I have a interesting concept for a diviner specialized wizard for a large group of pc's ( we have a total of 7 players) I was going to be a background info gatherer and soothsayer with a big old bow. the plan is to get to 10th level-ish and start getting ready to make arrows of slaying. in higher levels I thought it would be cool to lob these deadly missiles into combat.I could be a party buffer or controller in the meantime.
I thought the diviner route could make for a fun time knowing everything and magically scouting for trouble , or even ticking off the dm.
My brother in law called me a idiot after hearing this. Basically saying I would do better served as a arcane archer.
So the question is " is the diviner a workable concept to explore in a home-brew game or would i be better served as a arcane archer with some diviner background and items ?" ....I could just be a Idiot though
I have a interesting concept for a diviner specialized wizard for a large group of pc's ( we have a total of 7 players) I was going to be a background info gatherer and soothsayer with a big old bow. the plan is to get to 10th level-ish and start getting ready to make arrows of slaying. in higher levels I thought it would be cool to lob these deadly missiles into combat.I could be a party buffer or controller in the meantime.
I thought the diviner route could make for a fun time knowing everything and magically scouting for trouble , or even ticking off the dm.
My brother in law called me a idiot after hearing this. Basically saying I would do better served as a arcane archer.
So the question is " is the diviner a workable concept to explore in a home-brew game or would i be better served as a arcane archer with some diviner background and items ?" ....I could just be a Idiot though
If your main idea is to cast spells then go with the wizard. If you intend to be good at archery too then go arcane archer. Your attack bonus won't have you hitting a lot of things as a wizard, and at higher levels the monsters will be routinely making the save against those arrows.
That is exactly my point. I love the utilitarian nature of diviner spells and the bow would be for general defense later on with the creation of arrows of slaying . unless I get distracted by something shiny on the way. In a large group I don't feel like I have to maximize myself for a combat role. I do like the idea of casting true strike and taking aim with a massive death dealing arrow , and Ka-pow ...
That is exactly my point. I love the utilitarian nature of diviner spells and the bow would be for general defense later on with the creation of arrows of slaying . unless I get distracted by something shiny on the way. In a large group I don't feel like I have to maximize myself for a combat role. I do like the idea of casting true strike and taking aim with a massive death dealing arrow , and Ka-pow ...
So the bow is just there for you to have something to do? There is nothing wrong with that, but spending money(I don't know how much it cost to create slaying arrows), may be look at as a waste of money. I think your brother in law is unhappy that you are spending gold and spells on the archer concept even though it won't be all that helpful to the party, but he will probably let up as long as the wizard part of your character is doing its job.
As for the massive death dealing don't expect for a lot of failed saves, and as for damage many monsters have DR, and the arrow may not overcome it.
I say play the deviner. Sure you won't be hitting all that often with your bow but when you do I will be spectacular! In a fun game with lots of players optimization should never get in the way of a good concept.
Forget what your brother in law said. It's your character, I could easily optimize a Rogue with a broadsword, but I wanna play a knife fighter, it's your character, do what you want with it.
The main point of Arcane Archer is that the arrow he can make is a high DC, compared to a basic arrow of slaying.
Ultimately, do what you want. I think the Arcane Archer is a cool concept - if you want to go straight diviner, by all means.
The most important rule in making your character is to do what you want to do. Period. Ignore everyone else. Anything anyone tells you about character creation is full of it. Seriously. Play what you want, and (expletive) the rest of them!
I can only second what others have written: Play what you want to play. You should have fun, that is the important part.
What you have written so far rather hints at diviner. Using a bow is fine, but you won't hit stuff so well, that's right. Just be ready to use greater magic weapon to improve your to-hit chance, true strikes, and maybe arcane blasts (touch attack) to have some fallback options and you will be fine :-)
A regular Diviner with some good crowd control and some good buffs goes a loooong way. You won't really need a bow. With such a huge party, buff spells are even more powerful than normal. If you want to PING things for fun, you're better off with a wand of something to just drop some damage that you will hit easily with.
I can only second what others have written: Play what you want to play. You should have fun, that is the important part.
What you have written so far rather hints at diviner. Using a bow is fine, but you won't hit stuff so well, that's right. Just be ready to use greater magic weapon to improve your to-hit chance, true strikes, and maybe arcane blasts (touch attack) to have some fallback options and you will be fine :-)
Or better yet, take a feat and enchant your bow to the nines. Your big party will love you for 1/2 price weapons and armor. It's a serious force multiplier.
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I have never been impressed with Arcane Archer, save as an epic class after you've already acquired 9th-level spells. In a sub-20th (and especially sub 15th) game, they're weak compared to straight wizards, rogues and bow-fighters/rangers/barbarians/clerics/paladins.
Hmm.... INT-bump Barb1/AlchemistX swigs a INT mutagen for +4 more, rages, then ignores his bombs to start firing his composite strength-bow for 1d8+12.
At 2nd level.
Yikes.
(That class is broken, btw.)
I have never been impressed with Arcane Archer, save as an epic class after you've already acquired 9th-level spells. In a sub-20th (and especially sub 15th) game, they're weak compared to straight wizards, rogues and bow-fighters/rangers/barbarians/clerics/paladins.
Hmm.... INT-bump Barb1/AlchemistX swigs a INT mutagen for +4 more, rages, then ignores his bombs to start firing his composite strength-bow for 1d8+12.
At 2nd level.
Yikes.
(That class is broken, btw.)
Arcane Archers can be pretty solid. Honestly though, you're better off just going Eldritch Knight and using archery if you wanna mix magic and archery, at least until late levels when you run out of EK levels and need BAB and CL advancement from somewhere.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 3/Wizard +1 or Arcane Archer +1
Works pretty well. Though you are an archer who uses magic, not a wizard dabbling in archery. You actually end up just as good as a Fighter (a tiny bit less damage, a little less attack bonus, but with pretty darn good casting and a decent amount of skills). Adding Arcane Strike makes up for a bunch of the damage discrepancy, Heroism makes up a lot of things, and crafting feats are one of the best ways to be a more powerful character.
Are you as good at archery as a straight fighter? No. Are you as good at spellcasting as a straight wizard? Not even close. Are you a really good hybrid of the two who can DPR as well as provide great utility? Heck yeah.
Edit: Also, you aren't firing no +12 damage from strength arrows at 2nd level. You have a +12 Strength rated composite longbow? I'm not even sure you can by wealth/level.
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Also, you aren't firing no +12 damage from strength arrows at 2nd level. You have a +12 Strength rated composite longbow? I'm not even sure you can by wealth/level.
I stand corrected.... (Alchemists only add INT bonus to damage when throwing bombs.)
But, we can get pretty close: STR-bumper who only "dips" (four levels or less) into Alchemist for the mutagens and extracts. A mix/max concept would have STR:20, take a STR mutagen (+4 alchemical bonus) and an Enlarge extract (+2 size bonus, and arrows become 2d6) = 11.5 bonus damage over d8+0. ...a more reasonable build starts with a 15 or 17 STR and raises it to 18 at 4th (when everything is gelling together and cash is available for anything).
Wealth/level isn't a problem (at least in Society) because a STR bow (no matter how strong) is still a mundane weapon.
Also, you aren't firing no +12 damage from strength arrows at 2nd level. You have a +12 Strength rated composite longbow? I'm not even sure you can by wealth/level.I stand corrected.... (Alchemists only add INT bonus to damage when throwing bombs.)
But, we can get pretty close: STR-bumper who only "dips" (four levels or less) into Alchemist for the mutagens and extracts. A mix/max concept would have STR:20, take a STR mutagen (+4 alchemical bonus) and an Enlarge extract (+2 size bonus, and arrows become 2d6) = 11.5 bonus damage over d8+0. ...a more reasonable build starts with a 15 or 17 STR and raises it to 18 at 4th (when everything is gelling together and cash is available for anything).
Wealth/level isn't a problem (at least in Society) because a STR bow (no matter how strong) is still a mundane weapon.
Quick question: Won't those arrows become medium again as soon as they leave your space? I thought there was a rule about that, but I am not sure about it and if the alchemist's extract works the same way as the enlarge person spell...
The arrows do become medium again, though if you can cast Gravity Bow you can get the same result of doing 2d6 instead of 1d8. I don't think Alchemists get Gravity Bow, however there are ways around that if you're determined.
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Quick question: Won't those arrows become medium again as soon as they leave your space? I thought there was a rule about that, but I am not sure about it and if the alchemist's extract works the same way as the enlarge person spell...
Yes, they will. Which is why you have a quiver of Large arrows if you intend to use this tactic at all regularly, anyway.
Yes, they will. Which is why you have a quiver of Large arrows if you intend to use this tactic at all regularly, anyway.
Quick question: Won't those arrows become medium again as soon as they leave your space? I thought there was a rule about that, but I am not sure about it and if the alchemist's extract works the same way as the enlarge person spell...
This wouldn't work unless you tossed the quiver of large arrows on the ground before you cast enlarge person, then picked it up again and used it. Useful when you prebuff, not so useful if it happens in combat.
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Go for the Diviner if that's what you like. Also as for hitting things with your bow how about these feats
preferred spell (true strike)
quicken spell
spell perfection (true strike)
You'll need to spend a feat on heighten spell but it's quite useful. With these feats you should have less problems hitting things with your slaying arrows.
Maybe have a chat with your DM before going heavy into divination ("ticking off the dm", hmm, not a good idea in my book). Maybe (s)he plans an adventure that could easily be spoiled by too much divination, and you running into various types of nondetection spells all the time won't be fun for anyone.
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Arrows.... <shrug> I haven't checked Enlarged arrow rules in Path, but in 3.5, the arrow shrank to medium size but retained the damage increase (so the shrinkage was just eye-candy).
STR-bumper who only "dips" (four levels or less) into Alchemist for the mutagens and extracts. A mix/max concept would have STR:20, take a STR mutagen (+4 alchemical bonus) and an Enlarge extract (+2 size bonus, and arrows become 2d6) = 11.5 bonus damage over d8+0. ...a more reasonable build starts with a 15 or 17 STR and raises it to 18 at 4th (when everything is gelling together and cash is available for anything).
I forgot the barbarian rage part, so +4 more for those situations where you absolutely, positively need a 30 STR. :P