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Looking for advice on how to build an alchemist who primarily uses poisons. Obviously go for sticky poison, concentrate poison, grand/great mutagen, smoke bomb, poison bomb, but what else would be good? How about feats? Weapon choice (I'm thinking long spear)?
I'm also considering dipping into rogue for some sneak attack (DM doesn't want me going Vivisectionist), but I don't know.
Thanks in advance!
@HappyDaze: Hmm, that makes sense. Suppose I could stick with bombs while saving the poison for bosses (who can be poisoned) and any tough, poisonable enemies.
Has anyone tried the syringe spear? The flavor on it is FANTASTIC but I'm not sure how effective it is. Seems like the only benefit is having poison "pre-applied" to the spear, which isn't bad, but its a martial weapon.
Eh, it doesn't necessarily have to be a drain on the resources. If your DM is cooperative enough to let you seek out some Medium Spiders/Giant Wasps, you could conceivably have a virtually unlimited supply of poison.
He might be, I'd have to ask. This is for Carrion Crown, and I know the undead are immune to poison, so I think I would be primarily be a bomber with poison as backup.
Well more horror campaigns have Wolvesbane growing somewhere in the wild. Of course, that's an ingested poison. You can also conceivably have a pet snake that you milk.
That's something I didn't consider, thanks Preston. Pets cost a bit, but that could be easily solved.
You could also take a level of witch or wizard and get a viper familiar.
You could also take a level of witch or wizard and get a viper familiar.
Possibly, but I'm not a fan of multi-classing just for one feature of a class.
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I would suggest drow poison is about the best bang for the buck poison out there. As for weapon suggestions... feral mutagen is awesome, getting two poisoning attempts in a round instead of one and the DC for the second attempt is +2 higher... very nice.
I don't think I would try poisoning the teeth though...
I would suggest drow poison is about the best bang for the buck poison out there. As for weapon suggestions... feral mutagen is awesome, getting two poisoning attempts in a round instead of one and the DC for the second attempt is +2 higher... very nice.
I don't think I would try poisoning the teeth though...
0gre, your Alchemist guide is awesome but do you plan on making a page on the poisoner Hyde? You mentioned that it was a sub-build, and I was hoping to see your thoughts on it.
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Here's a 10 level build I made up a while back.
Race: Gnome
Stat importance: Int, Dex, Con, Str, Wis, Cha
Lvl
1 Alchemist 1 - Alchemy, Bomb 1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw Anything. Feat: Weapon Finess
2 Rogue (Poisoner, Scout) 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6, Poison Use
3 Alchemist 2 - Discovery (Smoke Bomb), Poison Resist +2, Poison Use. Feat: Shadow Strike
4 Rogue 2 - Evasion, Rogue Talent (Combat Trick (Blind Fight))
5 Alchemist 3 - Bomb 2d6, Swift Alchemy. Feat: Master Alchemist
6 Rogue 3 - Sneak Attack +2d6, Master Poisoner
7 Alchemist 4 - Discovery (Concentrate Poison). Feat: Skill Focus (Craft (Alchemy))
8 Alchemist 5 - Bomb 3d6, Poison Resist +4
9 Alchemist 6 - Discovery (Sticky Poison), Swift Poisoning. Feat: Skill Focus (Stealth)
10 Rogue 4 - Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth), Scout’s Charge
For skills obviously Craft Alchemy and stealth are a must, I'd also take acrobatics, disable device, use magic device (maybe)
Favored class Alchemist (get those extra smoke bombs)
Use mutagen to boost dex or str. Throw smoke bomb, rush in to attack from concealment. Make injury poisons and concentrate them when planning attacks. When you need to charge in and hit them hard.
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Thanks...
I've thought long and hard about poisoning alchemists and the more I look at it the less convinced I am that it works really well.
The other big problem is simply time. Most combats take 3-5 rounds to resolve and most poisons take 2-3 rounds to do enough damage to significantly affect the fight.
The sad truth is poisons are nasty in the hands of monsters and NPCs because they cause lingering effects that are difficult and more expensive to heal that typical injuries. For PCs inflicting lingering effects is almost always pointless.
Combat poisons
Drow poison - it's cheap... when you use sticky poison and craft it's really cheap (~12 gp/ dose I think). Cheap enough that you can use a lot of doses of it and not worry that 75% of the time it isn't working.
Purple Worm Poison -> AKA Wizard Killer. Hit a weak character with two arrows poisoned with this and you can make someone seriously question the idea of dumping strength. But it's expensive and unless you hit them with a lot of arrows still takes 2-3 rounds to work.
Giant Wasp Poison -> Could be interesting against a dragon if you have a bunch of archers. If you can get 5-6 arrows a round the save DC starts getting nasty and you might be able to take a dragon down from dexterity damage.
Deathblade -> Expensive but the fact that it required 2 consecutive saves makes this potentially nasty. Hit them 4 times, even a dragon is going to have a hard time with DC 28... but it's still expensive and takes a lot of rounds to work.
Thanks...
I've thought long and hard about poisoning alchemists and the more I look at it the less convinced I am that it works really well.
The other big problem is simply time. Most combats take 3-5 rounds to resolve and most poisons take 2-3 rounds to do enough damage to significantly affect the fight.
The sad truth is poisons are nasty in the hands of monsters and NPCs because they cause lingering effects that are difficult and more expensive to heal that typical injuries. For PCs inflicting lingering effects is almost always pointless.
I was looking over the poison list on d20pfsrd.com, and came across Dhabba Spittle.
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 12; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect 1d6 acid Damage and nauseated; Secondary Effect 1d4 Dex; Cure 1 save.
Cost: 50 gp for 1 dose (liquid).
With that sort of precedent set, could a player work out poisons like that? Say a poison that did a little damage, and a status effect. I think nauseated is a little much, but Sickened could work.
@Eric Clingenpeel: I really like this build, might actually give it a shot. Only problem I see is having my allies mad that they can't see in the smoke.
@0gre: I read your guide and love it! I'm seeing what you mean about poison though, it works best for NPC's. Those combat poisons I'll need to remember though, those are great. I'll save those for really tricky fights.
@Cheapy: That one is great! Definitely gonna have to remember Dhabba Spittle. My DM is the type to ask me where I'm gonna find a Dhabba in Ustalav though. Humbug.
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Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 12; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect 1d6 acid Damage and nauseated; Secondary Effect 1d4 Dex; Cure 1 save.
Cost: 50 gp for 1 dose (liquid).
With that sort of precedent set, could a player work out poisons like that? Say a poison that did a little damage, and a status effect. I think nauseated is a little much, but Sickened could work.
I agree, poisons that offer effects other than ability damage are much nicer. I don't like this particular example poison but I do like the idea of poisons that nauseate, sicken, or confuse.
I have some poisons that I wrote up for an article that apparently got dustbinned. I'll try and post them on my blog or... here in a couple days. If you don't see something soon put a bee in my ear (I have contact info on my profile).
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 12; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Initial Effect 1d6 acid Damage and nauseated; Secondary Effect 1d4 Dex; Cure 1 save.
Cost: 50 gp for 1 dose (liquid).
With that sort of precedent set, could a player work out poisons like that? Say a poison that did a little damage, and a status effect. I think nauseated is a little much, but Sickened could work.
I agree, poisons that offer effects other than ability damage are much nicer. I don't like this particular example poison but I do like the idea of poisons that nauseate, sicken, or confuse.
I have some poisons that I wrote up for an article that apparently got dustbinned. I'll try and post them on my blog or... here in a couple days. If you don't see something soon put a bee in my ear (I have contact info on my profile).
Awesome! After reading your guide, I was inspired to make a mad scientist Hyde alchemist that uses poison (and Spagyric Devices from SSG's Alchemist Discoveries), so I'd look forward to seeing those poisons and running them past my DM.
It'd be doubleplusgood if some of them were easily harvested from tameable animals!
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@Eric Clingenpeel: I really like this build, might actually give it a shot. Only problem I see is having my allies mad that they can't see in the smoke.
Then might I suggest (if you dm allows them)
Source Pathfinder #4
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot eyes; Price 8,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
These goggles are made of carefully-polished rock crystal, with frames of polished brass and a simple leather strap and buckle sized for a giant’s head (but easily adjustable to smaller wearers). The goggles allow the wearer to see through magical and normal fogs, mists, and similar obscurement. They do not confer darkvision or low-light vision. Further, the goggles distort and skew vision in areas not shrouded by fog, and when observing areas like this the wearer suffers a –4 penalty on Perception checks and a 20% miss chance when attempting to hit creatures.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, darkvision, fog cloud; Cost 4,000 gp
Not perfect, but might help.
Eh, it doesn't necessarily have to be a drain on the resources. If your DM is cooperative enough to let you seek out some Medium Spiders/Giant Wasps, you could conceivably have a virtually unlimited supply of poison.
Note that the game doesn't have rules for "milking" venomous creatures. Some GMs won't just let you take the poison out of a critter and put it on your weapon. They maintain that the creature's venom is only one (albeit important) ingredient in the weaponised poison, since what works when stored in a living creature and injected through specifically evolved delivery systems doesn't have to work when poured over a weapon.
You'll probably have to refine the raw venom to make it more durable and do something about consistency so you can properly apply it to the weapon.
IMO, a poisoner alchemist should look at the Concentrate Poison, Fast Bombs (min 8th level), Poison Bomb (min 12th level), Smoke Bomb, Sticky Bomb (min 10th level), Sticky Poison (min 6th level), and Stink Bomb discoveries. Taking 2-4 levels of rogue is a very good option; the Master Poisoner ability for the poisoner archetype and the Lasting Poison and Swift Poison talents allow you to get even more use out of poisons.
IMO, a poisoner alchemist should look at the Concentrate Poison, Fast Bombs (min 8th level), Poison Bomb (min 12th level), Smoke Bomb, Sticky Bomb (min 10th level), Sticky Poison (min 6th level), and Stink Bomb discoveries. Taking 2-4 levels of rogue is a very good option; the Master Poisoner ability for the poisoner archetype and the Lasting Poison and Swift Poison talents allow you to get even more use out of poisons.
An alchemist can coat a weapon with poison as a swift action starting at level 6. That's strictly better than Swift Poison, which makes it a move action. Also, lasting poison is worse than Sticky Poison.
Master Poisoner is very, very nice though.
IMO, a poisoner alchemist should look at the Concentrate Poison, Fast Bombs (min 8th level), Poison Bomb (min 12th level), Smoke Bomb, Sticky Bomb (min 10th level), Sticky Poison (min 6th level), and Stink Bomb discoveries. Taking 2-4 levels of rogue is a very good option; the Master Poisoner ability for the poisoner archetype and the Lasting Poison and Swift Poison talents allow you to get even more use out of poisons.An alchemist can coat a weapon with poison as a swift action starting at level 6. That's strictly better than Swift Poison, which makes it a move action. Also, lasting poison is worse than Sticky Poison.
Master Poisoner is very, very nice though.
Lasting Poison + Swift Poison + Swift Poisoning + Sticky Poison = swift action to apply a poison that lasts for (Int mod + 1) strikes; Concentrate Poison counteracts the +2 circumstance bonus on saves for Lasting Poison. Also, you don't have to wait for alchemist level 6 to make poisons work with multiple strikes.
Idea: buy or build a scabbard that poisons the blade when you draw it. It would only be able to have a few "charges" on it, but I think it would work quite well. Heck, if its a wondrous item you could probably make it permanent. I'll talk with my DM about this, but I think he would be cool with the idea.