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Hi,
In the last session, the wizard casted maze to an enemie big boss dragon (no save, beating his SR). The dragon doesn't escape next round, so, the wizard casted Dimensional lock in the area (Duration: Days!)
So, can the dragon return after 10 minutes? In the maze description "the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast" but in the dimensional lock description says "Once dimensional lock is in place, extradimensional travel into or out of the area is not possible.
And with antimagic field instead of dimensional lock?
Dimensional Lock
Level Cleric 8 , Sorcerer 8 , Wizard 8
Classification Abjuration
Saving throw None
Range Medium
Target 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space
Components V, S
Dimensional Lock
Casting Time 1 standard action
Duration (Caster Level) days
Spell Resistance Yes
Source Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook p.270
Effect You create a shimmering emerald barrier that completely blocks extradimensional travel.
Description
You create a shimmering emerald barrier that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred include astral projection , blink, dimension door , ethereal jaunt , etherealness , gate , maze , plane shift , shadow walk , teleport , and similar spell-like abilities. Once dimensional lock is in place, extradimensional travel into or out of the area is not possible.
A dimensional lock does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. Also, the spell does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.
Maze
Level Sorcerer 8 , Wizard 8
Classification Conjuration (Teleportation)
Saving throw None
Range Close
Target One creature
Components V, S
Casting Time 1 standard action
Duration See text
Spell Resistance Yes
Source Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook p.312
Effect You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth.
Description
You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth. Each round on its turn, it may attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape the labyrinth as a full-round action. If the subject doesn't escape, the maze disappears after 10 minutes, freeing the subject.
On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door , do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.
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Hi,
In the last session, the wizard casted maze to an enemie big boss dragon (no save, beating his SR). The dragon doesn't escape next round, so, the wizard casted Dimensional lock in the area (Duration: Days!)
So, can the dragon return after 10 minutes? In the maze description "the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast" but in the dimensional lock description says "Once dimensional lock is in place, extradimensional travel into or out of the area is not possible.
And with antimagic field instead of dimensional lock?
Dimensional Lock
Level Cleric 8 , Sorcerer 8 , Wizard 8
Classification Abjuration
Saving throw None
Range Medium
Target 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space
Components V, S
Dimensional LockCasting Time 1 standard action
Duration (Caster Level) days
Spell Resistance Yes
Source Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook p.270Effect You create a shimmering emerald barrier that completely blocks extradimensional travel.
Description
You create a shimmering emerald barrier that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred include astral projection , blink, dimension door , ethereal jaunt , etherealness , gate , maze , plane shift , shadow walk , teleport , and similar spell-like abilities. Once dimensional lock is in place, extradimensional travel into or out of the area is not possible.A dimensional lock does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. Also, the spell does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.
Maze
Level Sorcerer 8 , Wizard 8
Classification Conjuration (Teleportation)
Saving throw None
Range Close
Target One creature
Components V, S
Casting Time 1 standard action
Duration See text
Spell Resistance Yes...
Nice combo.
My advice is to always know your player's spells. Of course even if I knew my player's spells this would have caught me off guard.I did notice that dimensional lock also has SR so he has to beat the SR again in order to keep the dragon away. The dragon might want to get a scroll of plane shift to avoid this situation next time, and kill the annoying caster first.
edit:The dragon now has days to formulate an attack plan. Every cloud has a silver lining.
Very nice combo!!!!!!!!!!!
I certainly hadn't thought that.
Sure it's not easy to pull off (2 spells, 2 rolls for SR, 1 failed INT check) but still very nice combo.
Yar!
Upon escaping or timing out, I would first check for SR as mentioned already. If the caster beats the dragon's/creature's SR, forcing him to be unable to enter that space, I would follow the spells text for instances where re-entering is not possible.
... If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. ...
Sure, Dimensional lock is not technically as "solid object", but in so much as preventing something from entering into the area from an extra-dimensional space, it basically is.
If I were DMing this situation, I would say that the dimensional lock would prevent the creature in the maze from escaping on it's own, but when the timer runs out, he is forced out of the space (and has to go somewhere), putting the freed creature in the closest possible open space allowed (ie: outside the radius of the Dimensional lock). If you proceeded to build a sphere of stone around the perimeter of the dimensional lock, then it would appear outside of that (as it cannot appear within the bounds of the dimensional lock, and cannot appear in a solid object, it continues to be shunted further and further away from it's original locale until it reaches an open space that can occupy it.
(now, if you had the resources to do it quickly, I'd do the maze, dimensional lock, bio-dome of stone, and create a pocket just large enough to house the creature within the wall of stone and reinforce that area (wall of iron, etc) and either booby-trap it like crazy, or make sure there is limited air so that it begins to suffocate, both, etc)
~P
permancy the dimension lock and the opponent is gone for good!
It can't be done by the rules, and since I am thinking the OP is the GM he probably won't let it happen.
Yar!
Upon escaping or timing out, I would first check for SR as mentioned already. If the caster beats the dragon's/creature's SR, forcing him to be unable to enter that space, I would follow the spells text for instances where re-entering is not possible.
... If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. ...Sure, Dimensional lock is not technically as "solid object", but in so much as preventing something from entering into the area from an extra-dimensional space, it basically is.
If I were DMing this situation, I would say that the dimensional lock would prevent the creature in the maze from escaping on it's own, but when the timer runs out, he is forced out of the space (and has to go somewhere), putting the freed creature in the closest possible open space allowed (ie: outside the radius of the Dimensional lock). If you proceeded to build a sphere of stone around the perimeter of the dimensional lock, then it would appear outside of that (as it cannot appear within the bounds of the dimensional lock, and cannot appear in a solid object, it continues to be shunted further and further away from it's original locale until it reaches an open space that can occupy it.
(now, if you had the resources to do it quickly, I'd do the maze, dimensional lock, bio-dome of stone, and create a pocket just large enough to house the creature within the wall of stone and reinforce that area (wall of iron, etc) and either booby-trap it like crazy, or make sure there is limited air so that it begins to suffocate, both, etc)
~P
It is in no way a solid object. It is a magical affect that can be negated by SR. A teleporting creature can no more enter into a filled square than one coming in from maze so there really is no precedent for allowing it to act like a solid object. Not being able to occupy the same space as a solid object is a basic rule. In such cases you are shunted to the closest available space.
IIRC, you take damage if you have to pass thought objects to get to that open space.PS:You are one evil dude with the booby trapping, but I was thinking the same thing generally.
edit:I see you are aware of the shunting rules.
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permancy the dimension lock and the opponent is gone for good!
Yes, the wizard said the same. I said no, but the cleric said he will cast next time forbiddance (sigh). It will be his next step in the next combat... grrgrr...
I did notice that dimensional lock also has SR so he has to beat the SR again in order to keep the dragon away. The dragon might want to get a scroll of plane shift to avoid this situation next time, and kill the annoying caster first.
I forgot this. But he´s a 18th level wizard, elf, with spell penetration and greater spell penetration.
A wyrm dragon banned from material plane in 2 rounds because he hasn´t a plane shift spell or scroll... (sigh again)
permancy the dimension lock and the opponent is gone for good!Yes, the wizard said the same. I said no, but the cleric said he will cast next time forbiddance (sigh). It will be his next step in the next combat... grrgrr...
I did notice that dimensional lock also has SR so he has to beat the SR again in order to keep the dragon away. The dragon might want to get a scroll of plane shift to avoid this situation next time, and kill the annoying caster first.I forgot this. But he´s a 18th level wizard, elf, with spell penetration and greater spell penetration.
A wyrm dragon banned from material plane in 2 rounds because he hasn´t a plane shift spell or scroll... (sigh again)
Good news: He can't permanency the spell unless you have a house rule that says he can.
Bad news: The forbiddance does force another SR check though. I think they planned this one.
The dragon also does not appear far enough above the party to be considered a boss fight so I would not worry about them handling it as easy as it seems they did. I normally give my dragon limited wish so they can cast spells they don't have. It cost some gold, but dragons are rich.
Yar!
You are one evil dude with the booby trapping, but I was thinking the same thing generally.
edit:I see you are aware of the shunting rules.
Why thank you! ^_^
…and yes, I was thinking about the shunting rules as I wrote the above, and how they might interact.
I still hold that the creature trapped in the maze needs to go somewhere once the spell ends, because when the spell ends
the maze disappears
.
I see this as the spell creating a temporary extra-dimensional space, and I would not allow an 8th level spell to be potentially more potent than a 9th by trapping something forever in the void of nothing, or even if only for the duration of the dimensional lock (days). If the extra-dimensional maze disappears (aka no longer exists) and the spell states that when that happens, the creature within is freed, then it needs to go somewhere. If something prevents it from re-entering where it originally left, it would, in my opinion, have to go to the nearest possible place.
Is there RAW stating this is true or false? For this particular circumstance: no. But from the general sense I get from all the rules (including shunting, forced movement, and so forth), I get the feeling that this would be a good way to go about this particular situation.
~P
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Forbiddance
Level Cleric 6
Classification Abjuration
Saving throw See text
Range Medium
Target (Caster Level*60)-ft. cube [S]
Components V, S, M, DF
Casting Time 6 rounds
Duration Permanent
Spell Resistance Yes
The BIG boss it´s near to arrive, next session. This was a big badass minion, but I planned to use him to expend their resources.
The big boss is a red wyrm.
I´ll give him an antimagic field.
Forbiddance
Level Cleric 6
Classification Abjuration
Saving throw See text
Range Medium
Target (Caster Level*60)-ft. cube [S]
Components V, S, M, DF
Casting Time 6 rounds
Duration Permanent
Spell Resistance YesThe BIG boss it´s near to arrive, next session. This was a big badass minion, but I planned to use him to expend their resources.
The big boss is a red wyrm.
I´ll give him an antimagic field.
That antimagic field won't cover the entire creature. You do get to pick which 10 ft area is covered though per a developer.
You could also cast dimensional anchor on yourself so the maze can not affect you if the antimagic field is your solution to the maze. It also nullifies your breath weapon and your spells turning you into an oversized fighter. Unless the fight is in close quarters where the party can't play keep away this will not be to your advantage.PS: Maybe the minion will come back and help his boss since he is not dead.
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Yar!
You are one evil dude with the booby trapping, but I was thinking the same thing generally.
edit:I see you are aware of the shunting rules.
Why thank you! ^_^
…and yes, I was thinking about the shunting rules as I wrote the above, and how they might interact.
I still hold that the creature trapped in the maze needs to go somewhere once the spell ends, because when the spell ends
the maze disappears
.
I see this as the spell creating a temporary extra-dimensional space, and I would not allow an 8th level spell to be potentially more potent than a 9th by trapping something forever in the void of nothing, or even if only for the duration of the dimensional lock (days). If the extra-dimensional maze disappears (aka no longer exists) and the spell states that when that happens, the creature within is freed, it needs to go somewhere. If something prevents it from re-entering where it originally left, it would, in my opinion, have to go to the nearest possible place.
Is there RAW stating this is true or false? For this particular circumstance: no. But from the general sense I get from all the rules (including shunting, forced movement, and so forth), I get the feeling that this would be a good way to go about this particular situation.
~P
I understand that logic. And if not, it´s a very powerful combo useful against almost everybody, if you have not friends who can help you to exit.
Next session will be next saturday, but I´m not sure.
So, if the prisoner exits the maze with and INT check, also he will appear? or he should wait until the maze dissapears, ten minutes after? (because the maze still exists)
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That antimagic field won't cover the entire creature. You do get to pick which 10 ft area is covered though per a developer.
You could also cast dimensional anchor on yourself so the maze can not affect you if the antimagic field is your solution to the maze. It also nullifies your breath weapon and your spells turning you into an oversized fighter. Unless the fight is in close quarters where the party can't play keep away this will not be to your advantage.PS: Maybe the minion will come back and help his boss since he is not dead.
Antimagi field: Target 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you.
I consider you´re all of... you...your size no matters the size... isn´t it?
I still hold that the creature trapped in the maze needs to go somewhere once the spell ends, because when the spell ends the maze disappears.
I agree with this.
Since the extradimensional space is no longer there, the creature has nowhere to be unless it is shunted to the nearest possible location. The combo can't force the creature to exist in a "nowhere-space".
If you make the in check as a full round action you appear immediately. The problem in this case is that there is a dimensional anchor spell in place so if the SR check succeed he is stuck until the duration of the maze. The forbiddance spell, if it is in place is a 2nd way to keep him there until the maze expires. If both checks fails he gets to come back though. You only have to check against SR once per casting of a spell so if he gets mazed again it will take a 2nd dimensional anchor spell and forbiddance spell to keep him down again.
If he does get back the cleric or wizard would get all of my love*.
*Love in this case means teeth, claws, and bites or anything else that I think works.
I say take the cleric out first. If you kill the wizard the cleric will just bring him back to life.
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So, uhh... here's my question. What did the mage cast dimensional lock on?
If the dragon has already been sent to the maze, he's not there to be targeted to lock in. And the mage can't target the spell, or the maze.
So...
He targets the area where the dragon was before he got mazed?
I just see the dragon reappearing in the nearest available square.
Besides, the maze spell has a limited duration. Regardless of whether the creature can reappear or not, the maze spell ends. Wherever that leaves the dragon, it should be able to teleport/plane shift/whatever back to attack the party as it desires.
@Pirate
I don't think that dimension lock is a solid object.
Anyway the combo isn't easy to pull off as it requires at base two 8th level arcane spells.
Yar!
Again, this is only my opinion, as the RAW doesn't really cover this exact scenario.
While the maze exists, and the dimensional lock is in place where the creature was mazed, if he passed an INT check to escape, he would find the exit, but not be able to leave (he would be forced back into the maze (the path of least resistance), or a sign would appear on the exit saying "only exit. Out of Order")
Which would infuriate the captive to no end, I'm sure.
Then when the maze ceases to be, it would be freed, but would appear outside of the dimensional lock (random closest place capable of holding the creature). Possibly taking damage as per the shunting rules, even though it’s a magical effect and not a solid object.
Again, this is just my opinion, and how I would run it.
...
Also, I would give the BBEG boss red dragon some means to counter this. It is very reasonable to assume that the real boss and superior to the captive dragon is aware of what happened to it's subordinate, possibly even watched what happened (either via magic or it's super-awesome natural vision) and would prepare appropriately (give this one some scrolls of plane shift tucked under some of it’s scales, and some other contingencies, as he would have some forewarning of the party and it's powers).
~P
Besides, the maze spell has a limited duration. Regardless of whether the creature can reappear or not, the maze spell ends. Wherever that leaves the dragon, it should be able to teleport/plane shift/whatever back to attack the party as it desires.
The thing is that the dragon didn't have plane shift and i don't think that teleport would work.
@Pirate
I agree with you, the big boss should be prepared for that.
That antimagic field won't cover the entire creature. You do get to pick which 10 ft area is covered though per a developer.
You could also cast dimensional anchor on yourself so the maze can not affect you if the antimagic field is your solution to the maze. It also nullifies your breath weapon and your spells turning you into an oversized fighter. Unless the fight is in close quarters where the party can't play keep away this will not be to your advantage.PS: Maybe the minion will come back and help his boss since he is not dead.
Antimagi field: Target 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you.
I consider you´re all of... you...your size no matters the size... isn´t it?
Yes, but the radius is smaller than the creature. As far as spells affecting the dragon they won't affect the dragon, but if you choose to put the emanation at one of the dragon's corner's it may envelop the fighter and shutdown his magic weapons, and any other items that are in that radius.
OK! Hit "post" too fast on my first attempt and it had some goofs. So I deleted it. Let's try that again.
From page 214's discussion on area. For an emanation, you pick the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point. This is a grid intersection.
For an antimagic sphere, which has a radius of 5 feet, you pick a grid intersection and the effect emanates from that intersection for 5 feet. This gives you four squares of protection (see the "5-foot radius" spell area on page 215.) If you're Large or smaller, you can comfortably exist inside your spell's area. If you're bigger, part of you will stick out.
Allowing an emanation to extend from the edge of a creature's space makes such spells more powerful the bigger you get, and since magic doesn't really care how big its spellcaster is, that's kinda weird.
PS:The radius is 10 ft but the general idea remains the same.
Yar.
@Pirate
I don't think that dimension lock is a solid object.
Anyway the combo isn't easy to pull off as it requires at base two 8th level arcane spells.
I agree, it is not. I only made that comparison because it is an effect that is preventing something from entering that space, and the other spell specifically mentions how it interacts with solid objects preventing the normal means of return, but does not mention anything else. It was the closest thing in the description/rules that gives a way of dealing with the particular circumstance.
I'm also trying to think about this as both a DM and a Player, being on the receiving end as both, what would be (imo) fair, and what would keep the game play moving smoothly onwards.
~P
Yar.
@Pirate
I don't think that dimension lock is a solid object.
Anyway the combo isn't easy to pull off as it requires at base two 8th level arcane spells.I agree, it is not. I only made that comparison because it is an effect that is preventing something from entering that space, and the other spell specifically mentions how it interacts with solid objects preventing the normal means of return, but does not mention anything else. It was the closest thing in the description/rules that gives a way of dealing with the particular circumstance.
I'm also trying to think about this as both a DM and a Player, being on the receiving end as both, what would be (imo) fair, and what would keep the game play moving smoothly onwards.
~P
I misunderstood your earlier post. I agree if the caster made the SR check that dragon could not return from the maze directly inside the locked area, but once he is shunted he is on the material place again and no longer traveling by extra dimensional means so he could then be shunted back into the locked area since that only affects planar travel, unless of course the PC's put an object there just so he could not land there.
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Yar!
While the maze exists, and the dimensional lock is in place where the creature was mazed, if he passed an INT check to escape, he would find the exit, but not be able to leave (he would be forced back into the maze (the path of least resistance), or a sign would appear on the exit saying "only exit. Out of Order")Which would infuriate the captive to no end, I'm sure.
Then when the maze ceases to be, it would be freed, but would appear outside of the dimensional lock (random closest place capable of holding the creature). Possibly taking damage as per the shunting rules, even though it’s a magical effect and not a solid object.
Again, this is just my opinion, and how I would run it.
I think that I´ll do this.
The red dragon will cast on himself dimensional anchor before attacking (although it can be dispelled), and I´ll give him some scrolls (plane shift). And if he got lost inside the maze, he will use that time to buff himself, instead of trying to exit.
Well I would go in a different direction then most commentators...
Your players are some sneaky gits and deserve to be rewarded for it. They made a clever combo and made a fight easyer. Theres nothing worse than a GM who's monster always saves, and who always seccond guesses your plans. Players quickly get fed up with this.....
let them have their victory.
Even those of us who say the combo won't take the foe out for several days agree that the combo clearly works to keep the foe out of the fight for the entire duration of the maze spell.
Knowing that your enemy won't be back for 10 minutes should ensure victory, either by not being there when it returns, or by having those 10 minutes to prepare.
It certainly sounds like a victory to me, and doesn't involve having to invent a "non-space" where the foe can be between the maze disappearing and the other spell-durations running out.
Well I would go in a different direction then most commentators...
Your players are some sneaky gits and deserve to be rewarded for it. They made a clever combo and made a fight easyer. Theres nothing worse than a GM who's monster always saves, and who always seccond guesses your plans. Players quickly get fed up with this.....
let them have their victory.
If they took out the big boss like this you might have to do something, as it would be anticlimactic, but in this case reward the players for being crafty and move along.
Players don't get fed up with fair play. They get fed up with cheating GM's. They might even get upset with being handed a victory. He can't really move along. The spell will end, and he was wanting to know how the rules work in that regard.
*Allowing a rule to work outsides it's bounds is a dangerous thing because it sets precedence, and just as bad, it ruins immersion. It if works a certain way one time the rule should always work that way.*I am assuming you are suggesting allowing the dragon to be perma-trapped which is the only way to hand wave the situation away.
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Well I would go in a different direction then most commentators...
Your players are some sneaky gits and deserve to be rewarded for it. They made a clever combo and made a fight easyer. Theres nothing worse than a GM who's monster always saves, and who always seccond guesses your plans. Players quickly get fed up with this.....
let them have their victory.
If they took out the big boss like this you might have to do something, as it would be anticlimactic, but in this case reward the players for being crafty and move along.
I´m interested in rules this time, because I thought it´s not clear. I´ve nothing against my player´s victory. Now I´m sure that this combo takes away the dragon 10 minutes. Yes, it´s a victory.
But...my players are more than just sneaky... kinda anticlimatic, sometimes. In another fight the wizard put a wall of force against the only door of the room, trapping an enemy liche in the first round with him and the other members of the party. Next round casted antimagic field covering almost all the space in the room (no exit possible because the wall of force remains inside of an antimagic field), and then the fighter grappled the liche. The other "hooligans" kicked and punched the grappled liche. That was like a no-rules tabern fight, with only one side being hitted.
I don´t want to tell how they kill queen Ileosa in CotCT...
Well I would go in a different direction then most commentators...
Your players are some sneaky gits and deserve to be rewarded for it. They made a clever combo and made a fight easyer. Theres nothing worse than a GM who's monster always saves, and who always seccond guesses your plans. Players quickly get fed up with this.....
let them have their victory.
If they took out the big boss like this you might have to do something, as it would be anticlimactic, but in this case reward the players for being crafty and move along.
I´m interested in rules this time, because I thought it´s not clear. I´ve nothing against my player´s victory. Now I´m sure that this combo takes away the dragon 10 minutes. Yes, it´s a victory.
But...my players are more than just sneaky... kinda anticlimatic, sometimes. In another fight the wizard put a wall of force against the only door of the room, trapping an enemy liche in the first round with him and the other members of the party. Next round casted antimagic field covering almost all the space in the room (no exit possible because the wall of force remains inside of an antimagic field), and then the fighter grappled the liche. The other "hooligans" kicked and punched the grappled liche. That was like a no-rules tabern fight, with only one side being hitted.
I don´t want to tell how they kill queen Ileosa in CotCT...
Was the wizard's player the same in all situations?
Well I would go in a different direction then most commentators...
Your players are some sneaky gits and deserve to be rewarded for it. They made a clever combo and made a fight easyer. Theres nothing worse than a GM who's monster always saves, and who always seccond guesses your plans. Players quickly get fed up with this.....
let them have their victory.
If they took out the big boss like this you might have to do something, as it would be anticlimactic, but in this case reward the players for being crafty and move along.
I´m interested in rules this time, because I thought it´s not clear. I´ve nothing against my player´s victory. Now I´m sure that this combo takes away the dragon 10 minutes. Yes, it´s a victory.
But...my players are more than just sneaky... kinda anticlimatic, sometimes. In another fight the wizard put a wall of force against the only door of the room, trapping an enemy liche in the first round with him and the other members of the party. Next round casted antimagic field covering almost all the space in the room (no exit possible because the wall of force remains inside of an antimagic field), and then the fighter grappled the liche. The other "hooligans" kicked and punched the grappled liche. That was like a no-rules tabern fight, with only one side being hitted.
I don´t want to tell how they kill queen Ileosa in CotCT...
Why didn't the lich leave the situation right then(round 1)? I know you were not expecting what happened, but my bad guys fight on their terms for the most part, and they all have escape spells if needed.
I only use them to avoid lop-sided fights though. If all the bad guys ran away it would get rather annoying.
You might also want to start using more than one enemy for boss fights so they can't focus on one character.
There's no need to call munchkinism or bad design or anything else like that:
From the maze spell:
On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space.
Therefore the dragon will reappear, he will do so in the nearest open spot that he possibly can appear in, without having to wait for rounds, and combat continues.
Even if you don't like that approach then look in the magic section where it defines teleport as traveling astral.
Since you are traveling from a point not in the d.lock astrally, you arrive at the d.lock astrally and astral creatures simply stay astral until the lock goes down.
It's a little bit more of a stretch but just as good of a solution.
If the dragon is in a different plane and something stops if from comming back, then it stays there. I would rule that it exists between the planes as it is being blocked as it tries to enter. It can't get past the lock, so it has to wait it out.
I'm not breaking any rules, I'm keeping it simple. The dragon is stuck untill the lock expires.
The problem is that the plane where the dragon is trapped stops existing after 10 minutes. When the maze spell ends, there is no longer an extradimensional place for the dragon to be in.
So, if you rule that it stays away until the lock effect ends, then the dragon must somehow be trapped in a non-existant place. Which is to create new rules that don't exist.
What we're suggesting here is the least immersion-breaking and least rule-breaking way to solve the situation.
Also, remember that the rules work the same way for PCs as they do for monsters. I've had NPCs who have used both of these spells. Do you think my players would be happy if I said "sorry, the Fighter is in some kind of limbo-existence for several days, with no possible way of escaping"? I don't.
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Was the wizard's player the same in all situations?
Yes, same campaign too(AoW)
On another note: Azaneal you seem to have your hands full with this group :D - Perhaps you need to punish ther munchkinness at some point... but not by saying: "your combo didn't work fully so the dragon's back after 10 min" - That will just start a rules discussion midgame.
Their end is near, in the form of a red great wyrm dracoliche...mwuahahaha! ;)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Might I suggest another direction?
The Maze spell creates the extradimensional space right? Well since it ceases to be, it's not that dimension lock doesn't keep the dragon from popping back to the prime, it's that the dragon is back because there's nowhere else to go.
In the Star Trek Novel Vendetta, the Enterprise traps a borg cube in a 'subspace bubble' (based on the episode where Beverly's trapped in her son's bubble) the planned result is that the bubble should collapse, taking the cube with it.
It doesn't work and the cube 'pops' back into normal space. The Borg ship doesn't have a 'subspace bubble popper' it just has enough resistance to make it back. Same idea for the dragon. It doesn't 'dimension hop' it's just that reality doesn't have anywhere else to put it.
It still gives them their victory of 10 minutes, but doesn't permanently lock out the dragon and make a two shot one kill BBEG removal trick.
Going forward, the BBEG should have Dim anchor up, or some kind of contingency spell that counters the trick. (can you spell turn a Maze spell? That would be funny, especially if the cleric does a readied action of "When he casts Maze, I cast dimension lock")
permancy the dimension lock and the opponent is gone for good!Yes, the wizard said the same. I said no, but the cleric said he will cast next time forbiddance (sigh). It will be his next step in the next combat... grrgrr...
I did notice that dimensional lock also has SR so he has to beat the SR again in order to keep the dragon away. The dragon might want to get a scroll of plane shift to avoid this situation next time, and kill the annoying caster first.I forgot this. But he´s a 18th level wizard, elf, with spell penetration and greater spell penetration.
A wyrm dragon banned from material plane in 2 rounds because he hasn´t a plane shift spell or scroll... (sigh again)
Forbiddance is expensive, ask to see where on the character's sheet he has bought the components for the spell already. 1,500 gp in holy water and incense + another 1,500 gp in holy water and incense for each 60 foot cube.
Not exactly a cheap spell to have the components 'sitting around' and a rather odd one to prepare since it takes 6 rounds to complete.
It could also hit party members with different alignments, and if he passwords it so it doesn't takes another 1,000 gp in incense + 1,000 gp in incense for each 60 foot cube.
Was the wizard's player the same in all situations?Yes, same campaign too(AoW)
Their end is near, in the form of a red great wyrm dracoliche...mwuahahaha! ;)On another note: Azaneal you seem to have your hands full with this group :D - Perhaps you need to punish ther munchkinness at some point... but not by saying: "your combo didn't work fully so the dragon's back after 10 min" - That will just start a rules discussion midgame.
They are not munchkins (or rather he isn't), it's just a very clever player playing a wizard, i think that it's kind of the point to combo spells in this way. Also as others have said the dragon would have been out for at least 10 minutes, that gives the party plenty of time to do a lot of things. So i am just going to say is to find a way to be more prepared for things.
PS. Since i don't know the player i am not sure that he isn't trying to cheat or anything, but from what the OP has said to us it seems that the player of the wizard is a very clever one.
I had the same problem when I DM'ed Age of Worms back in the day. It was my first attempt at DM'ing, and one of the players was extremely well-versed in all things D&D, as he had been playing and/or DM'ing for over 20 years.
So, he was playing very cleverly, using all the legal tricks in the book (and some that were at least bending the rules quite far). At the same time, I, being as unexperienced as I was, had basically nothing to counter his cleverness with. Everything I tried, he had the perfect counter for.
While I had some success at counteracting his experience in the early-to-mid levels, I basically just rolled over and died when the party reached 15th level and higher, which unfortunately led to a pretty anticlimactic last third of the campaign.
The more experience you get as a DM, the easier it will be to counteract the things your experienced players throw at you. Since you know the tricks, your long-lived and highly intelligent NPCs do too, and can prepare for them.
If you make it permanent I hope the dragon remembered to bring snacks or a ring of sustenance. otherwise He'll eventually starve to death. Not a terrible way to get rid of a big baddie like that.