I didn't see this commented on before but something I notice about the Oracle class is why don't have much by the way of precognition and prophetic prediction, which is what an Orcale is supposed to be all about.
This would be because you can't predict what PCs will do and you wouldn't want to force a predetermined outcome, so true predestination of destiny and fate of the type Oracles in legends and fiction are famous for woudn't work well for an RPG.
But I got to thinking - that's really not 100% true.
The traditional adventure path IS a kind of predestination. The details are up to the PCs, but the PCs are lead on a path from A to B to C. There's long debates between the 'sandbox' and 'railroad' styles of adventure, yet the whole adventure path format of even the most stand-boxy AP, like Kingmaker, nevertheless assume the adventurers running around in book 1 are inevitably going to face the challenges in book 5. Even in home games, the DM invariably must have some material planned out ahead of time.
I then thought, that's the stuff a mechanic for prophesy can be built on. A prophetic vision could take the form of reading the PCs the descriptive text of an encounter the have no yet faced. For example, reading them the room description for the final boss fight in the third book of an AP, as forshadowing while they're still in the first. Or, reading them the description of a boss or sub-boss, or important NPC. Prophesy in legend and fiction is always ambiguous. The dramatic value of visions of the future in stories is how the heroes might misinterpret the vision, and the DM can replicate that by simply contoling how much description context the PCs get - they may get the description of the room but don't know if it's the final boss fight, some aspect of a side quest, or even the location of an important quest giver. They may get the description of an individual but not if he's an ally or enemy.
Tying all this back into the Oracle class - this type of thing is what should be the signature ability of that class. Right now I'm imagining it as a Spell which only Oracles get (where per RAW Oracles use the Cleric spell list, this would be an Oracle only spell). It would be low level so most if not all Oracles have access to it, but with a spell craft check for a successful vision, with the DC keyed off of the CR value of the encoutner or individual, so the ability can scale, which at the same time giving the PCs and the dice some control over the value of the information.
What do you think?
I didn't see this commented on before but something I notice about the Oracle class is why don't have much by the way of precognition and prophetic prediction, which is what an Orcale is supposed to be all about.
You may not have seen this commented on, but during the APG playtest there were about a zillion threads about the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of the name "oracle" for the class.
What about the prophetic vision spell idea?
The Oracle has access to the Cleric spell list, which has the best Divination spells in the game. An Oracle with the right spells known can predict quite a bit about the future.
What about the prophetic vision spell idea?
Sounds interesting to me. The more "oracle-only" spells, the merrier, as far as I'm concerned.
I´m pretty sure I saw somewhere that the magic book (Complete Magic or Inner Sea Magic, I can´t remember) will contain new Oracle Mysteries including one for a more ´divinatory/oracular´ focus.
And +1 to what both Ross and Alexander said.
You're thinking Delphi. While Paizo may have used Delphi as part of the concept, being an Oracle has been expanded to be a more "Touched by the Powers" concept, it's like the God version of the Shaman, these are people recruited (possibly againt their will in some cases) to be vessels for a Mystery. Cordelia of "Angel" comes to mind as one example.
No, an oracle is a person capable of prophecy or speaking for the god. That's why we use the term "oracle" as we do. In every culture.
Pathfinder's Oracle is not an oracle, per se. Which is the OP's point.
The Oracle has access to the Cleric spell list, which has the best Divination spells in the game. An Oracle with the right spells known can predict quite a bit about the future.
....like any caster?
Can we really quit the silly replies?
The Heavens Oracle is the closest and it's kind of too far out itself.
I think there are several problems with this idea. The first problem is it would not fit well with games that play as the AP is being released. If you keep pace (or close to it) with the release of an AP getting through around one book a month and start when it is released, you wont have the material to provide the insight this character ability gives. And when you are playing an older AP you still might not as the dm buy them all at once. You might not have the description available to read to the player.
Second is this only works for AP's or homebrew adventures written in that style. Many dms dont plan that far in advance. I wouldnt have the kind of detail the OP is talking about for an encounter untill at most the session before I expect it to come up, that could be a matter of hours in world, not much of a prophecy there. Kingmaker while a sandbox is still an AP, it is written and therefore to a degree linear. A homebrew adventure can be truly linear and when I do it, I constantly shift my plans based on the events going on in game.
Third this kind of forces the dms hand, it puts the dm in the position of either having to some degree solidify some part of the future, or invalidate a class ability. Seeing the future in anything but a very immediate or very vague way steps hard on the dm's toes, even when he is working from an AP.
I didn't see this commented on before but something I notice about the Oracle class is why don't have much by the way of precognition and prophetic prediction, which is what an Orcale is supposed to be all about.
You're thinking Delphi. While Paizo may have used Delphi as part of the concept, being an Oracle has been expanded to be a more "Touched by the Powers" concept, it's like the God version of the Shaman, these are people recruited (possibly againt their will in some cases) to be vessels for a Mystery. Cordelia of "Angel" comes to mind as one example.
And after all babbling prophecies while breathing in volcanic fumes is a good set piece encounter, it's not exactly a basis for a broad adventuring class. :)
No, he was right the first time. someone touched by the gods could be a Saint (christianism), Prophet(Judaism, Islamism), Hero(greek), or my favorite, an Avatar. Favored and Blessed could also be used. An Oracle literally means "someone who sees the future", and Prophet usually has that flavor too. Me, I just take off the curse, put some minor ability instead, and call the class Avatar.
A true oracle, to me, would be some prestige class that any divination focused caster could enter, probably with prerequisites that would allow divine casters easier access.Back on topic, what would this Prophesy Vision spell do that other divination spells don't do already? And what would it do in a group that does not use APs, like mine? If it is controled by the player, what stops him from abusing it and maping the whole dungeon before even setting foot on it? If it's at the DMs control, why would he give any information to the players, unless he's planning to railroad them into some path?
Prophet is Christian as well. Saint is an entirely different thing.
It sounds like you've listed a ton of reasons NOT to have designed the Oracle according to the way the OP suggests. :)
His premise is good, but his execution is off.
But Paizo has all sorts of weird naming conventions..
The Heavens Oracle is the closest and it's kind of too far out itself.
I thought the Lore Oracle's automatic writing and the Nature Oracle's natural divination were nice oracular touches, too.
I was going for something more like the Delphi kind of oracle (so not so much just powers that grant a floating die modifyer), and very different from what any cleric could do (the usual augury/divination kinds of spells).
I see it as more of a licence for the GM to foreshadow.
I agree in games where the GM literally sits with the just the core books on the table and asks the Players, "Ok what do you do?" there's not much a DM could forshadow, but I think most games are not such an extreme sandbox. Generally there's at least and overarching villian, boss or sub boss, the GM has already concieved of and propbably statted out, and at least one NPC with some kind of quest to give that the DM has in his hip pocket to move the game along.
At a minimum, the oracle could be a vehicle to forshadow a meeting with such characters, if merely by having the vision be a description of what they look like, with the implication that it'll become an important person to them.
For the player, the game benefit could be as simple as being able to make knoweldge checks on the NPC before encoutnering them, allowing them to get the benefits of successes ahead of time, which they can use to prepare. e.g. "you see in your vision a white dragon on a tower of ice".
It might be that the white dragon is the quest giver, not the conbat encoutner, so maybe their investing in anti-cold magic is a red herring, but regardless when the PCs later see a white dragon, they'll know it's signifigant.
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Random Oracle Mystery that might feel more 'oracular,' if that's what you are specifically looking for;
Omens
Dieties Aroden, Desna, Irori, Pharasma, the Harbingers
Class Skills: Bluff, Knowledge (arcana), Perception, Perform
Bonus Spells: true strike (3rd), augury (5th), bestow curse (7th), divination (9th), slay living (11th), geas/quest (13th), resurrection (15th), earthquake (17th), miracle (19th)
Revelations: An oracle with the omens mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.
. A Glimpse Beyond (Su): You add your Charisma bonus to any initiative roll, and, once per day per four oracle levels you possess (minimum 1), as a free action, you can treat any foe below you on the initiative count as flat-footed against your own attacks for 1 round.
. Defensive Roll (Su): As per the rogue talent, but using a Will saving throw instead of a Reflex saving throw. A 20th level oracle can use defensive roll twice per day (but only once against any given attack).
. Deny Fate (Su): Once per day, as an immediate action, you can forgo a normal saving throw versus a magical effect and instead attempt a Will saving throw at the same DC. If you make this saving throw, the effect is ‘denied’ and you suffer no effect. If the effect affected multiple targets, and you succeed in denying the effects of the magical effect, the effects are treated as if they were [shadow] magic for all targets, and the effect has only 20% (one fifth) effect if it is the equivalent of a 3rd level or lower spell, 60% (three-fifths) effect if it is the equivalent of a 4th through 6th level spell, or full effect if the effect is the equivalent of a 7th level or higher spell. If you fail this special Will save, you suffer the normal effects of the spell, and all others who may have been affected must make their normal saving throws. At 10th level, you gain a second use of this ability, and at 20th level, you gain a third daily use.
. Entwined Destinies (Su): As a standard action, you can generate a link between yourself and one other target within 30 ft. that acts somewhat like a reversed shield other effect. Against that one target, you receive an insight bonus to AC and saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier, and if that target damages you, half of the damage is instead applied to the target. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to your oracle level plus your Charisma modifier, although you can end it at any time as an immediate action. The target is allowed a saving throw (Will DC 10 + half-oracle level + your Cha modifier) to negate the effect when you attempt to establish the link, but does not gain additional saving throws to break it in subsequent rounds. Once the link is established, the target does not have to remain within 30 ft. for the effect to be maintained. You can invoke this effect as many times per day as you wish, so long as you have rounds of effect remaining, but once someone successfully saves versus the effect, they cannot be affected again for 24 hours.
. False Guidance (Su): As a standard action, you can afflict a single target within 30 ft. with the effects of confusion, causing them to perceive false realities, and act accordingly. The effect lasts a number of rounds equal to your oracle level, and the target is allowed a saving throw (Will DC 10 + half your oracle level + your Charisma modifier). You can use this ability once per day for every six oracle levels you possess (minimum 1), and you cannot affected any one target more than once in a 24 hour period.
. Greater Guidance (Su): As a standard action, you can grant a single target within 30 ft. an insight bonus to all attacks rolls, saving throws and skill checks equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to half your oracle level (minimum 1). You can invoke this effect on yourself as a move-equivalent action.
. Plans Within Plans (Su): Once per day, as a standard action, you can grant all of your allies within thirty feet the option of rerolling a single d20 roll in the next round, and choose to use whichever result they prefer for their roll. At 8th level, you gain a second use of this ability, and at 16th level, a third daily use.
. Reject the False Reality (Su): You gain a bonus to Will saves vs. illusion effects equal to your Charisma modifier, and a similar bonus to any saving throws provoked by [shadow] effects, such as shadow conjuration or shadow evocation. You also gain an insight bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier versus creatures emulated via [shadow] spell effects, such as a fiendish wolf created by shadow conjuration. A number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier, you can attempt to dispel an illusion effect as if you had cast dispel magic at your caster level.
. There, Not There(Su): A number of times per day equal to half your oracle level (at least once), as an immediate action, you can change your location to replicate the effects of Evasion, taking no damage from an effect that would normally inflict half damage on a successful Reflex saving throw, so long as you succeed on that saving throw. (You declare the use of this ability after the results of the saving throw are known.) If you already have Evasion from another source, you can activate a use of this ability to be treated as if you possessed Improved Evasion. In any event, in addition to reducing damage, you also are automatically moved to the closest available space that is clear of the damaging effect, and can move a maximum distance equal to your fastest movement rate. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity or count against other movement for the turn, and occurs instantaneously. If this movement is not possible, or is insufficient to remove you from the damaging effect, this ability fails.
. Twisting the Skein (Su): As a standard action, you can manipulate the destiny of a target within 30 ft. forcing them to roll twice on any attack rolls, saving throws or skill checks for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, and take the result that you choose. On an ally, you can select the best possible result, and on a foe, the least advantageous, as you wish, but you cannot affect yourself with this ability. You must remain aware and conscious of the targets actions and circumstances, but maintaining the effect (and selecting the results) requires no action or effort on your part. The target does not need to remain within 30 ft. for you to continue ‘pulling the strings’ of his destiny. You can use this ability once per day, gaining a second daily use at 10th level, and a third at 20th level.
Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, your type changes to outsider (native), you no longer suffer negative levels from raise dead or resurrection and you gain SR equal to your oracle level plus your Charisma modifier. You cast any divination spell as if your caster level was increased by your Charisma modifier, and for the purposes of augury and divination, your caster level is equal to your oracle level plus your Charisma modifier, with no maximum accuracy cap. A number of times per day equal to your Charisma score, you can quicken one divination spell you know, so long as the modified level of the spell does not exceed 9th level.
NOTE: If you fear that that 'Omens' might prompt one or more of your players to hold their arm up and say, 'Thundercats, HO!' feel free to change it to 'Destiny' or 'Fate' or 'Prophecy.'
You could borrow an ability from Blood an Honor (a recent samurai game by John Wick). One of the character roles can make a prediction. If that prediction comes true, party members in that scene gain a bonus to their rolls.
The oracle can make a prediction at the beginning of a session, if it comes true, the party gets +2 Morale bonus to either one roll (out of combat) or +2 bonus to a single thing (attacks, AC, saves, etc). The oracle can make a new prediction once the previous one comes true. This encourages the players to make vague pronouncements that can be easily applied to a variety of situations (just like real life prophecies!).
Also, an oracle is someone who speaks for the gods. Seers interpreted signs, oracles spoke directly. I doubt Gorum is much interested in the future or words in general. His oracle would communicate through iron.
i think it also falls on the gm to help make the oracle and oracle.
for example, a game i ran not too long ago, we had a lore oracle with the tongues curse, and every once in a while i would make him (outside of combat) have a seizure type prophetic moment where he would chant something in his tongues language (the more he had, the more crazy and mismatched with languages the message was) that had something to do with the area or major plot as a whole.
he was playing an oracle, a chosen of the god(s), and that is no small thing. so to have major events or revelations of events to come happening around him is not that far fetched to me. and i think it brought flavor not only to the game, but the character, because then the player had to play into the whole prophetic chants ordeal, which he didnt mind. i would have never made him do that in combat though.
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I agree with the OP using particular descriptions to show the PCs a possible future, as a mechanic for prophesy.
If the PCs keep obtaining prophecies to guide their future actions, then they should consider the possibility that reality (=GM) will eventually twist to make sure the future they have seen comes to pass.
If the PCs don't like it, they shouldn't look.
You could borrow an ability from Blood an Honor (a recent samurai game by John Wick). One of the character roles can make a prediction. If that prediction comes true, party members in that scene gain a bonus to their rolls.
The oracle can make a prediction at the beginning of a session, if it comes true, the party gets +2 Morale bonus to either one roll (out of combat) or +2 bonus to a single thing (attacks, AC, saves, etc). The oracle can make a new prediction once the previous one comes true. This encourages the players to make vague pronouncements that can be easily applied to a variety of situations (just like real life prophecies!).
Also, an oracle is someone who speaks for the gods. Seers interpreted signs, oracles spoke directly. I doubt Gorum is much interested in the future or words in general. His oracle would communicate through iron.
Oh, I like this one.
Prophecy is a difficult thing to line up in a game that doesn't have a specific adventure path, and the game already has a lot of spells that allow players to catch glimpses of the future.
I don't think that adding more mechanics or spells really does the job of making the Oracle match their name. Adding anything that lets them glimpse the future to help themselves breaks what an oracle was supposed to be. How many Oracles in history were able to use their prophecy for their own benefit? How many were simply cursed by them, like Cassandra, seeing futures that could not be prevented and thus they couldn't benefit from? Just look at Oedipus. The original prophecy was that he would grow up to kill his father. Attempting to use that knowledge to change the future just made it worse, as the prophecy Oedipus later received was expanded beyond killing his father to ALSO marrying his mother.
Rather than adding more abilities, I would leave the spell list and mysteries as they are. My reading on the Mysteries is that they relate to the method through which the Oracle receives their visions. Bones for rolling and reading the bones, Life for watching the flight of birds or reading their entrails, Fire for staring into fire, Heavens for stargazing and so on and so forth.
What a GM should do is simply give the Oracle visions. This may come as something they get at random when they look at their "Mystery", when they suddenly get an irresistible urge to do a telling, or simply as dreams or other modes of getting them across. Regardless of how they get their visions, they get it through plot fiat. It isn't something they can control. Instead, they only let a little bit of their divine connection through at a time, learning to use it for spells and other abilities (though it sometimes rushes through as a full, uncontrolled vision).
However, if the player wants to get visions more often, you can go the Delphi route. An Oracle that has constant, accurate visions just about on call has to fry their brains with a variety of substances so that the Divine can use them as a loudspeaker instead of a middleman. It's possible to use these substances every once in a while without going instantly brain dead, but there's always the danger that each use will leave the Oracle as little more than a mouthpiece (and permanently reducing them to NPCs).
This lets the Oracle pass on information and fulfill the "role" without any extra changes. It doesn't require the class to be rebalanced but still puts it above clerics and other spellcasters in being able to tell the future. It also gives it a bit more flavour and "specialness", while allowing them to flirt with getting more information at the cost of their minds.
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If you can, tie it into the curse.
The Heavens Oracle of my KM PbP is an ex-prophetess that suffered the bleaching as Aroden perished; she was one of his clergy.
Years later, she is a full bleachling having survived the whole process; and I began to manifest her prophetic powers once more. Her old prophecies were sent to her by an old friend, and her Haunted curse causes relevant prophecies to fall out of her backpack, often handed to her by helpful NPC's that say 'oh, you dropped this'.
Obviously this isn't RAW, but the hints given once the meanings are deciphered benefit the whole group so no one has complained- and the tie in using the curse to deliver the relevant prophecies has worked well.
Oracle - an utterance, often ambiguous or obscure, given by a priest or priestess at a shrine as the response of a god to an inquiry; the agency or medium giving such a response.
Getting obscure, prophetic messages from a divine communication that can only be truly understood after the fact? Sounds like a fantastic McGuffin for DMs to me. Also a great way to make characters take on adversity... "To achieve the result you deserve, you must learn to fight in a sinister manner." Learn to fight with your left hand, because in the final battle your right hand will not be an option for some reason.
Please note that Oracles never told the future in any specific way. They gave ambiguous, prophetic statements. So if I wanted Oracles to be more "Oracle-like" I would use them as a DM-tool. Have them go into a trance and dole out some foreshadowing. For the basis of an entire class, though, I would call it fairly useless.
As Steelfiredragon mentioned, a Seer, on the other hand (literally an observer) would be someone who gives accurate information on future events. While it might be considered synonymous with the word Oracle, the devil is in the details.
A Seer, for me, would simply be a wizard that focuses on the Divination school.
Yea, what got me thinking about all this was the ritual of
It's obviously a spell, but not statted out, and it's very Oracle-ish in the traditional concept of what oracles are about. Gave me the idea of re-statting him out as an oracle, and statting out the ritual as an oracle-only spell.
Yea, what got me thinking about all this was the ritual of ** spoiler omitted **
It's obviously a spell, but not statted out, and it's very Oracle-ish in the traditional concept of what oracles are about. Gave me the idea of re-statting him out as an oracle, and statting out the ritual as an oracle-only spell.
Oracles told cryptic futures in riddles. Shamans went on spirit quests. The ritual you mention is a spirit quest.
The idea of being able to do some sort of ritual is sound, by why make it an actual spell? Why not make it a plot point, or simply require them to take certain herbs? Why does it need to be codified as a game mechanic?
Because