General polymorph rules write
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
Alterself writes
"Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength."
One could reasonably assume that the bolded portion would logically entail that IF you did not change size, do NOT apply the size modifiers. I didn't think it ran like this, but the reading seems to imply it does. Can someone clarify?
You get the modifier for the spell independent of you starting size. The transformation magic alters your bones and muscles to the new shape and you gain the listed ability modifiers no matter what.
That is the design intent and part of the spell balance over older version of polymorph magic from earlier editions.
You get the modifier for the spell independent of you starting size. The transformation magic alters your bones and muscles to the new shape and you gain the listed ability modifiers no matter what.
That is the design intent and part of the spell balance over older version of polymorph magic from earlier editions.
That's how I had ruled previously.
I see nothing that supports that in the rules however.
In fact, if you are not Small or Medium, there is a chart, for you to 'size up' or down before you apply the effects of the spell.
Thazar is right. You apply the effects of the spell. If you size changes, you also apply the other effects (such as CMD, CMB, AC, Attack changes).
General polymorph rules write
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
Alterself writes
"Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength."
One could reasonably assume that the bolded portion would logically entail that IF you did not change size, do NOT apply the size modifiers. I didn't think it ran like this, but the reading seems to imply it does. Can someone clarify?
"Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
Since Alter Self *does* denote changes to ability scores contingent on taking a Medium or Small form, the ability scores do get modified when using Alter Self to assume a Small or Medium form, even if you were Small or Medium sized (respectively) prior to the magic. If you do not change size, "your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers" don't get changed, so Small -> Small gets +2 Dex from the spell but not the +1 size modifier to attack, or any other size-related bonuses. Medium -> Medium similarly gets +2 Strength.
(EDIT: It could be remarked that being modifiers of a non-stacking type (size), this designation should be obvious, but that's neither here nor there.)
The bolded portion you call out is talking about those latter changes, not changes to ability scores. Ability scores change as defined in the various spells, or if undefined by the spell, do not change.
The table in the Polymorph subschool description pertains to "normalizing" ability scores of targets that are not Small or Medium sized prior to applying the changes stipulated by the spell descriptions, so that the changes in the spell descriptions can be presented uniformly.
Thazar is right. You apply the effects of the spell. If you size changes, you also apply the other effects (such as CMD, CMB, AC, Attack changes).
+1.
The "apply the size modifiers as normal" does not refer to ability scores or effects granted by the spell, since they are not normal size modifiers.
It doesn't run like this. A Medium caster who changes into a quick Medium air elemental gets the +Dex, and into a stout earth elemental, the -dex and +Str and Con. Just like a Small caster does.
By the same token, they both can gain a benefit from either size Alter Self.
In fact, if you are not Small or Medium, there is a chart, for you to 'size up' or down before you apply the effects of the spell.
Wouldn't that rather suggest to you that the spells and listed bonuses were designed with medium (or small) creatures in mind, than that the listed bonuses for polymorphing into medium (or small) creatures are only supposed to apply to non small/medium creatures?
So one of the probably unintended consequences of this would be that a druid with Thousand Faces could, by constantly maintaining alter self to, say, look like themselves only with blue hair, get a free +2 to strength or dex depending on their base size?
I don't understand why a size bonus would apply if you're not actually changing size.
I think it is to keep it simple. It is much more fluid to just do the STR/DEX mod than to work out every aspect of a size change. Plus that +2 isn't gamebreaking.
It doesn't run like this. A Medium caster who changes into a quick Medium air elemental gets the +Dex, and into a stout earth elemental, the -dex and +Str and Con. Just like a Small caster does.
By the same token, they both can gain a benefit from either size Alter Self.
Remember, we're talking about alter self. You jumped over to elemental body, somehow. Just to keep from unintentionally confusing any new folks reading this, alter self wont let you take the form of an elemental.
So one of the probably unintended consequences of this would be that a druid with Thousand Faces could, by constantly maintaining alter self to, say, look like themselves only with blue hair, get a free +2 to strength or dex depending on their base size?
I don't understand why a size bonus would apply if you're not actually changing size.
Yes, my (16th level) druid can effectively keep up a +2 Str at all times, using 1000 faces/alter self. Now ask me how many times he uses his Str in humanoid form.
Never ever ever.
A good Druid build is either going to be a flying air elem caster, or they'll have gone heavy on physical stats and combat feats, to be a wild shaping melee build. The +2 to either Str or Dex won't carry over to wild shape.