=D seriously dude you're causing strife.
There isn't really any "strife", just a difference of opinion over what is and isn't obvious. Different strokes for different folks.
Why ignore him? It's a valid question of the rules. The clarity of how attacks of opportunity interact with different actions was in question (specifically tripping a character standing up). As a DM I want to be able to use mechanics to make battles more dramatic without having to use a cut scene.
Ie. Big demon Overlord has knocked a hero to the ground (he's been tripped). As the character struggles to get to his feet the demon kicks the character in the side again thwarting his attempt to get up from the ground.
This kind of scenario occurs in fantasy novels and movies all the time. Unfortunately by RAW the character would just stand up with no hinderence other than potential damage taken.
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By RAW you can hold your action to attempt to trip him again.... You can still do these things especially with BBEG who often have exceptions to RAW for fun reasons.
Other threads have covered and the faq covers the tripping rules and how AoO interact with it.
I say in jest to ignore him because this combo is silly and ultimately flawed and should be immediately vetoed by GM. I've said it before, any person can use this if their GM lets them but many people have refuted his argument and now to me he seems to be just pushing their buttons.
I mean no insult and i didn't check this post for spelling so deal with it =D
By RAW you can hold your action to attempt to trip him again.... You can still do these things especially with BBEG who often have exceptions to RAW for fun reasons.
Other threads have covered and the faq covers the tripping rules and how AoO interact with it.
I say in jest to ignore him because this combo is silly and ultimately flawed and should be immediately vetoed by GM. I've said it before, any person can use this if their GM lets them but many people have refuted his argument and now to me he seems to be just pushing their buttons.
I mean no insult and i didn't check this post for spelling so deal with it =D
I know that there are exceptions for the DM but by RAW you could not play out that scenario because there is no way to actually cause someone to collapse as they are standing up.
If the BBEG delays his action the character still gets to stand up because the character was tripped on the BBEG's turn prior.
The confusion might also come from characters being able to stop an opponent from moving through a threatened square with an AoO (albeit with a feat mind you), but god forbid they actually try to stop them from standing up from prone! ;)
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Unless you're an experienced MMA fighter (and even then) you probably don't want to be on your back in a fight. Even in MMA often times they can just get up despite their opponents hitting them down... Just trying to show the dire consequences of being prone and a real world example of someone getting up from prone but not being tripped back prone. =D take it or leave it.
Unless you're an experienced MMA fighter (and even then) you probably don't want to be on your back in a fight. Even in MMA often times they can just get up despite their opponents hitting them down... Just trying to show the dire consequences of being prone and a real world example of someone getting up from prone but not being tripped back prone. =D take it or leave it.
If you're an experienced MMA fighter in pathfinder you would probably have a very good CMD too. There's more grappling/bullrushing than tripping in MMA.
well with your example a ranger monk ( do people even make those) could get about 15 attacks on a target if this worked. this would be where it becomes cheesy. generally speaking if your bending rules to the point where they just quite don't break I tend to not view it as seeking to actually understand the rule.Just for a fair comparison, in order to get 15 attacks, one would need to have roughly 10 or 11 uses of your ranger's hunter tricks which you can use once per day per 2 ranger lvls plus your wis mod. So a lvl 10 ranger could do this 10 times if he had a 20 wisdom, 30 dex, and the already mentioned feats. He can do this super attack once per day total and the attack spree ends the instant he misses or fails a trip maneuver.
If we took a different character say lvl 1 alchemist, 9 wizard. He could use telekinesis to throw 9 or 10 alchemical weapons in a turn and they would use touch attacks and deal d6+int mod damage with splash damage equal to 1+int mod. This idea is hardly breaking anything.
lvl 10 monk, lvl 5? ranger. BaB 15 while flurrying, medusas wrath 9 attacks ki hasted. probably a dex and wisdom of 22ish so 15 attacks with your trick. ( more if friends are next to the badguy)
so well say bob is the monk we have Suzy and Joe fighters both have combat reflexes.
bob is on the uber monster that strangely has a weakness to tripping. bob delays his turn.
Suzy and Joe move next to uber monster ready fir when he is prone.
bob un delays and uses target on the ground trip cheese( patent pending) Bon gets 15 attacks ( all but the last two at his highest BaB I think ) and triggers 6 attacks each from Joe and Suzy.
bob can repeat this every round using simpler trip cheese since he's still getting all those aoo from the two fighters.
the flaw I'n your wizard example is throwing 10 alchemist fire a round is a waste of time he can do better just with fireball he'll also quickly run out of alchemy items not I'n bags ( unless he runs around with a protective alchemical glass barrier around himself)
basically tripping people on the ground is silly and insisting it's legit removes from opponents the one defense they have against it. you cannot perpetually trip lock someone to death.
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I sometimes wonder about these discussions ...
Actually I liked most the detachable leg argument. Here is RAW how it works:
Step 1: Cut the real legs off. Might cause some HP damage but if you are high enough level you will survive.
Step 2: Get a craftsmen to make you some wooden legs. I haven't found a price for them but it can't be that expensive.
Step 3: ensure they have some mechanism - spring loaded - to detach them quickly. There are spring loaded sheats for daggers for the arms. So surely that must be possible.
Voila - we have q character with detachable legs. Whenever he is in danger to be tripped he just quickly detaches his legs.
RAW I can't see that you get any minuses to have wooden legs instead of real ones.
And to make them detachable is only the start. Now that they are artificial we can start to enhance them with magic. Permanent Expedicious Retreat on them to make you faster? Any more ideas?
I'm sure they can be turned into weapons or given other fancy properties.
Thod
I'm trying to figure out how many times someone has to post a link to the official ruling before we move a realism discussion (not rules) to a different thread.
I'm trying to figure out how many times someone has to post a link to the official ruling before we move a realism discussion (not rules) to a different thread.
I prefer not to think of Paizo employees' remarks on a messageboard as "official rulings". Especially considering that at one point two employees had posted two different answers to the same question on different occasions. If both of those were supposed to be official rulings, it would have made my head asplode.
I'm trying to figure out how many times someone has to post a link to the official ruling before we move a realism discussion (not rules) to a different thread.I prefer not to think of Paizo employees' remarks on a messageboard as "official rulings". Especially considering that at one point two employees had posted two different answers to the same question on different occasions. If both of those were supposed to be official rulings, it would have made my head asplode.
I can agree with this in general -- I try to whenever possible stick to either the text as written, the offical FAQ, or finally statements made on the board that are specifically given "offical" status by the person speaking. Such as a few from Jason, or Sean -- such statements are generally followed up quickly in the offical FAQ making this a bit easier too.
Yar!
Ie. Big demon Overlord has knocked a hero to the ground (he's been tripped). As the character struggles to get to his feet the demon kicks the character in the side again thwarting his attempt to get up from the ground.
This kind of scenario occurs in fantasy novels and movies all the time. Unfortunately by RAW the character would just stand up with no hinderence other than potential damage taken.
The problem with this is (other than novels and movies do not base things on game rules, but on what will raise theatrical tensions/drama, cool factor, and plot advancement), is this:
What is the BBEG doing when this happens? Is he standing over the fallen hero gloating, do nothing else save possible waiting for the hero to try and get up so that he can knock him back down again in a humiliating fashion (a.k.a. delay or readied action)?
Or is he focused on the good aligned dragon hovering over him, unleashing his full fury upon it (full attack action on the dragon), and just happens to notice the hero lowering his guard in order to get up, and kicks him (AoO)?
Or perhaps he's in the middle of a long ritual or casting a spell, and he happens to notice the prone hero at his feat lower his sword so that he can put his hand on the ground and push himself up... and while he's still casting, kicks him down again?
No. Even in these situations, it' not an attack of opportunity trip that knocks the hero back down again. It's a readied action, or a delayed action to act if the prone target does something other than lay there.
Someone who specializes in tripping does not have an aura of perma-prone around him. If he wants to keep someone down, he needs to focus on it (spend more than a single attack of opportunity per 6 seconds/round).
~P
Edit: also, if you want to apply game mechanics to the above novel/movie scenario, you'll notice that the heroes are usually badly beaten and bloody when this happens. Perhaps they are so injured that they are "staggered' (can only do a single move action or standard action a round), meaning that when the spend their move action to get up, and the BBEG used a readied action to knock them down again, that is in fact all that the hero can do. His turn is now spent. The only times I've seen a hero at seemingly full health get continually knocked down to the point where he literally can not accomplish anything, is when the BBEG is doing more of a grapple/pin by the rules (doesn't even need to be holding him, but is in a position where he can easily put his hand infront of the victims head to push it back down, literally keeping him pinned below him.
...and from a game point of view, I would hate it if anyone (you don't need to have Improved Trip to try and trip someone, it just makes you better at it) could prevent someone else from doing anything effective by keeping them prone all the time WITHOUT putting effort into it (ie: keeping them down with trip AoO's only). At that point, I'd just say "this person likes to trip people. You're essentially dead, as any action you do will be negated by him knocking you down again, even though he's not totally focused on you".