In this case, "willing" just means "a valid target for spells and effects that require willing targets". It doesn't extend to other spells or effects.
It seems to be a bit confusing in the RAW. It says:
Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.However, the context that this is in about some spells being limited to willing creatures only.
My question is two-fold:
1) Are all unconscious creatures considered willing for any spell, or is it just for spells that are limited to willing creatures?
2) If they are willing for any spell, are they also considered willing for saves for other effects (channels, Su abilities, environmental effects)?
It's for willing targets only.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Being a willing target is completely different from choosing to fail a save.
This verbiage for spells such as Teleport.
Can you give us an example of when this would be applicable?
A saving throw is not a matter of being willing or not. A character can voluntarily choose to fail a saving throw and accept the result. This happens (almost) ever time someone casts a healing spell on someone - the spell is cast, the character gets the opportunity to save, and most decline and accept the result of the spell. The reason you don't see this played out more is that most people gloss over it for the expediency of play.
I'm posting at work so I can't start scouring my book for the rules, but I don't believe being unconscious explicitly prohibits any saves. I do know that the answer is "good luck" on Reflex.
Yes in all three cases. The only one in which I might deny the save, possibly, is #2.
Yes, they get saves in every case. If an unattended object with no ability to move on its own gets a save against attacks, why wouldn't an unconscious PC? Or a helpless one? Sure, you can make it harder, but they get a save nonetheless.
Note that helpless characters effectively have 0 Dex, so that makes it harder to pass Reflex saves.
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The Reflex save in the first two examples isn't about the PC moving out of the way of the 'tree' or anything else that might require a reflex save. It can be, but in this case the game mechanics and reality need to shift. Thus its more like the 'tree' falls, and 'hits' the character. But since there are branches, one of the branches leaves (not leaf!) enough space for the character to eventually be able to escape (provided they wake up, have their bounds removed, etc...).
For the Will Saves, I've encountered the same problem on occasion. It seems like you can never really remember the issue for a question on a forum post. At least for me. For an something like dominate person, which is where I believe it came up for me, things can be tricky.
If the person is asleep vs. unconscious, I would give a Will save, as the body is still active with dreams and all that other good stuff that comes with sleep (even magical). If someone were unconscious due to negative HP, or even a magical effect that is different than sleep, well they are helpless as directed in the CR via the unconscious write up. As Helpless, they are 'completely at an opponents mercy.' which would imply that they would forgo their Will Save, and thereby be dominated.
To me, if it has a Will Save and you are unable to make that will save for a reason like being helpless, you are automatically willing.
+4.
Keep in mind that saves are an abstraction that combines luck and skill for avoiding an effect. You may be helpless (0 Dex), but due to good fortune, something caused the spell to be less impactive for you.
Edit: Ninja'ed!
If the person is asleep vs. unconscious, I would give a Will save, as the body is still active with dreams and all that other good stuff that comes with sleep (even magical). If someone were unconscious due to negative HP, or even a magical effect that is different than sleep, well they are helpless as directed in the CR via the unconscious write up. As Helpless, they are 'completely at an opponents mercy.' which would imply that they would forgo their Will Save, and thereby be dominated.
To me, if it has a Will Save and you are unable to make that will save for a reason like being helpless, you are automatically willing.
Sleeping and unconscious are definitely different. You still get perception checks while sleeping. Not so much when unconscious.
I would always allow all saves for unconscious creatures. When you coup-de-grace a helpless opponent, there is still a Fort save involved. Why not for Will?
So a few examples to clarify:
1) You hex someone to sleep and then a tree falls on them (assume the tree would do nothing to rouse the person prior to impact). Does the person sleeping get a reflex save?
2) Person is tied up, bound, and completely restricted, and the same happens. Do they get a reflex save?
3) Person is dying and unconscious. Do they get a will save to resist mind manipulation?
This has been something taken for granted in my group for awhile now, and both DMs play it as if being unconscious results in a auto failed saves, regardless of what it is. This actually resulted in my character death at least once. The clarification provided already has been good, I just wanted to see what other people thought of the situations above.
1) The felling of the tree is where I would allow the sleeper/helpless individual a chance to react just prior to the tree actually falling over (chopping trees is loud enough to wake a sleeper imo unless the tree is a magically summoned thing, or falls out of an extradimensional space). If they are at negative hp and no one is able to do anything for them prior to the tree falling...that's sort of a done deal (I'd still randomize the fall a bit even then just to give them a snowball's chance). To give no chance is a bit too mean even for me...but sleeping is sleeping and helpless is helpless regardless of how you may interupt/modify or change the circumstances.
My little brother hit me with a bat (it was plastic and I'm still pretty) when I was asleep once. I don't remember getting a preternatural chance to dodge prior to impact. Items getting saves typically is a structural thing...shoes, barrels, etc don't leap out of the way of trees or landslides but they might not get totally crushed/destroyed.
However, all that is for reflex saves, combat, etc. For magical will saves I would personally allow it, same for fortitude based spells but I can't recall the official rules at this point...if there are any.
2)The character has gained the Pinned condition, which qualifies as helpless (pinned means bound, bound is a helpless qualifier). They can scream as loud as they want, but until their chance to act, or someone else's efforts to free them...they get to watch that tree come down. Again I'd randomize a falling tree but attacks would resolve as per Helpless, and any other negative actions.
Fortitude saves sure, Will saves definitely...no reflex save until you are no longer pinned and therefore helpless (edit: having thought it over some more I suppose I'd allow the character a reflex save at a 0 Dex as that'd be more PC friendly within the rules).
3)Dying and unconscious is a bad situation to be in...don't do it :). If a person is dying they aren't valid targets of mind manipulation (per MY interpretation of the rules). You can stab, lightning bolt, burn, dismember, abuse, doodle with markers on a dying character, but you can't get into their mind...they are disabled and on their way to "that far country" it's not that they are into "sleepy hit points"
However, that aside a dying character will autofail a great number of effects/attacks, etc and in the falling tree case...if the tree lands on their square it's probably best to look away and start thinking of resurection or a new character.
I think people are confusing being a willing target of a spell and automatically failing a save. These are two different things
Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Just because they are willing does not mean they do not get a save.
This is for spells like Teleport, Dim Door, Plane Shift, etc.
These spells all state you can take other willing targets with you. Though they have a spell resistance of yes and will listed under saves.
That means you can be willing and there is still a save vs the spell.
Examples would be you knock out prince Tobekidnapped and plane shift to some evil plane. You can plane shift the prince now that is he unconsious but he still gets a will save to resist the effect.
Same idea you teleport in on sleeping creatures then plane shift out with some of them. They will each get a will save to resist the plane shift, but they are considered willing because the are asleep/unconscious.
Though you cannot even attempt to plane shift away with someone who is bond, cowering, grappling, parayzed, pinned or stunned since they are not willing targets.
Note that helpless characters effectively have 0 Dex, so that makes it harder to pass Reflex saves.
+1 they get saves albeit with massive penalties