RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Good morning,
This weekend, I will be running my first ever 20th level game of Pathfinder. This is the first time I will have run something this high level (My games usually end around 14th level or so). I would appreciate any advice you all can offer on how to keep the game running smoothly and what to expect.
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The basic outline of the plot is that someone has stolen several objects from Abadar's Vault, and taken them "outside of reality." Without the "Platonic ideals" of the objects within the Multiverse, no new copies of these objects can be created, and no one can understand what the existing ones are. Example objects that have been stolen are the First Mace, the First Chair, and the First Book.
The PCs are commissioned by Abadar to track down the thief and bring back the items.
The villain is an evil Japanese industrialist from the "real world," who has discovered a way into Golarion and wants the items as museum pieces. The PCs must get to the portal between worlds (probably located on some far-flung plane), go through, find out where the BBEG is, storm his lair and retrieve the items. However, before he is killed the villain will summon a giant, Numerian-style Mechagodzilla to try and stop the party.
Set pieces are:
An opener with a rather pitiful (maybe 16th-level) necromancer attacking the Party with a zombie Tarrasque
The "Guardians of the Portal", a group of quite old Chromatic Dragons.
The BBEG's Lair, with lots of Gunslingers and the villain himself, a 20th-level ninja.
The "one more thing. . ." -- a fight against Mechagodzilla.
Any thoughts, either on this particular adventure or on running a 20th-level game in general?
don't mind me... I'm just posting here so I can find this thread later.
I am very interested in what kind of advice you'll receive on a 20th level game.
High level games can be quite a bit like rocket-tag. Much of it can come down to who wins initiative. If the Sorcerer jacks up initiative, she can open most combats with something like Time Stop....and then things just get silly.
The melee characters need to be well-equipped and thought out, or they simply won't be that functional.
Full attacks from well-designed characters and full attacks from monsters are often capable of killing the target in one round. This is why melee gets hit the hardest, as even if they win initiative, they can't get into position and full attack....which leaves them vulnerable to a full attack from a monster.
If the PCs don't have good saves....watchout. A dominate person on a low will-save poorly prepared fighter can spell doom for much of the party.
Essentially, things happen really fast. The group could be doing fine, then suddenly one thing happens and you might have a TPK on your hands. It gets to the point where either the PCs can handle a fight easily, or it's something they're not prepared for and have to retreat very quickly or die.
Just out of couriousity, What are the Dungen master's domains?
I'm guessing Trickery and Glory.
My first piece of advice is, don't run a high level game. The game has problems at most (if not all) levels, but it gets even worse the higher you go. All right, so that wasn't exactly helpful.
Keep an eye on spellcasters. They are powerful at low and mid levels, but even worse at higher levels. As in, ending combats before the enemy gets to act (and sometimes, even before the other party members can.)
Melee (really, any non-caster) will probably have a hard time keeping up in usefulness with spellcasters. I guess this is really part of "Keep an eye on spellcasters" thing. But it can be said again. Keep an eye on spellcasters. They are the ones you really need to keep in line.
My guess is...be prepared for lots of disruptions during combat. The characters have tons of options open to them, and since they haven't played the PCs before they have to figure out what they like and what they don't like. So just expect player turns to take a while is my guess (due to copious book searches).
Know what the PC's spells do! Don't assume you know, read up on them again and know what they do. Make cards if that helps.
Let 20th level characters feel powerful. Throw in an encounter or two that allows them to mow down schlubs by the score. I wouldn't even consider true schlubs an addition to the CR of an encounter. They're just there to be waded through while the real enemy is doing their thing.
Don't forget the environment. These are 20th level heroes of legend (whether they are or not is up to you, but still, they're level 20) and they shouldn't have to slog through regular old dungeons. Put them in far-flung planes/locales with caustic environments and everyday events that would prevent lesser folk from setting foot in them!
I wouldn't necessarily assume that four encounters a day is enough for 20th level PCs. With that many spells/resources at their disposal, you can probably throw 5 or 6 (maybe more) encounters per day at them if you really want to challenge them. That's not to say they all have to be melee encounters (include traps and/or magical challenges that use up resources).
For what it's worth, my current game is a 1 to 20 game with an extended stay at 20. The PCs will likely be about level 8 after 1 year of playing. I will have the benefit of knowing my players and their PCs very well by the time they reach level 20. Starting there from go is daunting to me. Good luck!
I'm guessing you guys just wanted a power session, right? Man, how do you even go about building a 20th level PC from nothing, or did y'all modify existing characters?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Thanks for the advice!
This is really just supposed to be a two-session or so power trip, since we never get to play higher than 15th level or so normally. We thought it would be fun to max out for a change.
Some players have new characters, and others took existing (9th level) characters from a previous game and leveled them up. But you are right, it will probably take a bit to get the hang of things.
Good point about the environments. I will try to come up with some exotic terrain :-)
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Thanks for the advice!
This is really just supposed to be a two-session or so power trip, since we never get to play higher than 15th level or so normally. We thought it would be fun to max out for a change.
Some players have new characters, and others took existing (9th level) characters from a previous game and leveled them up. But you are right, it will probably take a bit to get the hang of things.
Good point about the environments. I will try to come up with some exotic terrain :-)
He who wins init and attacks from range will win :P
As someone who DMed an epic game for well over a year, here are the things I learned:
1) If you are going to advance the characters, don't even try to do XP. Give them a level when they accomplish something major in your storyline.
2) Magic items can get stupid crazy in this type of game. Also, getting rid of some of their magic items can be impossible. What are they going to do with another +2 ghost touch longsword? Make them buy information or passage to a certain location via coins or magic items. 40k a person, to travel the river styx where swimming is death and flying over it is almost certain death.
3) I found that so long as the cleric was alive, no one cared about dying. He would simply true res everyone. I put a cap on the number of times someone could be resurrected = the natural constitution modifier.
4) Understand that sometimes, they are just going to not do what you want. In fact, don't make any set plans. Have your plot line generally laid out, with just certain points they will have to get to to advance the story. In between? They will screw everything up anyways.
5) Finally, look over your spellcaster's 8th and 9th level spells....and feel free to ban/modify anything that just seems way too powerful. That is really dependent on you as a DM really. Time Stop used to be stupid powerful, but Pathfinder has "adjusted" it so it isn't so crazy. But things like Gate, Imprisonment, Disjunction, and Shapechange can seriously screw with your game in a way that you don't realize. Talk with the mages, find out what they intend to do with the spells.
That's about the best I can help with :)
Shalandar
If the sorcerer wants to have a ring of three wishes around and is arcane bloodline, just say no.
don't
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The best advice I can give you is be prepared to improvise! Don't try to plan out encounters meticulously. You can have some general ideas for how your NPCs will act, but for the most part you'll have one round before things are way beyond what you expected.
Other advice:
-Be willing to say "no" - a lot of what PCs can do at level 20 (according to the rules) will not just switch tracks on you (see improvising) but derail the locomotive, put the cars sideways across the depot, and rip up six kilometers of track. You have to keep them from destroying their world as you built it.
-This is where the fun kicks in - seriously, you should be spending 50-90% of your time in these gaming sessions laughing at something someone attempts to do or some crazy but legal idea they have. If you try to codify and play everything straightlaced, it won't be fun. This is the chance for everyone to turn it to 11 and have a blast!
-Try to make things fun for the non-casters - casters normally rule the high levels. Throw in an anti-magic plane or something similar to give the rogue a chance to actually use that Master Strike or the Inquisitor to pronounce True Judgement.
-Make up ludicrous stuff - planes with reversed gravity or a vault where the smallest inhabitant is gargantuan is just the tip of what they should be seeing.
The high levels are what my groups call "imagination" levels, where the only real limits are what the GM and players can think up. (Also known as "the Wish problem.") The rules start to break down under the stress of high magic and casters become far more powerful than non-magic users. This can start to show up as early as level 13 and is definitely a problem by level 18. So just be aware that at this point you're using the rules as guidelines, not something you can always point to as a "yea or nay."
Well, since it's a one-shot (multiple games, but you know what I mean - it's not a long-term campaign) and since you're generating 20th level characters, a lot of my usual advice goes out the window.
In reality, you're not asking about running a 20th-level campaign, you're asking about 20th-level encounters and running them. It all comes down to what kind of game you want to run.
Be aware that there's some spells and powers in the game that can greatly diminish the characters' ability to do stuff.
- At 20th level mage's disjunction is very very scary for PCs. Not so much at higher levels, but at 20th they dread it. And face it, what evil caster would not start by dumping a disjunction on the party? This is a great tool for you as a GM to reduce (or remove) the PCs power (and stuff) but it's like the nuclear option - though it would be realistic for every high-level caster to dump a disjunction on them, it's not fun and you might expect to see angry players.
- Wall of suppression (APG) is another good one, and less deadly to magic items than disjunction.
- Make sure there's some 'easy' encounters - they're playing this because they want to feel powerful - let them. Let them pound the sand out of family of linnorms or a tribe of fire giants.
- There are a number of combinations out there that are a nightmare for the PCs. Consider a cyclopes with a vorpal weapon - that's something nobody ever wants to run into.
- Change it up some. If your players regularly play at high levels, they probably recognize most monsters - use Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, hundreds of pages of nothing but templates, or use any of the three Tomes of Horrors. Plus the 40+ Adventure Paths all have a bestiary. Or throw haunts, possessions, or other similar stuff in there.
You're not quite at the level where you can just throw a random challenge at them and expect them to work it out, but unlike low levels, you as the GM don't necessarily have to know the answer - odds are pretty good they can figure something out.
And some nuts and bolts advice:
- Combats will drag. In order to not have your turn take a year and a day, give the monsters individual initiative rolls. It'll be more fun for you, and the party won't be able to gang up quite so much.
- Enforce some level of time limit. If you call on the wizard and he starts looking up spells in the spell book, you go "okay, you delay" and move on to the next person. This also encourages people to be ready - nobody likes having their turn delayed.
- In line with that, I always, when one person is going, announce to the next person in line "you're next". I may have a monster between there, but it gets them focused on what you're going to do.
- For non-crucial rolls, consider using average dice. It takes noticeable time to add up 20d6 (or 40d6). If you like the randomness, use 35 per 10d6 and just roll the last batch (e.g. 20d6 becomes 10d6+35).
And have fun with it. Some of the combinations are just cool. I've given an umbral blot ninja levels, had a genius loci that thought it was a beholder, and had a tribe of cyclopes earth glide (with their oracle) and try to surprise the party (they failed because they ran into an underground wall of force, but that was what was cool, the party feeling a thud in the ground and instantly going on alert, followed by the emergence of cyclopes riding bulettes - but not with vorpal swords - that's a lot of magic).
As someone who DMed an epic game for well over a year, here are the things I learned:
...
3) I found that so long as the cleric was alive, no one cared about dying. He would simply true res everyone. I put a cap on the number of times someone could be resurrected = the natural constitution modifier.
Well, it's still got a 10-minute casting time, and as the PCs start falling, it gets harder for the remainder. But yeah, it can be an issue. However, if the goal of the party isn't "win this combat" but something else, then a 10-minute delay (or more) can be fatal to their goal.
And the no fear of death thing has other ramifications, too. In our group, the druid likes to wild shape into a cyclops and cast reincarnation in that form. Nothing like being able to turn someone into a kobold on purpose. He hasn't been gutsy enough yet to intentionally choose "GM's choice."
What I haven't yet decided is whether I have to pick a humanoid creature :)
Edit: And without the Ignore Material Components feat, there's still that 25,000gp diamond to contend with every time true resurrection is cast (or merely a 5,000gp diamond for raise dead or a 10,000gp diamond for resurrection ... you just have to deal with the hp loss and/or negative levels).
High level campaigns are great, I ended a game from 23-25.
So someone said Rocket Tag, that can be combat can become.
But depends on your group, in many ways the change of levels from one to twenty amounts to 0. The GM and players have more impact than combat spell mechanics.
Does questions of morality alignment arise. For one example I had a player fight in huge battle. As a powerhouse he was dropping npcs to dead quickly, level 23 pc to level 3 npc. After the battle wherever he went people had nicknames like Murder of Kal-Tel.
Time, I often had pc's make a list of personal goals for their characters between adventures, years would pass. At several points some players would wait years to hear from another pc.
After asking players what they wanted to do for 5 years, a monk said sit.