Ok,
Within my homebrew, elves and drow are quite literally the same species. They were the offspring of the Drow God and Elf Goddess. So, they are brothers and sisters eternally at war (since their gods had a falling out).
This all actually hangs together very well. Except for Drow being way more powerful than elves. :) Individual drow and individual elves are within the same ballpark (given PFs rewrite of drow). So that works great.
Unfortunately... Noble Drow don't have a corresponding Noble Elf in the book. :) Makes sense for Paizo's setting, but not mine. So, I'm working up an Elf Noble race as well. Here's my first shot at it. It's not as powerful as the Noble Drow in some ways, a bit more powerful in others. However, I think it works out to be about on par based on the power difference between elves and drow. It also adds in some of the flavor of classic elves I think. Note that the Elf goddess is the goddess of the sky/summer, so sunlight and spring are her thing.
Anyway, posting for feedback. Thanks.
Elf Noble Characters
Elf nobles are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. An elf noble's challenge rating is equal to her class level. Elf nobles possess all of the racial traits listed for elf characters, plus the following.
+2 Dexterity, +4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution. Noble elves are very intelligent, observant, and regal. These ability score modifiers replace the standard elf ability score modifiers.
Spell Penetration : Elf nobles gain the Spell Penetration feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites for it.
Spell-Like Abilities: Elf nobles can cast prestidigitation, detect secret doors and daylight each at will, and have detect magic as a constant spell-like ability. An elf noble can also cast sanctuary, dispel magic, and heroism once per day each. An elf noble's caster level for her spell-like abilities is equal to her character level.
Ok,
Within my homebrew, elves and drow are quite literally the same species. They were the offspring of the Drow God and Elf Goddess. So, they are brothers and sisters eternally at war (since their gods had a falling out).This all actually hangs together very well. Except for Drow being way more powerful than elves. :) Individual drow and individual elves are within the same ballpark (given PFs rewrite of drow). So that works great.
Unfortunately... Noble Drow don't have a corresponding Noble Elf in the book. :) Makes sense for Paizo's setting, but not mine. So, I'm working up an Elf Noble race as well. Here's my first shot at it. It's not as powerful as the Noble Drow in some ways, a bit more powerful in others. However, I think it works out to be about on par based on the power difference between elves and drow. It also adds in some of the flavor of classic elves I think. Note that the Elf goddess is the goddess of the sky/summer, so sunlight and spring are her thing.
Anyway, posting for feedback. Thanks.
Elf Noble Characters
Elf nobles are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. An elf noble's challenge rating is equal to her class level. Elf nobles possess all of the racial traits listed for elf characters, plus the following.
+2 Dexterity, +4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution. Noble elves are very intelligent, observant, and regal. These ability score modifiers replace the standard elf ability score modifiers.
Spell Penetration : Elf nobles gain the Spell Penetration feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites for it.
Spell-Like Abilities: Elf nobles can cast prestidigitation, detect secret doors and daylight each at will, and have detect magic as a constant spell-like ability. An elf noble can also cast sanctuary, dispel magic, and heroism once per day each. An elf noble's caster level for her spell-like abilities is equal to her...
I think, i'd leave the elves alone,and just add every elf/elf like feat available for free, they could just be feat heavy, like the ones that give them extra knowledge, or a few spells, or whatever.
I think, i'd leave the elves alone,and just add every elf/elf like feat available for free, they could just be feat heavy, like the ones that give them extra knowledge, or a few spells, or whatever.
Meh, doesn't feel like the other side of a coin. If elves and drow are two sides of the same coin, then I need something for the other side of a noble drow's coin. And just tossing feats onto a normal elf doesn't really feel right either.
In my game, elves can live for up to 1000 years or so, or occasionally for up to 2500, same with drow. So the Nobles would be the 2500 year ones, and the 1000 year ones the normals. Note this was in my game before PF, back in 3.5. So PF has been very nicely dovetailed into my world. :)
i would consider adding one offensive spell like ability maybe scorching ray, lightning bolt or greater magic weapon.
Also Nobel dark elves get SR (11+character level) i would give the noble elves something to balance this out in power, maybe some additional bonus to saves(+2 vs spells and spell like abileties)
The race you made here will become awesome mages =)
All in all though i like it
i would consider adding one offensive spell like ability maybe scorching ray, lightning bolt or greater magic weapon.
Also Nobel dark elves get SR (11+character level) i would give the noble elves something to balance this out in power, maybe some additional bonus to saves(+2 vs spells and spell like abileties)
The race you made here will become awesome mages =)
All in all though i like it
That's why I gave them spell penetration as a bonus feat. It stacks with the elf racial ability to penetrate SR, and at 1st level they can take Greater Spell Penetration if they want. The +4 to INT is also a +2 to penetrate, so at 1st level, they get a +6 already, and can up it to a +8 with one feat selection.
I will look into an offensive spell, but it'll probably be a once per day thing. Not an at-will. :)
Can I play one? :3
Depends on the game setting at the time.
If it's the monstrous campaign, then no, but you could do a Noble Drow (but then, you're down one class level all the time). If it's the more normal D&D setting, then yes, if the party is 2nd level or higher.
maybe just get rid of noble drow or make them supra-rare and it will save ya all the work ;>
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Can I play one? :3Depends on the game setting at the time.
If it's the monstrous campaign, then no, but you could do a Noble Drow (but then, you're down one class level all the time). If it's the more normal D&D setting, then yes, if the party is 2nd level or higher.
T'was a joke. Not a fan of LA races myself. It does look like a nice counterpart however.
I don't like Daylight at will, but I can't put my finger on why.
The CR seems a little low - it's a +1 CR for a crapload of strong abilities. A 1st level noble elf fighter will be a far better caster than a 2nd level wizard (except on the offensive front) AND better at fighting, for the same CR. Isn't the noble drow +2 CR? Can't remember the stats on it.
Drow are supposed to be more powerful than elves. 1. because they're evil, and the intended purpose was to be as powerful foes for PC heroes, not to be PC's themselves. If Drow were intended to be PC's they should simply be Elves with darkvision and light sensitivity.Ok,
Within my homebrew, elves and drow are quite literally the same species. They were the offspring of the Drow God and Elf Goddess. So, they are brothers and sisters eternally at war (since their gods had a falling out).This all actually hangs together very well. Except for Drow being way more powerful than elves. :) Individual drow and individual elves are within the same ballpark (given PFs rewrite of drow). So that works great.
Well, since this is for my own world, I'm shocked I didn't know that. You would think that something that important, I would have told myself that. It would have saved me a ton of work on my world if I'd just told myself things like that, since I could have just used Golarian instead. It would have been very confusing since Golarion didn't exist at the time, but what's a temporal anomaly between friends.
Unlike more straight-jacketed GMs, I'm fairly blase about races. As long as you are roleplaying your character, I can balance a game with just about anything in it. Comes from running games where power levels varied wildly between characters by design (Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Champions, etc).
T'was a joke. Not a fan of LA races myself. It does look like a nice counterpart however.Can I play one? :3Depends on the game setting at the time.
If it's the monstrous campaign, then no, but you could do a Noble Drow (but then, you're down one class level all the time). If it's the more normal D&D setting, then yes, if the party is 2nd level or higher.
Thanks. :)
I don't like Daylight at will, but I can't put my finger on why.
The CR seems a little low - it's a +1 CR for a crapload of strong abilities. A 1st level noble elf fighter will be a far better caster than a 2nd level wizard (except on the offensive front) AND better at fighting, for the same CR. Isn't the noble drow +2 CR? Can't remember the stats on it.
Nope, they're +1 CR critters. I toned the Noble Elf down to about 80% of a Noble Drow, which is about the same as a regular Elf vs a Drow.
The daylight is functionally equivalent to the Deeper Darkness the drow gets (same spell level, same at will).
And yeah, it's a good spellcaster, so is a Noble Drow. Again, just looking to make sure it's balanced against a Noble Drow, not against other standard player races.
why do't you just go the opposite? Make the noble elf an uber fighter type instead? +4 dex, +1 damage with bows (which also increases their crit threat) less magically more dextrous to balance it out? Or you could make that super muscled elves from elf quest? (that would be pretty hilarious)
why do't you just go the opposite? Make the noble elf an uber fighter type instead? +4 dex, +1 damage with bows (which also increases their crit threat) less magically more dextrous to balance it out? Or you could make that super muscled elves from elf quest? (that would be pretty hilarious)
Hmmm, possible. Could also go with a wise elf, ranger type. Not sure how that would work with the spell penetration though.
I think there is one thing you are forgetting. drow are Chaotic Evil by default, and as such fight among themselves almost as much as they fight against others. Noble drow need to be tougher than anything out there because if they were not their whole society would collapse. A drow can only count on what he can directly control. Anything else will probably be viewed as a threat.
Compare that to the Elves tradition of unity and cooperation and they balance. True the individual drow may be more powerful then said elf. The things the Elves are going to have is a there are going to be more of them. Also consider the elves have lots of support structure in their society. I would say that would probably mean that there will be more leveled elves then Leveled drow.
Elves are also going to have more resources then the drow. Since they are not in a constant struggle to survive they can afford to pursue a lot more careers. I can see a lot of elves pursuing crafts and skills that while not directly related to combat would greatly increase the power of their forces. Most elves should have masterwok if not magical gear. I also see a lot of minor magical items being common.
Elves also have a strong tradition of training. Think of magical academies, schools for warriors, and such.
Think of how easily a party can overwhelm a single BBEG.
I think there is one thing you are forgetting. drow are Chaotic Evil by default, and as such fight among themselves almost as much as they fight against others. Noble drow need to be tougher than anything out there because if they were not their whole society would collapse. A drow can only count on what he can directly control. Anything else will probably be viewed as a threat.
Actually, no I'm not forgetting anything. Drow are LE. You are, of course, perhaps, referring to Golarian when you say that? Even in Pathfinder and 3.5, Drow were CE individually, but in groups were LE. That's kind of stupid to me, so in my homebrew they are LE.
Compare that to the Elves tradition of unity and cooperation and they balance. True the individual drow may be more powerful then said elf. The things the Elves are going to have is a there are going to be more of them. Also consider the elves have lots of support structure in their society. I would say that would probably mean that there will be more leveled elves then Leveled drow.
And that argument fails due to the fact that elves are generally portrayed as CG, not LG. :) They usually don't have a tradition of unity and cooperation and balance. They have a tradition of arguing things until the thing they are arguing about dies of old age or humans and halflings go deal with the stupid ring instead. :)
Elves are also going to have more resources then the drow. Since they are not in a constant struggle to survive they can afford to pursue a lot more careers. I can see a lot of elves pursuing crafts and skills that while not directly related to combat would greatly increase the power of their forces. Most elves should have masterwok if not magical gear. I also see a lot of minor magical items being common.
Now, here we have some agreement. Although it's not that the drow are infighting so much as they are fighting Duerger, Sverneblin, Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and everything else. However, if you look at all the drow source books put out from 2ED on they are practically dripping with magical items. So that argument also falls apart.
Elves also have a strong tradition of training. Think of magical academies, schools for warriors, and such.Think of how easily a party can overwhelm a single BBEG.
Yep, there's strength in numbers (see my last point about Drow and being surrounded). Now, I'm not sure what all this has to do with the fact my world has a different background for elves/drow than default PF. Nor why it would not mean, given the background in my world, there would not be a symmetry between the two races.
I think there is one thing you are forgetting. drow are Chaotic Evil by default, and as such fight among themselves almost as much as they fight against others. Noble drow need to be tougher than anything out there because if they were not their whole society would collapse. A drow can only count on what he can directly control. Anything else will probably be viewed as a threat.Actually, no I'm not forgetting anything. Drow are LE. You are, of course, perhaps, referring to Golarian when you say that? Even in Pathfinder and 3.5, Drow were CE individually, but in groups were LE. That's kind of stupid to me, so in my homebrew they are LE.
Compare that to the Elves tradition of unity and cooperation and they balance. True the individual drow may be more powerful then said elf. The things the Elves are going to have is a there are going to be more of them. Also consider the elves have lots of support structure in their society. I would say that would probably mean that there will be more leveled elves then Leveled drow.
And that argument fails due to the fact that elves are generally portrayed as CG, not LG. :) They usually don't have a tradition of unity and cooperation and balance. They have a tradition of arguing things until the thing they are arguing about dies of old age or humans and halflings go deal with the stupid ring instead. :)
Now, here we have some agreement. Although it's not that the drow are infighting so much as they are fighting Duerger,...
Elves are also going to have more resources then the drow. Since they are not in a constant struggle to survive they can afford to pursue a lot more careers. I can see a lot of elves pursuing crafts and skills that while not directly related to combat would greatly increase the power of their forces. Most elves should have masterwok if not magical gear. I also see a lot of minor magical items being common.
Just because you are CG does not mean you have to fight with everyone. In a CG society where you are raised to respect each other you can still have a strong tradition of cooperation. As a matter of fact tradition will probably be stronger than law. Think of a utopian society where no one would think of forcing someone to do something, but encourages cooperation and support. Not to say there will not be debate, but not the harsh gridlock of modern politics. More like a family argument.
Also notice the drow weapons while plentiful are fragile. Seems to me that they may have had to take shortcuts because they lack resources. If you go back to the original 1st edition drow a single Daylight spell would practically cripple an entire drow army. I am also figuring that there would probably be more potent elven weapons than drow. Traditionally drow weapons where simply magical weapons that dissolved in sunlight. Few if any had extra powers of any sort.
My point is that equal does not always mean the same. The drow may have better stats and inherent powers, but the elves could be higher level. Noble Drow are rare so you may not need to do as much as you think to keep the balance. What I am suggesting is to give the Noble Elves a few more levels. probably around 3 or 4 levels. If you are also using the wealth by level they will also have better equipment.
Dammit, mdt, you ninj'ed my plan to bask in glory of creating Highborn Elves...
Those Noble Elves would be equivalent of Tolkien's Eldar, or maybe only Calquendi.
My point is that equal does not always mean the same. The drow may have better stats and inherent powers, but the elves could be higher level. Noble Drow are rare so you may not need to do as much as you think to keep the balance. What I am suggesting is to give the Noble Elves a few more levels. probably around 3 or 4 levels. If you are also using the wealth by level they will also have better equipment.
I didn't say equal or the same, I said symmetry. Adding 3 levels to an elf does not make it symmetric with a noble drow, it makes it a more powerful elf, which is symmetric with a drow of similar level.
Again, we are looking at my homebrew world. It has a great deal of symemtry. Dwarves have Duerger, Gnomes have Svirneblin, Elves have Drow, Halflings have Derro, and Humans have Humans (Team Evil for the win).
The two dragon deities are mirror images of each other, one male one female, both have hides made up of scales of their respective colored dragons (chromatic for the evil dragon god, metallic for the good). Elves are CG, Drow are LE. I have 27 gods in the world. 18 true dieties, two of each alignment, and 9 demigods, one of each alignment. Both Devils and Demons have managed to get one of their team into the god roster.
I try to build my world with a very yin/yang symmetry. Noble Drow are like a rasp on rusty steal in the middle of a violin concerto. In my world, they need something to balance them out.
I can understand if you hate the concept. But at this point, I'm not looking for people to tell me what to do in my world. I'm looking for feedback on balance and other consideration for what I am going to do.
I do thank you for your feedback thus far though, and did enjoy reading your positions. I simply don't think they apply to what I need at the moment.
Dammit, mdt, you ninj'ed my plan to bask in glory of creating Highborn Elves...
Those Noble Elves would be equivalent of Tolkien's Eldar, or maybe only Calquendi.
LOL
I don't hate your idea, just playing devil's advocate.
Here is another idea you may want to consider. Make them better physically instead of mentally. I would suggest the following DEX +4, INT +2, WIS +2 with no penalty anywhere. This will make them more combat oriented. You will end up with a lot of Rangers, Rouges and the like.
Another alternative would be DEX +2, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +2 again with no penalties. This would make for more Bards and even Paladins.
One thing I did notice that is missing is the Spell Resistance. If you are trying to balance things this a major bonus and have not seen any suggestions for its equivalent. I would also ditch the spell penetration as not all characters will be able to take advantage of it.
I don't hate your idea, just playing devil's advocate.
Here is another idea you may want to consider. Make them better physically instead of mentally. I would suggest the following DEX +4, INT +2, WIS +2 with no penalty anywhere. This will make them more combat oriented. You will end up with a lot of Rangers, Rouges and the like.
Another alternative would be DEX +2, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +2 again with no penalties. This would make for more Bards and even Paladins.
One thing I did notice that is missing is the Spell Resistance. If you are trying to balance things this a major bonus and have not seen any suggestions for its equivalent. I would also ditch the spell penetration as not all characters will be able to take advantage of it.
I went with spell penetration as the flip side of spell resistence. :) That symmetry thing. However, I think I need to put at least one attack spell on the list, so they have a sue for it.
I'm still mulling over the stats.
On the other hand, Drow society is Social Darwinism cranked up to Eleven. The noble houses that survive are the ones best at politics, treachery, with the application of both combat skills and magical might.
Elves are also going to have more resources then the drow. Since they are not in a constant struggle to survive they can afford to pursue a lot more careers. I can see a lot of elves pursuing crafts and skills that while not directly related to combat would greatly increase the power of their forces. Most elves should have masterwok if not magical gear. I also see a lot of minor magical items being common.
Elves also have a strong tradition of training. Think of magical academies, schools for warriors, and such.
MDT,
I have to say this sounds like it would be a fun world to play in. Wanna start up an online game? LOL
As for the stats, seems pretty good so far. They definitely lead to more casters, so I'm going to guess your ok with that. However, with Focused Shot and Duelist, you'll get a lot of archers and swashbucklers, which fits as well.
I would also suggest an offensive SLA, otherwise granting Spell Pen as a bonus feat doesn't really benefit non-casters, which isn't fair. Of course, you could offer either Spell Pen, or Weapon Focus, player's choice.
MDT,
I have to say this sounds like it would be a fun world to play in. Wanna start up an online game? LOLAs for the stats, seems pretty good so far. They definitely lead to more casters, so I'm going to guess your ok with that. However, with Focused Shot and Duelist, you'll get a lot of archers and swashbucklers, which fits as well.
I would also suggest an offensive SLA, otherwise granting Spell Pen as a bonus feat doesn't really benefit non-casters, which isn't fair. Of course, you could offer either Spell Pen, or Weapon Focus, player's choice.
I'm leaning toward a 1/day spell, but trying to think of what would be themeatically appropriate, possibly a 3rd level spell.
EDIT : Hmmm, maybe Lightning Bolt once per day, CL = HD?
LOL
Not LOL... LOTRO!
I'm leaning toward a 1/day spell, but trying to think of what would be themeatically appropriate, possibly a 3rd level spell.
EDIT : Hmmm, maybe Lightning Bolt once per day, CL = HD?
If you go with symmetry Noble Elf vs Noble Drow and keep the darkness-related theme of the drow then you could think of searing light as their offensive spell. Or create some custom plant/nature-based offensive spell for them.
LOLNot LOL... LOTRO!
If you go with symmetry Noble Elf vs Noble Drow and keep the darkness-related theme of the drow then you could think of searing light as their offensive spell. Or create some custom plant/nature-based offensive spell for them.I'm leaning toward a 1/day spell, but trying to think of what would be themeatically appropriate, possibly a 3rd level spell.
EDIT : Hmmm, maybe Lightning Bolt once per day, CL = HD?
AH! I knew there was a light attack spell, I couldn't remember it, I was looking at Arcane instead of Divine spells. That's the one.
AH! I knew there was a light attack spell, I couldn't remember it, I was looking at Arcane instead of Divine spells. That's the one.
That reminds me of racial feat for Aasimars from Races Of Faerun or somewhere else that that allowed them to shoot searing light in place of the regular daylight daily power.
I never understand why people bring up campaign setting-specific racial cultural traits to criticize someone's homebrewed creations...
I like this idea, and the noble elves seem well balanced against the noble drow. Prestidigitation and detect secret doors are great, flavorful choices, and I don't think the daylight ability will really be a problem. My only criticism (which is based on stringent scientific research) is that your noble elves don't seem as cool as the noble drow, and seem a little wimpy and too focused on just countering their counterparts' abilities. Spell penetration vs. SR, daylight vs. deeper darkness, sanctuary vs. divine favor, heroism vs... okay, nevermind.
Maybe it's just that the bad guys get all the cool toys, but why can't the good guys be more like Batman? Good guys can wear black, too!
I never understand why people bring up campaign setting-specific racial cultural traits to criticize someone's homebrewed creations...
I like this idea, and the noble elves seem well balanced against the noble drow. Prestidigitation and detect secret doors are great, flavorful choices, and I don't think the daylight ability will really be a problem.
LOL, thanks. :)
My only criticism (which is based on stringent scientific research) is that your noble elves don't seem as cool as the noble drow, and seem a little wimpy and too focused on just countering their counterparts' abilities. Spell penetration vs. SR, daylight vs. deeper darkness, sanctuary vs. divine favor, heroism vs... okay, nevermind.Maybe it's just that the bad guys get all the cool toys, but why can't the good guys be more like Batman? Good guys can wear black, too!
Well, I admit them not being 'as cool' was a design choice and philosophy. Basically, I went with the idea that normal drow are 'cooler' from a power standpoint than normal elves. So, if we want the 'boosted' elves and drow to be the same power relative to each other, the drow needs to be stronger.
I do agree that the elves came out being a bit 'Anti Drow', but, as I said, in my homebrew, they are the same race. The Nobles are the throwbacks to the first elves and drow, and are much more powerful. As the god blood in them has thinned out, they've turned into normal drow and elves. In another 20,000 years neither will exist except as a one in a generation birth.
None of the other races have the super long lifespan of the elves, so all the humans, halflings, and dwarves have burned through their god-blood millenia ago. That's where all the stories of super human heroes came from, like the equivalent of Hercules. The elves and drow, because of their long lifespans, managed to eke that blood out longer and still have their occasional god blooded offspring.
In my homebrew campaign, I have the elves split at some point in history, part left for an outerworld, part stayed on the original world. Those who stayed suffered a magor degeneressence and became the Core book elves. The one who left and returned after millenia lost suffered less from ability loss, they have the same racial abilities than elves, but their ability score is the following; +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 to two mental stats.
@Mordo
Interesting, I'm assuming they are all NPCs, not player character races?
@Mordo
Interesting, I'm assuming they are all NPCs, not player character races?
All NPCs. Core elves are considered the same as other races; lower class citizen and are shun by "True" elves. At best they are servant to "true" elves families that cannot stand any other races.
Also I'm trying to insert the drow background(matriarcal, priest, etc.) opposed to elven background as two main faction/families that fought over power.