probably go for 4 levels of Barbarian and 1 level of Oracle. Go for the Battle Oracle to get Enlarge so you can be a large raging buffed melee monster.
Extra Rage powers and Extra Revelations are a good feats to look at.
Boost the CON from what you are planning or you may be very short lived.
Ah, thanks a lot for that. I just had a quick skim over the Battle Oracle and it seems to cover everything I'd like, but my only concern is I don't actually know how many levels Barbarian and Oracle I should go.
I mean I think I'm going to forget Rage Prophet as I just read up on things about that, and supposedly it makes you suck at being a Barbarian and Spell Caster, more than it helps you, so I'm pretty much swayed towards a sheer Oracle Barbarian build with no extra classes or prestiges.
I'll focus on Str, Cha, Con and Dex like you suggest, but if I wear light armour, I'm not sure what penalties I'll get for that, but the problem is I need some defense if I'm going to be up in their face, whether I cast spells to boost myself up or not. Shame Mage Armour doesn't stack with Light Armour to be honest. :/
I'm also liking the idea of Life Force/Life Stream (can't remember which one it was) at Caster Level 5, as I know party members will more than likely die sooner or later, so it'd be good to bring them back.
My idea with the Barbarian Cleric was to get light armour to begin with (+4 AC) and have cast Mage Armour on myself before getting in close, and then later on, grabbing Bracers of Armour and boosting my AC with amulets or rings.
I know this was pointed out but im not sure you noticed, mage armor, regular armor and bracers of armor don't stack.
My first bit of advice for the halfling is don't use a non finessible weapon in a dex based build. And I agree with barb/oracle instead of cleric/barb.
My idea with the Barbarian Cleric was to get light armour to begin with (+4 AC) and have cast Mage Armour on myself before getting in close, and then later on, grabbing Bracers of Armour and boosting my AC with amulets or rings.I know this was pointed out but im not sure you noticed, mage armor, regular armor and bracers of armor don't stack.
My first bit of advice for the halfling is don't use a non finessible weapon in a dex based build. And I agree with barb/oracle instead of cleric/barb.
Yea, I know the Bracers don't stack with Armour as I already had that discussion with the DM before creating my current character, but thanks anyway. :p
I've got a Bastard Sword in my primary as I wanted to do more damage, so as it stands I have my primary with an attack bonus of 4 and my off hand with an attack bonus of 8, yet my primary does 1d8 damage and my off hand 1d4, so they kinda level each other out. I'm going to try and build them into individual weapons that do very different things, but I'm still contemplating turning my off hand into a Sun Sword so it acts as a bastard sword as well as a short sword.
For my primary I'm saving up to put Thunder and Lightning effects on it, as well as Speed and I think it was called Defense. If I don't get the Sun Sword I was playing with the idea of putting speed, defense and Brilliant Energy on my off hand.
As for the Oracle and Barb build, I think I'm settled on that, but would just really like to hear everyone's opinions on how many levels I should take in each.
I think a Drunken Brute Battle Oracle could be a lot of fun. :D
Actually I would recommend going for the Rage Prophet for what you want. True your sheer combat ability will be less than a single classed Barbarian, and your spell casting will fall behind a dedicated Oracle, but the blend is fairly good. The Key is the that the levels increase both your Rage Powers and Mysteries. Take the talent Magical Knack to boost your caster level and then what you end up with is a character who can buff themselves up to an absurd level. You can use feats to pick up extra rage powers and extra mysteries if you want and the abilities on both go up.
I would recommend going with 5 levels of Barbarian 1 level of Oracle, then the next 10 into Rage Prophet. Take the Weapon Mastery revelation to get 3 free feats, Moment of Clarity, Guarded Life, and Renewed Vigor rage power. This will allow you to heal yourself 3d8+1 HP once a day, and to convert 15 HP from lethal to nonlethal if brought below 0 HP.
If you want sheer combat ability do not multiclass at all. After 15th Most of the levels should probably be Barbarian. You will be down only -4 on your BAB and will be casting 4th level spells.
Actually I would recommend going for the Rage Prophet for what you want. True your sheer combat ability will be less than a single classed Barbarian, and your spell casting will fall behind a dedicated Oracle, but the blend is fairly good. The Key is the that the levels increase both your Rage Powers and Mysteries. Take the talent Magical Knack to boost your caster level and then what you end up with is a character who can buff themselves up to an absurd level. You can use feats to pick up extra rage powers and extra mysteries if you want and the abilities on both go up.
I would recommend going with 5 levels of Barbarian 1 level of Oracle, then the next 10 into Rage Prophet. Take the Weapon Mastery revelation to get 3 free feats, Moment of Clarity, Guarded Life, and Renewed Vigor rage power. This will allow you to heal yourself 3d8+1 HP once a day, and to convert 15 HP from lethal to nonlethal if brought below 0 HP.
If you want sheer combat ability do not multiclass at all. After 15th Most of the levels should probably be Barbarian. You will be down only -4 on your BAB and will be casting 4th level spells.
So by the end of it I should have a level 9 Barb, Level 1 Oracle and a Level 10 Rage Prophet with Rage Powers and decent Spells. :D
Sounds pretty good, and I was going to get Good for what ails you, and Ground Breaker I think it was called, as rage powers to go with my Drunken Brute area.
Are there any particular spells you'd recommend? I don't know if any members of the party will be able to Resurrect later on. I mean the Sorcerer might be able to, but if not, is it worth me going more than one level Oracle, just so I can do 5th level spells with that thing that allows me to cast higher levelled spells?
Also, the +2 Trait Bonus that Magical Knack gives, does that mean I can cast spells 2 levels higher than I should be able to? It doesn't really explain the +2 very well.
Thanks a lot. :)
Divine Favor is always good for a 1st Level spell. Since it is a luck bonus it will stack with most things.
Aid would also work well with this build.
Bulls Strength Works well and stacks with the rage for a total of +8 STR.
Protection from Energy is something I would also take
Your spell casting will not match a full caster, but no multiclass will ever do that.
If you want the extra spell casting level that would not be a bad idea, but I would look at Righteous Might. You should be concentrating on spells to buff yourself instead of utility spells.
Also don't forget about scrolls and wands. Even if it is not on your list you can still use these items.
Divine Favor is always good for a 1st Level spell. Since it is a luck bonus it will stack with most things.
Aid would also work well with this build.
Bulls Strength Works well and stacks with the rage for a total of +8 STR.
Protection from Energy is something I would also takeYour spell casting will not match a full caster, but no multiclass will ever do that.
If you want the extra spell casting level that would not be a bad idea, but I would look at Righteous Might. You should be concentrating on spells to buff yourself instead of utility spells.
Also don't forget about scrolls and wands. Even if it is not on your list you can still use these items.
Ah, I was looking at getting Bulls Strength (as well as Greater if I can), but they're awesome suggestions, so thanks a lot!
As for getting myself up to caster level 5, as Rage Prophet automatically stacks with Barbarian and Oracle, if I reached level 10 in Rage Prophet, would that not automatically ramp me up to caster level 5, or would I need to go 6 levels Oracle and then use the +2 Trait Bonus to ramp it up to 5th caster level?
Also, I can't seem to find a list of Scrolls anywhere, otherwise I'd check them out. Plus, if I held a wand as well as a GreatClub, wouldn't I need two weapon fighting? I'm guessing I can cast spells with my primary weapon out, but just not mid swing, haha.
Sorry for all of the questions, it's just I'm actually getting a decent idea of what to do now, so just wanted to run over the finer details.
It sounds like you`re confusing Caster Level with Spell Level.
Caster Level Boosts like the Trait you mentioned DON`T give access to any new spells...
there are a few things which have Caster Level as a Pre-Req (like Improved Familiar Feat)
but for the most part Caster Level determines the EFFECT of spells that scale, e.g. Fireball does damage per CASTER LEVEL.
Caster Level also affects Concentration Checks and Spell Resistance Checks.
There is no `list of Scrolls` because that would be duplicating the Spell Lists which are already given for each Class. So look at the spell lists for each Class, and there should be Scrolls available for all of them (hypothetically, you have to get them from somebody). If they`re not on the Cleric/Oracle Spell List (remember your Mystery adds extra spells), you just need UMD to use spells `off your list`. Fortunately, being a CHA-based Caster helps alot here, so by mid-levels you should be able to reliably UMD off-list scrolls - That`s a good time to buy an Ioun Stone of +2 INT keyed to the UMD skill, as it instantly maxes that skill. Also note that Caster Level is used to determine if you need to roll to use Scrolls of Spells ON YOUR SPELL LIST, so any bonuses (like Rage Prophet grants when Raging and using Moment of Clarity) help you here - This allays concerns about access to higher level spells like Resurrection, you can buy (or get the group to buy, as by default if you are using it, you are helping somebody else out) a scroll or 2 for `when you need it`.
I still recommend you go with Rage Prophet. If you go Barb5/Oracle1 then go into Rage Prophet, I would suggest taking 3 more levels or so of Barbarian, say after getting 4 levels of Rage Prophet, start alternating Barbarian and Rage Prophet until you are 8th level in Barbarian. That opens up alot of the more powerful Rage Powers as you noticed. Also look at other Barbarian Class Abilities you can gain at each level, possibly via Archetype... I like Pugilist for even if you DON`T plan on being a Grappler, it gives you great defenses vs. getting Grappled!
I`m not actually sure whether Rage Prophet gives you the Mystery Spells Known from your Oracle mystery or not... It says `you gain spells known... as if you had also gained a level in Oracle` (re-organizing and re-wording to be relevant here), which isn`t 100% clear if that means only plain vanilla spells known or ALL spells known, including Mystery...? I guess I would default to the latter given the RAW, meaning you don`t need the 2nd level in Oracle to get Enlarge Person, and get all Mystery Spells as you gain access to those Spell Levels.
Anyways, here are some great Abilities of Rage Prophet:
This means Rage Powers / Revelations you have that increase in power at high levels DO increase in level, you just can`t grab Powers/ Revelations with higher Class Level PRE-REQ`S.
So this doesn`t start out too amazing, but eventually it get`s very nice (the bonus stacks with almost everything), and importantly IT HAPPENS AUTOMATICALLY WHEN YOU ENTER RAGE, i.e. no separate action. The Swift Action Ghost Touch is also convenient.
Mostly out-of-combat divination spells, See Invisible will be most useful in combat... AFAIK ALL of these count as on your spell-list which means you can use scrolls of these more easily even if you don`t have that Spell Level normally.
OK, this is awesome obviously, although it`s kind of wierd since Clarity of Mind is the big Pre-Req for the PrC in the first place. At high levels, having a Rod of Quicken Metamagic on your belt that you can Draw as part of Movement, Swift Cast the Heal on yourself, and switch back grips to your Big Bat before attacking with your Standard Action can be a nice tactic. (if they can`t Full Attack you back, e.g. you also took Knockback so you can Bullrush them with this one attack)
Even though your Caster Level seems to fall behind, these abilities mean you will Defensively Cast better than anybody and your Caster Level on spells cast in Rage will equal or eventually exceed Full Casters, not to mention your DCs equalling or exceeding them because you will be stacking two stats (CHA and CON) together.
This is very nice, no longer just Cure spells, but ANY self-buff... Again, wierd since Clarity of Mind was the big Pre-Req for the PrC, but definitely very useful.
That is getting to be quite a big competence bonus now, hm?
And immediate action Ghost Touch means AoO-time...
So there`s definitely tension between advancing full speed in Rage Prophet to get all these Abilities, and picking up a few more levels in Barb so you can get those 8th level Rage Powers. You can eventually get both, of course.
To get 5th level spells you would need a few more levels of Oracle. 3 levels of Oracle plus the 7 extra casting levels from Rage Prophet will give you access to 5th level spells. You will need a CHA of at least 15 and will only have 1 5th level spell. I would recommend Righteous Might as the best choice for what you are looking for.
Magical Knack only increases the caster level for the effects of the spells. You would still only be able to cast spells based on the normal caster level, but for example the bonus from Divine Favor would be as if your caster level were two higher.
I am not sure if the Rage Prophet gives you the bonus spells. I would think that since you do get the normal spells that you should get them as well. Talk to your GM and find out what he says. If you do not get it that may be a reason to take the second level of Oracle.
The progression of levels is always kind of tricky. On the one side you may want to get a specific ability sooner, but on the other hand it depends on what is going on in the campaign. If it were me I would probably go for 4 or 5 levels of Barbarian and then 1 or 2 levels of Oracle. This is going to depend on if you get the bonus spell. Enlarge person is worth the level.
After that I would probably go straight Rage Prophet. The fact that both your rage powers and mysteries are going up is what makes it more valuable then better rage powers. Some of the abilities of the Rage Prophet are hard to resist. The ability to cast your buff spells while raging is probably the strongest one. But also getting Greater Rage at 10th is nice.
So there`s definitely tension between advancing full speed in Rage Prophet to get all these Abilities, and picking up a few more levels in Barb so you can get those 8th level Rage Powers. You can eventually get both, of course.
That's very true, though I was thinking if Rage Prophet counts as your Oracle and Barbarian levels going up, would reaching a level 10 Rage Prophet on top of a level 5 Barbarian and Level 1 Oracle not mean I'm in fact a level 11 Oracle, and level 15 Barbarian?
It makes sense for it to work like that, as it's fusing Oracle and Barbarian together then, but I'm probably wrong as everything's too good to believe in this game. :p
Also, I think you can choose freely between any Barbarian rage powers, but you can't choose freely between any Oracle powers, as you have to select a specific mystery.
Still, if I got Channel Positive energy and had the +2 Trait for casting, would that mean I have a much more powerful version?
I'm not too sure about Caster levels and spell levels. I mean I thought Caster levels were half of your normal level, so if I had a level 1 Oracle, it would seem impossible to get any decent self buffing spells. Just depends on whether the prestige class counts as both classes going up or not.
So there`s definitely tension between advancing full speed in Rage Prophet to get all these Abilities, and picking up a few more levels in Barb so you can get those 8th level Rage Powers. You can eventually get both, of course.That's very true, though I was thinking if Rage Prophet counts as your Oracle and Barbarian levels going up, would reaching a level 10 Rage Prophet on top of a level 5 Barbarian and Level 1 Oracle not mean I'm in fact a level 11 Oracle, and level 15 Barbarian?
It makes sense for it to work like that, as it's fusing Oracle and Barbarian together then, but I'm probably wrong as everything's too good to believe in this game. :p
Also, I think you can choose freely between any Barbarian rage powers, but you can't choose freely between any Oracle powers, as you have to select a specific mystery.
Still, if I got Channel Positive energy and had the +2 Trait for casting, would that mean I have a much more powerful version?
I'm not too sure about Caster levels and spell levels. I mean I thought Caster levels were half of your normal level, so if I had a level 1 Oracle, it would seem impossible to get any decent self buffing spells. Just depends on whether the prestige class counts as both classes going up or not.
Your caster level is determines your spells. Every level of Oracle is 1 casting level. Look at the chart on Rage Prophet and it tells you when you gain a caster level. Basically you gain 7 levels of caster for 10 levels of Rage Prophet.
Magical Knack is a special case it allows you to cast the spells at a higher level but does not give you more spells. So for example if you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 round per level it will last an extra 2 rounds. Also any bonus derived from the caster level will also be higher.
Enlarge person is worth the level.
I'm guessing that would improve my AC as well as my weapon damage then?
So as I'm going to be basing my Baseball Bat on a Great Club that does 1d10 damage, what would that damage be for a large creature? I'm guessing 1d12 but not too sure.
Your caster level is determines your spells. Every level of Oracle is 1 casting level. Look at the chart on Rage Prophet and it tells you when you gain a caster level. Basically you gain 7 levels of caster for 10 levels of Rage Prophet.
Magical Knack is a special case it allows you to cast the spells at a higher level but does not give you more spells. So for example if you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 round per level it will last an extra 2 rounds. Also any bonus derived from the caster level will also be higher.
Ah, so what I should be doing is grabbing 3 levels of Oracle, 10 of Rage Prophet, and 7 of Barbarian to make this possibly the most effective I can.
As long as no spell surpasses level 5 (when I'm able to cast level 5 spells), I can prepare and cast anything within those boundaries I guess.
Also, how you guys work out stats, because I always thought you're assigned 10 points, but for some reason think we're always given 12. So if it's 12, would you recommend I give myself these base stats, or something else:
Str 14
Con 14
Dex 14
Cha 14
Wis 8
Int 10
I could always go with this instead:
Str 16
Con 12
Dex 14
Cha 15
Wis 7
Int 10
That's very true, though I was thinking if Rage Prophet counts as your Oracle and Barbarian levels going up, would reaching a level 10 Rage Prophet on top of a level 5 Barbarian and Level 1 Oracle not mean I'm in fact a level 11 Oracle, and level 15 Barbarian?
You aren`t a higher level Oracle or Barbarian, BUT THE POWERS YOU HAVE scale AS IF you were, i.e. Rolling Dodge´s bonus gets bigger, your Oracle Curse, etc. But you can`t take Powers with Pre-Req of Barb/Oracle level if that is above your actual (not Rage Prophet boosted) Barb/Oracle Class Level.
Also, I think you can choose freely between any Barbarian rage powers, but you can't choose freely between any Oracle powers, as you have to select a specific mystery.
There is also a concept in APG known as Rage Totems which are groups of Rage Powers, and once you pick one group you can`t pick any others... But they are indeed less central to Barbarians than Oracles, you don`t NEED to pick ANY Totem Powers at all.
Still, if I got Channel Positive energy and had the +2 Trait for casting, would that mean I have a much more powerful version?
Nope, +2 Caster Level affects your CASTER LEVEL for SPELLS, not other Class Abilities. There is a separate Feat that boosts DC for Channel Energy.
I'm not too sure about Caster levels and spell levels. I mean I thought Caster levels were half of your normal level, so if I had a level 1 Oracle, it would seem impossible to get any decent self buffing spells.
You´re mixing up what is a functional description for SOME Casters (prepared Casters) for a formula that applies hard across the board. For prepared Casters who don`t multi-class or lose Caster Levels (i.e. Class Level = Caster Level), you can say (Class Level +1) / 2 = Highest Spell Level they have access to, except that the max spell level that exists is 9th Level Spells, so they just get more of those for their top Class Levels. But not every Caster even has `Full` (9 Spell Levels), and Spontaneous Casters have a different, slower progression of gaining SPELL LEVELS (compare Wizard vs. Sorceror tables, Sorceror is delayed), so that formula doesn`t hold solid for everybody, like I said.
When Rage Prophet advances SPELL CASTING, it gives +1 to Caster Level and progresses your spells per day and access to Spell Level to the next stage in the Casting Chart you are using (Oracle in this case). Spell Levels are used to divide spells into basic spells like Enlarge Person (1st), more powerful ones like Fireball (3rd), or REALLY powerful ones like Wish (9th). The MAX Spell Level is 9th (not all Classes get 9th level spells), but there ISN`T a MAX Caster Level, though `NORMALLY` it ends at 20th (WITHOUT OTHER BONUSES TO IT, which are easy enough to find if you want). Like I explained before, CASTER LEVEL affects SCALING EFFECTS of Spells, and Concentration and Spell Resistance checks, it DOESN`T affect Spell DC`s or their Spell Level. I recommend reading all the relevant rules, it`s not all the complicated after going thru them over a nice cup of coffee.
For your stats, I would recommend starting with only a 12 CHA.
Realistically you won`t PRIMARILY be using lots of offensive spells that rely on Enemies failing Saves vs. the DCs, and you won`t be gaining higher SPell Levels for many levels anyways, leaving you plenty of time to grab Magic Items that increase your CHA. You could even start with an 11 CHA, but it`s not much difference point-buy-wise, and 12 gives you an extra 1st Level Spell Slot. A 14 gives you an extra 2nd Level SPell Slot, but you can esily get that with a Magic Headband once you can actually CAST 2nd Level Spells. Having Good STR, Good CON, and decent DEX is going to help your basic schtick, MELEE COMBAT. I personally woulnd`t dump WIS like you did, since it`s important for Saving Throws vs. Magic... INT could be dumped I guess... I don`t usually dump those stats that much, but I usually play with higher point buy, at least 15 and usually 20.
Ultimately you want to make race/class choices that complement one another. A halfling fighter, while they do indeed exsist, is not an optimal race/class combination. If you're going for flavor and your GM is not a sadist then by all means, go for it. But if your GM doesn't know how to adjust encounters and balance encounters for the power level of the party, then you could be in trouble there.
Same basic principle goes for multiclassing. You want to choose classes that complement each other. A barbarian/cleric never crossed my mind to tell you the truth but certainly a suboptimal combination. If you're going to play as a cleric mostly then I would recommend a level or two of fighter, just to boost your combat effectiveness and/or survivability. Fighter is a better choice just from a feat selection standpoint imo. With the right feat you can stand back and snipe with a ranged weapon, run in for a direct heal when necessary or channel when necessary but at least you won't be standing around waiting for someone to get hit so you can heal.
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Actually it looks like standard high-fantasy 20pt-buy, with a 1pt error on your part. (This halfling build, not counting the 4th-level bump, requires STR:15(-2), CON:14, DEX:18(+2), INT:7, WIS:10, CHA:7(+2) -- which adds up to 21pts; meaning, unless you raised WIS from 9 to 10 with 4th level bump, there's an initial error.)Str: 13 ... Int: 7
Con: 14 ... Wis: 10
Dex: 20 ... Cha: 9... The DM/GM only allows the Pathfinder Core rulebook + APG. When assigning stats, he gives us I think either 10 or 12 points (judging by my stats it's 12)
As you can see, I'm mainly a dextrous fighter and am using my Dex bonus for my off hand attacks (my primary uses strength as it's a Bastard Sword).This is lame. Drop that useless piece of garbage and fight with two light-weapons (if you're going TWF) or switch your Exotic Weapon Proficiency from bastardsword to Elven Curve Sword if you want to be a badass Power Attacker who uses Weapon Finesse to hit with a huge sword held in two hands.
I'm the party leader, but the monk who's with us overpowers everyone. I think the guy who created him called him a Zen archer and as it stands, he hardly ever takes damage and can usually kill everything before any of the other party members even get a hit in.
@#&% Jet Li -- get out of my fantasy game. <slit throat while sleeping>
Seriously though, this other player has built a WIS-jacked monk and is exploiting his Wisdom score for both armor class and attack bonus with ranged weapons. It's a competent build (especially if he didn't nerf his INT -- monks need skills).
I'm fairly new to pathfinder so wondered if you could suggest any ways of improving my character to actually stand a chance of equaling the monk at my current level (which is 4).
Easy: 1. Find a druid. 2. Commit ritual suicide on his stone altar while he prepares Reincarnate. 2. Roll well on your rez dice and come back to life as my Valkyrie barbarian (getting her stats may require a little cheating). 3. Down a bottle of booze. 4. Rage. 5. Kill monk.
But more usefully: As you are fighter, you can quickly retrain suboptimal feat-choices at even-numbered fighter levels. There are basically only two ways for a halfling to equal the damage-output of an optimized-for-combat larger race, and that is focus on large threat-range weapons (18-20) w/Power Attack, and/or by being in classes which grants lots of additional damage due to class abilities (rogue, paladin, etc).
IMO, the real problem with this character build is that it looks like it's zero fun to play out of combat: You're short, and have neither the skills nor the brains nor the personality to make you even slightly endearing to the people you meet. ....I suppose that's not needed in a "hack 'n slash" game, but you need some skills even in H&K. E.g., Acrobatics, Stealth, Disable Device ...oh, crud, right: fighters don't get those, so your massive halfling synergies with a DEX:20 go completely to waste.
Basically, your character is Belkar with a bastardsword who can't sneak-attack or think his way out of a proverbial paper bag -- you have none of Belkar's strengths (rogue skills and sneak-attack) and all of his weaknesses (stupid, slow, and uncouth). Eventually the monk, or probably anyone else, will "take over" your erstwhile role as "party leader".
So, uhm, yeah: make a new character. Chalk this one up to live and learn.
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If you're still "new" to Pathfinder, and don't want to cast spells because spell-casting is annoying and requires half-memorizing absolutely tons of crap:
(...at 1st level...)
Dwarf "meatwall" fighter ... Hit-points: 17 ... Faction: Taldor
STR:14 ... INT:12
DEX:12 ... WIS+14 ... always advances CON; always takes +1HP/favored class
CON+17 ... CHA-10
Feats: Toughness, Additional Traits
Traits: Breadth of Experience, Militant Merchant, Heirloom Weapon, Steel Soul
Low-level equipment: MW Dwarven Waraxe, MW full-plate, MW heavy shield, assorted MW tools enhancing perception, appraise and engineering.
Result: Will have 136 hit-points at 12th level. Will have three times the skill-points of min/max non-human fighters, and +2 to +5 bonuses to INT and CHA skills due to higher attributes and trait bonuses. Is likable and attractive compared to the average foul-tempered, smelly dwarf or monk (dwarf, or otherwise). Will constantly tease said smelly monk about the steamy interracial assignations he's constantly missing out on because he's so smelly and stupid.
Will subsequently take feats like Step Up, Hold Still, and Fleet of Feet, and acquire Boots of Speed. (Multiclassing barbarian or cleric with Travel domain is doable if cheesy.)
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As for the stats, I think we're given 12 to play with from the start, so I'll try to show you how I'm working it out:
Str: 10 + 4 points = 14
Con: 10
Dex: 10
Wis: 10
Int: 10 + 6 points = 16
Cha: 10 + 2 points = 12Then + 1 onto Strength for reaching level 4, making 15.
Then Dex + 2 as humans get to add + 2 to any one ability they choose.
Wow...that's an atypical point-buy method since it greatly encourages bleeding-edge stat-picking (since costs don't escalate with increments above 13 as they normally do).
Do you get 2pts for dropping an 8 to a 7, or is it stricting 1-for-1?
Assuming 18 for a pre-racial cap, he could make an 18,18,16,8,8,8 stat-array with such a build scheme; that'd be equivalent to 36pts by-the-book. Layer that into high-goblin rogue and you're looking at STR:14(16-20, DEX:24(18+4), CON:8(yeah, like getting hit is how a character with this much AC ever dies), INT:8(still got 7 skills/level!), WIS:20(18+2 = Hello, rogue/monk or rogue/cleric multiclass!), CHA:6(8-2).
Make one of those, and your DM will eventually re-think his point-buy rules.
As for the stats, I think we're given 12 to play with from the start, so I'll try to show you how I'm working it out:
Str: 10 + 4 points = 14
Con: 10
Dex: 10
Wis: 10
Int: 10 + 6 points = 16
Cha: 10 + 2 points = 12Then + 1 onto Strength for reaching level 4, making 15.
Then Dex + 2 as humans get to add + 2 to any one ability they choose.Wow...that's an atypical point-buy method since it greatly encourages bleeding-edge stat-picking (since costs don't escalate with increments above 13 as they normally do).
Do you get 2pts for dropping an 8 to a 7, or is it stricting 1-for-1?
Assuming 18 for a pre-racial cap, he could make an 18,18,16,8,8,8 stat-array with such a build scheme; that'd be equivalent to 36pts by-the-book. Layer that into high-goblin rogue and you're looking at STR:14(16-20, DEX:24(18+4), CON:8(yeah, like getting hit is how a character with this much AC ever dies), INT:8(still got 7 skills/level!), WIS:20(18+2 = Hello, rogue/monk or rogue/cleric multiclass!), CHA:6(8-2).
Make one of those, and your DM will eventually re-think his point-buy rules.
Lots of replies!
Yea, he has a strict 1 for 1 rule, and I have a 7 for Int as he (the DM) said it shouldn't effect my character too much, other than making him a tiny bit dimmer than others. I still get him talking to people in the group, but recently I've kept him silent as I really wouldn't mind killing the monk (and almost did with my unwilling critical on him, plus turning into a were-leopard and actually downing him with a single hit), but the player would go ballistic as he's against rolling up new characters, and it would probably be suicide for me to willingly try it.
If a 12 point off the bat system is far too low (god knows where he got the idea from, as I thought most people has 20 point systems), then one day I might do the above. :p
Thing is, Barbarians are my favourite class in the game (fighters are actually pretty cool too), but I really wouldn't mind making a broken character who's mega powered....essentially what the monk is, but of a different class so I'm being original and not copying.
Quandary - Thanks a lot for all of the explaining on the caster level front.
Why I was asking if it meant my Channels would be of a higher Caster Level was because they're not actually my class abilities. They're not in the Battle Oracle list, only the Life Oracle list, so I was going to choose them separately from the spell list.
If I only need a 12 in Charisma, maybe I could just put those extra 2 or 3 points into Dex to boost my AC up, otherwise the next option would be Str.
Grummik - Thanks for the tip. :)
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Ultimately you want to make race/class choices that complement one another. A halfling fighter, while they do indeed exsist, is not an optimal race/class combination.Agreed. (Halfling rangers and halfling paladins, however, are very good.)
Same basic principle goes for multiclassing. You want to choose classes that complement each other. A barbarian/cleric never crossed my mind to tell you the truth but certainly a suboptimal combination.
Mwahahahaha! ....I think barb/cler is a very strong combination provided synergistic domains are selected.
Ultimately you want to make race/class choices that complement one another. A halfling fighter, while they do indeed exsist, is not an optimal race/class combination.Agreed. (Halfling rangers and halfling paladins, however, are very good.)Same basic principle goes for multiclassing. You want to choose classes that complement each other. A barbarian/cleric never crossed my mind to tell you the truth but certainly a suboptimal combination.Mwahahahaha! ....I think barb/cler is a very strong combination provided synergistic domains are selected.
Well, if an Oracle Barb is on par with that, I'll be pretty happy.
I like the fact you get Mysteries and Rage Powers at the same time (once you're actually in Rage Prophet). That's what seems to make it a good idea to actually go into Rage Prophet.
Mainly I'll be going for self boosting spells, but I'll still grab some healing spells, and a couple of damaging spells might not hurt.
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About that Holy Bully build; click my name and go to the Katrina character -- that's it (just starting). After 2nd-level, I'll have to decide if I want to continue cleric/holyV or instead opt for fighter with just a smattering more cleric and barbarian levels. Both are compelling. (The Precocious Spellcaster trait is unnecessary, and I dropped it.)
To the OP from someone who is on their third Combat Cleric build having retired the previous two for ineffectualness (at 4th and 6th levels), skip the multiclass thing until you're far more comfortable with the rules. You'll try to do everything and fail miserably! You'll rarely get the chance to cast before the fight starts, so if it's not a free action or swift action to cast a certain spell you may as well not have it.
Go with a straight barbarian, take weapon focus, dodge, iron will, power attack and furious focus, maybe cleave or lunge and so on, along with all the alcohol related powers and feats you can find. If you start with an 18 Strength you'll make the Zen Archer look incompetent by comparison and it'll be a simple character to play and fun.
At first level, 18 strength with a mwk greatclub, raging (strength up to 22), with weapon focus - as she should be good with her chosen weapon - plus power attack you'll be at +8 to attack and doing d10+12 damage.
Half elves can look very similar to humans and get a +2 racial bonus vs enchantments, plus an optional +2 which stacks if you swap out skill focus (in the APG racial options) to keep your mind your own. They're also immune to Ghoul paralysis which is useful, so they're a fine alternative.
Have you friend go over spell selection with you...
(I`m not getting into that level of detail)
And have them also help revisit these selections when you gain the opportunity to automatically re-learn spells known every few levels in Oracle and Rage Prophet (I`m not sure if technically Rage Prophet repeats the spell re-learning text, but I`m pretty sure that is Rules as Intended).
And for weapons, an Earthbreaker is going to be more effective than Great Club.
To the OP from someone who is on their third Combat Cleric build having retired the previous two for ineffectualness (at 4th and 6th levels), skip the multiclass thing until you're far more comfortable with the rules. You'll try to do everything and fail miserably! You'll rarely get the chance to cast before the fight starts, so if it's not a free action or swift action to cast a certain spell you may as well not have it.
Go with a straight barbarian, take weapon focus, dodge, iron will, power attack and furious focus, maybe cleave or lunge and so on, along with all the alcohol related powers and feats you can find. If you start with an 18 Strength you'll make the Zen Archer look incompetent by comparison and it'll be a simple character to play and fun.
At first level, 18 strength with a mwk greatclub, raging (strength up to 22), with weapon focus - as she should be good with her chosen weapon - plus power attack you'll be at +8 to attack and doing d10+12 damage.
Half elves can look very similar to humans and get a +2 racial bonus vs enchantments, plus an optional +2 which stacks if you swap out skill focus (in the APG racial options) to keep your mind your own. They're also immune to Ghoul paralysis which is useful, so they're a fine alternative.
I really love that idea as well. Only thing is, regarding multi-classing; The best way I learn is by actually doing something, and not just reading over things.
I take things in better when I can actually see the problems at hand. It's kind of like punishment teaches me. If I fail at something in particular, I should know where I'm going wrong, so the only way I'm going to learn is by actually trying it.
Also, are you explaining that as a level 1 character with +12 damage or a level 4 character?
Problem is I like both this option and the other one, but if I'm going to boost myself up with the Rage Prophet, surely it won't matter if I take a full round to cast something on myself, as when it's actually in effect, I should be okay. It's just getting to that point. I mean I'm not planning on standing next to the enemy all of the time, but more standing back with the Sorcerer, boosting myself up and then moving in.
Quandary - He's not allowing anything other than APG and the Core guide. That also includes supplements unfortunately. :(
I asked if I could have a really dumbed down Angel at some point, and said I'd be willing to work it out with people online, but he just said no repeatedly as apparently they're too powerful to dumb down.
I disagreed but then I think as long as you stay within the rules of something and use other things as guidelines (and are willing to put the effort into it), it's fine.
Fights are usually over in 3-4 rounds. If you spend a couple of rounds powering up you’ll miss half of it, and your fellow adventurers will not be amused that you’re ‘effectively’ sitting it out. If you can buff everyone with something like bless or haste that’s great, but if it’s a self-only buff you’re probably better off just getting stuck into the fray. Unless you know there’s about to be a fight and have time to prepare without giving your presence away by the noise of casting, then spells won’t help you until the fight is over.
The d10+12 is 1st level, raging and with power attack. Rage puts 18 strength up to 22, which x1.5 for 2-handed = +9 damage, then add 3 from power attacking 2-handed. The power attack damage goes up every 4 BAB, so d10+15 at 4th, d10+18 at 8th etc. Furious Focus is worth taking at 3rd as the attack penalty from power attack gets worse as the damage bonus goes up. FF negates it on your first attack each round, meaning you’re more likely to hit.
The only reason not to take Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus and Cleave etc is if you want to use combat manoeuvres, or if the character concept has other things it wants to do more. For example alcohol related feats may be more interesting if that’s what you want to do. If you can find a way to drink potions as a move action then that would be cool (although wielding a 2-handed weapon would make that a little difficult). The drunken brute archetype lets you do it for example, so drinking a potion of shield as a move action then readying an attack as a standard action would be very effective – if a little expensive (50gp a potion)… In theory you can let go of your weapon as a free action, drink, and then switch back to 2-handed as another free action, and most GMs should allow that. The problem is – where did the potion come from? If you were already holding it then you weren’t using the weapon 2-handed to start with, and drawing it from a backpack or belt pouch is at least another move action. You might find it easier to use a basic club so you’re still armed whilst juggling potions. Its d6 instead of d10, but d6+12 fighting 2-handed is still going to hurt! If you attack whilst holding a potion you’d only be fighting 1-handed though, so it would be d6+8 instead. You’d need to read through the other feats and rage powers to see if there’s a solution to not having enough hands. You could go Barbarian 10, Summoner 10, and at 20th level grow another pair of arms to do the drinking with, but that’s not really worth waiting for as you may never get to 20th. Forget I mentioned it!
Talking of reading things through, no-one minds if you learn whilst playing (we all do it), but you owe it to the rest of the group to read all the spells, powers, feats and class abilities you have. If there’s one person at the table who should know how your character works, it’s you! I would suggest getting a grip with melee characters first and then trying a straight cleric or oracle in the future. Once you’ve got the hang of them both then try to combine them and experiment. You can do some interesting things multiclassing, but they will usually be less effective than specialists. One option of course is to give yourself a 12 or 13 in a casting stat: Wisdom boosts Will saves, Perception and Survival so is a good one, and then at 13th level if you decide you suddenly want to be a cleric you can.
Fights are usually over in 3-4 rounds. If you spend a couple of rounds powering up you’ll miss half of it, and your fellow adventurers will not be amused that you’re ‘effectively’ sitting it out. If you can buff everyone with something like bless or haste that’s great, but if it’s a self-only buff you’re probably better off just getting stuck into the fray. Unless you know there’s about to be a fight and have time to prepare without giving your presence away by the noise of casting, then spells won’t help you until the fight is over.
The d10+12 is 1st level, raging and with power attack. Rage puts 18 strength up to 22, which x1.5 for 2-handed = +9 damage, then add 3 from power attacking 2-handed. The power attack damage goes up every 4 BAB, so d10+15 at 4th, d10+18 at 8th etc. Furious Focus is worth taking at 3rd as the attack penalty from power attack gets worse as the damage bonus goes up. FF negates it on your first attack each round, meaning you’re more likely to hit.
The only reason not to take Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus and Cleave etc is if you want to use combat manoeuvres, or if the character concept has other things it wants to do more. For example alcohol related feats may be more interesting if that’s what you want to do. If you can find a way to drink potions as a move action then that would be cool (although wielding a 2-handed weapon would make that a little difficult). The drunken brute archetype lets you do it for example, so drinking a potion of shield as a move action then readying an attack as a standard action would be very effective – if a little expensive (50gp a potion)… In theory you can let go of your weapon as a free action, drink, and then switch back to 2-handed as another free action, and most GMs should allow that. The problem is – where did the potion come from? If you were already holding it then you weren’t using the weapon 2-handed to start with, and drawing it from a backpack or belt pouch is at least another move action. You might find it...
Hmm, that makes a lot of sense, so thanks for typing up so much and going over it for me!
I once had a female Dragonborn Sorceress called Drakaria who was immune to STD's, so if I didn't like someone, I'd charm them and then sleep with them, giving them the STD and sealing their fate. However, she's still living in an underground room somewhere as I never continued after a certain point, due to another player causing problems.
So I guess I've had a little experience with a magic user, but only slightly.
So what I think sounds like the best idea is to save the Oracle, Barbarian and Rage Prophet for future reference (say after I've gotten used to magic, as I'm pretty familiar with melee classes), and just go Drunken Brute with the mental damage of a Greatclub. Then if I need a potion of shielding or something, I could hopefully have a decent enough AC/Life points to take a drink of it mid combat (dropping my weapon, and pulling it out to drink in one round) and know that attacks won't pose too much of a problem for me.
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Meh, best defence is a good offence. Besides, rage prophet will give you better saves than barbarian/cleric.
Rage Prophet is a BAB0 PrC which requires Oracle, which is Domain-less BAB0 base class without fast Fort advancement and sorc-like spell acquisition. As a barb1/cler1 with Travel domain to ignore difficult terrain and +10Move, Strength domain to memorize Enlarge Person, one other spell, and leave the third slot open -- which will give me ANY 1st-level divine spell in the game if take 10 minutes. I could have a 50' move, +2 fort-save vs your barb1/orac1 or +4 vs orac2, and am swinging a 20' reach weapon. If I don't dump my CHA, Channel Smite starts racking up the damage if I decide to go more rather than less cleric. If I go Holy Vindicator, that's a full-BAB PrC. Holy Vindicator's annoying feat requirement is less worthless than Oracle's requirement of the thoroughly worthless Moment of Clarity rage-power (which requires at least two levels of barbarian, an annoyance if you'd rather tuck in a level of fighter).
1st level of Rage Prophet is "dead": "A rage prophet’s class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of his rage powers" -- can it be any more useless for a barb2/orac4/RP1 whose only rage-power is Moment of Clarity? 1st level in Holy Vindicator grants Vindicator’s Shield, which is bloody awesome.
Cleric is a "dipping" class; Oracle isn't. If you decide that advanced spellcasting isn't your thing and switch to Figh8 after barb1/(orac1 or cler1), dipping cler1 is way, way better.
Okay, it's taken me a while, but I think if I've done everything right, this is the build I've chosen to go with:
Female Barbarian - Drunken Brute
Raging Drunk - Replaces fast movement
Intimidate: +4 for being larger than the enemy
Half-Elf:
+2 Perception
+2 on any Ability
Class feat - Skill Focus Intimidate
Feats:
Weapon Focus Great Club
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Dodge
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital strike
Intimidating Prowess
Toughness
Critical Focus
Rage powers to get:
Level 2 - Roaring Drunk
Level 4 - Renewed Vigor
Level 6 - Boasting Taunt
Level 8 - Internal Fortitude
Level 10 - Staggering Drunk
Level 12 - Come and Get Me
Level 14 - Knockback
Level 16 - Overbearing Advance
Level 18 - Reckless Abandon
Level 20 - Guarded Life
Stats:
Str 18
Con 13
Dex 14
Wis 8
Cha 11
Int 7
This should hopefully give me a decent amount of life and decent intimidate abilities as well as an incredible amount of damage (that's why I've gone with every stage of the Vital strikes) and maybe okay starting armour, although I think I'll only have a base AC of 16.
AC wise I'm working out 17 as it'll be +4 armour from Chain Shirt, +2 from my Dex and +1 from Dodge a few levels later. I can use my mid combat drinking to my advantage with potions of shielding. This is fine until I get the bracers of armour I guess, plus an amulet and ring of AC, and I might even save up for the defending weapon ability as well as thundering and speed.
Hopefully I've optimised this quite well.
CC, the best drunken-rage power is Good for What Ails You. A quickdrawn swig cures 90% of save-or-suck effects until the encounter is over. (You'll puke you guts out then, but who cares?)
I can't see how you can quickdraw a swig of alcohol, as the quickdraw feat only lets you quickdraw a weapon.
The reason why I didn't take the feat is because even if you succeed, the effects still effect you after combat.
I just hope Reckless Abandon stacks with Power Attack. I don't see any reason why you can't do both at the same time. :/
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I just hope Reckless Abandon stacks with Power Attack. I don't see any reason why you can't do both at the same time. :/
It does -- just realize that you have to take many levels of barbarian (or rage prophet) to really get a lot out of it, whereas with PA you just need BAB. (It's a lightened versions of 3.5's Shock Trooper.)
I have a couple of suggestions. One Vital strike is only going to give you a slight boost in damage because it only multiplies the base damage of the weapon, but only allows one attack per round. By the time you get it you have multiple attacks. So each time you pick up the feat it gives you an average of an additional 5.5 points of damage at the cost of forgoing all other attacks. Improved Critical would increase the chance of doubling your damage from 1 in 20, to 1 in 10. Also feats like Cleave and great cleave allow you to get extra attacks when you move so may be better.
Also you are focused on Intimidate which is fine but you are not doing anything with it. Look at the feat Dazzling Display. It allows you to as a full round action to intimidate everyone within 30 feet who can see you. I would also take intimidating powers before skill focus because your starting STR without rage is going to give you a +4 instead of the +3. When you rage the bonus will be even higher. You may not even need Skill focus if you are maxing out intimidate. I would also look at taking the rage power intimidating glare.
Guarded Live should be taken early. Its real propose is to keep you alive after your rage stops. Remember the HP for raging are not temporary HP so you are going to be deep into the negative if you are knocked out. After about 7th level being knocked out is fatal. With Guarded life on the average you are ok until 18th level with the exception of 15th level. Without it you are dead. Renewed Vigor and Guarded Life can safe your characters life. Since you have to actually roll for renewed vigor this roll will be do or die.
I just hope Reckless Abandon stacks with Power Attack. I don't see any reason why you can't do both at the same time. :/It does -- just realize that you have to take many levels of barbarian (or rage prophet) to really get a lot out of it, whereas with PA you just need BAB. (It's a lightened versions of 3.5's Shock Trooper.)
Yea, before I do the Rage Prophet I'm just going to go Barbarian all the way. :D
Mysterious Stranger - I think I may just swap out the three Vitals for Improved Critical, Cleave and Greater Cleave if that's the case then. Does all the rest look fine to you?
I haven't finalised the order of what feats I grab, but they are the ones I'm after.
Getting Good for what Ails you in the Rage Powers would be cool, but I think the other stuff I've chosen helps a little more and makes for a more solid build. I just really hate the fact that when you come out of Rage, the effects will still be with you.
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...by the time you get multiple attacks...
...you still get only one if you have to move -- and any smart opponent will attempt to thwart full-attacks.
If you're Enlarged with an initial d10 weapon, you're dishing out an extra 4d8 with Improved Vital Strike at BAB11 whenever you must move/no-charge/attack or draw your loaded heavy crossbow and pop off a shot. That's more than a "slight" amount of damage even at that level. -- So what if it's not multiplied by a crit? You got it; and that's what's important. (And you'd crit 25% of the time on a single attack which hits 100% in the best of circumstances anyway. Crits are sweet, but excessive interest in them is overrated -- if you can kill most things with raw damage in three swats, you don't need crits.)
The first Vital Strike Feat can be worthwhile if you have a big damage weapon
(ideally d10+ for medium size, d8/2d6 enlarged is decently good as well).
I agree that there`s other stuff to take (not even mentioned here)
that is probably more worthwhile than specialzing in one sub-obtimal scenario.
More than comparing Vital Strike vs. Full Attacks,
I think that merely focusing on pure damage output isn`t the best idea...
There`s so many great abilities out there, both offensive, defensive, and `utility` (for lack of a better word)
Great Cleave is even more situational than Cleave itself.
I would consider taking Strength Surge at high levels to maximize use of Knockback,
especially when enemies start getting really big and strong (the scaling Guidance helps here as well)
It would scale w/ both Barb and Rage Prophet levels, and you can take it via Feat.
Useful tactic as AoO to prevent enemies from attacking you at all,
or using after getting in 2 or 3 iteratives (or Vital Strike), to prevent an enemy from full attacking you back.
One thing I would look at is to figure out what you are looking to do in combat. I tend to favor having a lot of options and being more flexible as to what you can do. For a Barbarian your role is going to be taking down the enemies as quickly as possible. Most of the times you will have two basic types of combat. The first is the fight against the BBEG. The second is going to be going up against lots of mooks. You are going to want to be able to do both at least on a basic level. Most people tend to specialize in one of the roles. This is where your feat selection comes in.
The fight with the BBEG is usually a stand and deliver slug fest. The Idea is to get as many attacks doing as much damage as possible. The BBEG usually has good AC and tons of HP. Accuracy and damage per shot is important.
The second type is usually going against a bunch of lower level threats. Individually you can take them out without too much problem, but there a lot of them. Here the more attacks the better. Your best strategy is going to be go for the full attack when possible. One problem that does come up is having to move. This is where cleave and latter great cleave come in handy.
After looking at your latest build most of it looks good, but a couple of changes I would make.
I am assuming the stats are for the starting level. I would suggest swapping DEX and Con and increasing CON to 15 when you level up. The reason being is this opens up the Raging Vitality Feat. This will give you an extra 2 points of CON when raging and mean your rage does not end when you are knocked out. This will give your party a chance to heal you before your extra HP go away. Also drop the CHA to 10 and raise the INT to -8. You are going to want some skills and this cost you 1 skill point per level and the 11 CHA is mechanically the same as a 10
Speaking of Skills switch the Skill focus from Intimidate to Perception. Perception is the single most used skill of the game and with a WIS of 8 you are already taking a penalty. The skills you are going to want to concentrate on are Intimidate, and Perception. but you will want to put at least a few points into Acrobatics, Climb, Survival and Swim, and maybe Ride. Climb and Swim only need a few points.
One thing I would look at with the feats and rage powers. Both are similar but I would use the rage powers to get things that cannot be done with a feat.
The overbearing advance is not going to work well for you. You have to make an overrun in order to use it. The problem is that you do not have Improve Overrun so this is going to provoke an attack of opportunity.
Internal Fortitude will only give you immunity to sickened and nauseated while raging. If you are thinking it will prevent you from being sick after you rage it will not. This rage power makes sense for your build, but I hope you did not think it was going to get you out of being sick after your rage.
Boasting Taunt is not a bad power but has some severe limitations. The biggest is it is a language dependant mind affecting effect. This is only going to be useful vs. intelligent creatures that speak either common or elf. The feat Dazzling Display may work better. It takes a full round action, but allows you to demoralize all creatures within 30 feet who can see you.
Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Intimidating Powers are all fine. Dodge is a little weak and probably not all that useful. Critical Focus is not going to help you all that much since your weapon has a low crit range. Improved Critical would be better, but even that is not all that good for a great club.
Some better feats would be Raging Vitality but you need a 15 CON. As I said before Cleave and Great Cleave can be useful if you are dealing with a lot of enemies. What you do not have is any kind of improved combat maneuvers.
If you are going to keep overbearing attack then pick up Improve Overbear, and Greater Overbear. Another good one would the Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder. Sunder can be used on more than just weapons. A cleric is really reduced in power without a holy symbol. You can also target the spell component pouch of an arcane caster and severely weaken reduce his options.
The most important thing to be looking at is what kind of game you are playing in. If you are having a lot of little encounters vs. a few big ones you are going to want to build differently. You know your GM better than we do so factor that in your build.
I agree with the suggestions listed above. Improved overrun with overbearing advance is nice, and take a look at the feat Charge Through as well if you're going that route.
I wouldn't take dodge at high levels, once your BAB is +6 there are more interesting options, such as lunge. As a half elf you'll probably have to forego dodge completely, but it's not a major problem.
Bracers of armour make no sense at all on a barbarian as they provide an armour bonus, not a shield bonus, so won't stack with a chain shirt. There is a feat in APG that halves your damage for a +4 shield bonus by spinning your weapon around. I'm not sure how good that is in reality, but it's flavourful for a barroom brawl where you're not in serious danger and extending the fight by a few rounds is fun. How often that will happen really depends on your DM though. I mention it, but I don't recommend it.
You may also want to take a rank or two in profession: barmaid, although that depends if she works in the tavern or just exacts protection money from the proprietor...